[X] Weapons (+2 Econ, +8 Martial, ???)
[X] Restore order (Main usage)
[X] Offensive (+1 Stability)
[X] No (-1 Stability, +1 Legitimacy)

Because going tools is fucking batshit insane. You guys want to send our entire army out on an incredibly perilous campaign they might now want to return from, all while withholding the best wargear in the world for them- because the economy. The fertile, vibrant economy producing goods that are literally priceless right now. The economy that is near utterly defenseless right now and sits close to a neighbor who's waiting for an opportunity to push our shit in.

So, in summary- send off the veterans of our war poorly equipped with poor morale (because they could have gone to war clad in god metal if there king wasn't a dipshit. Even if said half-assed army wins, it'll be incredibly worn down and will then be obligated to protect an economy from everyone led.

Don't be a moron, don't assume the Nomads are the only threat, don't assume we'll get time to rebuild a military, don't assume spurning one's crusaders will go over fine, don't assume anything less than a decisive victory is fine here- because all you're doing is making asses out of you and me.
Please don't insult people just because they don't agree with you
 
Oh wow everything is on fire.
Not sure if it's a good thing I mised the initial rush or if sleeping off the headache was worth it.

Diplomacy 13 (overflowing) (+2) [+1]->14 (overflowing) [+1]

The salt continues to flow

Economy 4 (+1)->-1

The Economy...does not.

Martial 10->5 (+1)

And we lost half our manpower, though veterancy is still in play?
Looks like this is the Carrion Eater bonus.

Stability 0->-2 (upset)

Mine Stability hit coupled to the Econ damage from their attack.
Damned rolls, whenever we deal with metal stuff like this happens...

Legitimacy 2 (dented)

Art 3->5

Overflow is so handy, we're going to need some Proclaiming next.

Prestige 9->8

And we lost some face from getting sneak attacked. Damned nomads.

Hospitals! Just in time for the biggest loss in manpower ever too!
The damage was catastrophic on both sides, but even as the People were taking losses they were also progressively grinding away at the nomadic tribes. The People might take two loses for every nomad slain, but they could easily take three or four losses and be able to bounce back, where the nomads would be crippled for generations to come. Also, with the Carrion Eaters scouring the battlefield, many of those who were injured might live to fight another day, or at least be able to return to their families and pass on wisdom and experience.
Aka what Germany learned in WWII. Doesn't matter so much how well you fight, not if you kill ten tanks and the eleventh is rolling out anyway.
Carrion Eaters saved the day here, we'd have lost much worse without them.
It also meant that the Blackbirds could ask the enemy wounded questions much more frequently.
And that is a great idea.
Intel from their wounded is a somewhat novel idea.

"We can confirm that we felled neither their king nor their heir," the head scout, Ymeshyn stated, causing Hathachyn to grunt in displeasure. They had killed enough to relieve the pressure for several years, but that left the possibility that the heir would round up more tribes and have another go next generation.
Damned Nomad Heroes.
Actually, didn't they JUST round up every tribe in the near-zone. Would need to go further away to get more dudes.
Which is leading to a cessation of Nomad raids all along the nearer border of the Steppes.

Carefully he listened to the reports and compiled together events in his mind. The destruction was intense, but they had eliminated the vast majority of the warriors they had engaged, and overall the scouts estimated that this totaled about two thirds of the entire nomad warrior force.

It took a few moments for Hathachyn to process this, and he immediately held up a hand and asked, "Wait, I thought we got more than that with this last battle?"

The scouts went back over things, and then there was a sudden realization that several people had pieces of a greater picture that they had not realized up until this moment were connected.

No, they had taken out more than two-thirds of the force they had fought over the past season in brutal combat, but had not engaged that final third.
Oh goddammit.
TWO Heroes.
The Stallion Tribes were still mostly intact, but word had reached them from the territories to the south: a large section of the nomads had bypassed them a snuck into the lightly defended south while the majority of the People's warriors were in the north dealing with the majority of the nomads. The nomads had been clever and had avoided contact with the larger settlements, but they had pillaged, raped, and murdered their way through Northshore before exiting out through the northern edge of Stonepen and eastern edge of the Stallion Tribes, heading north and east, no doubt to link up with the remainder of their forces and then escape with their ill-gotten gains.
And here I hate being right.
Our defenses were not enough, despite the claims to the contrary.
Our expansion had left us overstretched and the fortifications with big gaps.

The destruction of farms and granaries and the theft of animals soon enough was revealed to have had a major knock-on effect as there were thousands of displaced people and nowhere enough food locally to ensure that they would all be fed. For the first time in... ever... the People were facing a major famine in part of their territory. They were opening up what resources they had, but the king had pushed the granaries to their limits in order to move the large amounts of skilled labour needed for the new mine being opened, something that the People were already unhappy about. Riots erupted in Valleyhome and Redshore as the news got out, and the king was shaken by the raw need for blood the People wanted. While a few called for pulling their warriors back, far more were baying that the warriors should pursue the nomads and reclaim the people carried off by the nomads, and for many any arguments towards futility or that it would cripple the People if they continued to fight were merely signs of defeatism.
Cultural value adjustment event here I think?

Choose the primary focus of your first batch of iron goods
[] Tools (+8 Econ, +2 Martial, ???)
[] Weapons (+2 Econ, +8 Martial, ???)

Okay for tools and weapons here:
-Remember, 8 Econ buys us 16 Martial worth of chariots. 14 if accounting for the balancing.
-The Nomads had retreated out of range for half a generation, so I'm not sure who we'd be hitting with those weapoins until they return.
-This sets a cultural image of iron as well. Should it be recorded as first being used to kill our foes, or should be be recorded as first being used to save the harvests?

[] Restore order (Main usage)
[] Leave things be

Due to the rules, we should not take this if we take ANY Stability hits.
Pass.

Warrior distribution
[] Defensive (-1 Stability)
[] Offensive (+1 Stability)

[] Yes (+1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, Martial focused character becomes king)
[] No (-1 Stability, +1 Legitimacy)

And here, we have to choose between drawbacks as we cannot eat both:
-Defensive + Yes = Short term benefits. Defensive preserves our force and allows us to spend next turn fixing our Martial, but the King sets a terrible precedent for regime change in war.
-Offensive + No = Short term risks from pushing the war aggressively, however, it preserves precedent, and furthermore, it potentially might do enough damage to buy us a full turn(and give the Nomads the conclusion that the Ymaryn are fooking crazy). Down this route we need the Iron Tools, beccause it's necessary for soaking attacks with our Economy.
-Offensive + Yes = Short term benefits with a skilled warleader prosecuting a war aggressively, but long term wise it'd lead to militarization of our leadership and of course, changing leaders while in a crisis is asking for trouble. Down this route we need the Iron Tools, beccause it's necessary for soaking attacks with our Economy.

So my vote:
[X] Tools (+8 Econ, +2 Martial, ???)
[X] Leave things be
[X] Offensive (+1 Stability)
[X] No (-1 Stability, +1 Legitimacy)
 
[X] Tools (+8 Econ, +2 Martial, ???)
[X] Leave things be
[X] Offensive (+1 Stability)
[X] No (-1 Stability, +1 Legitimacy)

I'm only going to laugh when someone else gets a Stab hit and we risk getting one also no matter what we choose because of LoO.
 
So, it's all a wash, then. Walking and talking property slow the Ymrri down yet provide intelligence so that they can chase you down. Dead property just make the Ymrri chase you harder.
Nope. Dead property makes it hard to track you as it can't inform on you. You dispose of what is weighing you down to go faster. The stuff with the worse weigh to value ratio goes first. In terms of slaves that mans the most belligerent are removed as an example first.
Part of why I want martial is because the nomads aren't our only threat. TH and TS are mostly unblooded and interested in expansion our way. We need army more than we need two year's supply of grain in our stockpiles.
You do realize that economy is also manpower? Its available work force just as much as food. Economy builds things this way. Also, TH hasn't bugged us its a TS because they got stomped for causal raiding after they where asked politely to stop. They didn't get why The People had issues with being raided.
Don't be a moron, don't assume the Nomads are the only threat, don't assume we'll get time to rebuild a military, don't assume spurning one's crusaders will go over fine, don't assume anything less than a decisive victory is fine here- because all you're doing is making asses out of you and me.
You do realize we get iron weapons/tools at the start of the next turn as this is a vote for midterm with the first batch? This is about vengeance and little else. Fighting to the death is what The People want not the nomads.

I'd rather the army just whiff and calls it a day really, not that that part is not my choice. There is a small window for catching them or invading the lands of The People. Like a month or three over half a generation. After that its an out of range issue. Basically, the nomad's win condition is getting to the edge of the map and The People's win condition is forcing a battle. Protective Justice is what is forcing the issue to chase them down, but The People's troops aren't nomads and have a maximum range.

Winning or losing is secondary to chasing the offending nomads down. From a Protective Justice stand point, obviously the nomads dying ignominiously in a fire is the best option for public opinion.
 
Just to give some future planning

Under the current plan: (Offensive+Tools+Old King+No Order), 90% we'll end up at
Stability -2
Legitimacy 3
Econ 7
Martial ~8 but likely actually ~4 due to losses
I guess our plan then is
[Main] Restore Order
[Main] Grand Sacrifice
and our provinces will probably recover our lost martial

If we go with my plan: (Offensive+Weapons+New King+Order), 95% we'll
Stability 1
Legitmacy 1
Econ 1
Martial ~14 but likely actually ~11 due to losses
Plan:
[Main] Proclaim Glory
[Secondary] Change Policy - Balanced
[Secondary] ??? (Likely Expand Economy or Survey - Redhills)

Overflow is so handy, we're going to need some Proclaiming next.
Just to make sure you're aware, you're voting to stay at Stability -2 and boost legitimacy to 3. You're voting to send what's left of our army out to chase the nomads with no extra bonuses from either a strong Martial leader or from Iron weapons.
Really not sure why you say we're going to need Proclaim when you're voting for Legitimacy 3.

We could get to Stability 1 with 77% certainty, Stability 0+ with 95% certainty by going with the Martial Leader and Restore Order. Is the extra legitimacy and precedent of not switching leaders worth that to you? (Especially when it also means we're less likely to have our people die on the steppes and fail to rescue our people.)
 
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[X] Weapons (+2 Econ, +8 Martial, ???)
[X] Leave things be
[X] Offensive (+1 Stability)
[X] Yes (+1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, Martial focused character becomes king)

Going offensive and not using iron weapons is quite frankly stupid it almost guarantees our army will die at the very least choose the martial focus chief if you people choose offensive.
 
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Oh wow everything is on fire.
Not sure if it's a good thing I mised the initial rush or if sleeping off the headache was worth it.

Diplomacy 13 (overflowing) (+2) [+1]->14 (overflowing) [+1]

The salt continues to flow

Economy 4 (+1)->-1

The Economy...does not.

Martial 10->5 (+1)

And we lost half our manpower, though veterancy is still in play?
Looks like this is the Carrion Eater bonus.

Stability 0->-2 (upset)

Mine Stability hit coupled to the Econ damage from their attack.
Damned rolls, whenever we deal with metal stuff like this happens...

Legitimacy 2 (dented)

Art 3->5

Overflow is so handy, we're going to need some Proclaiming next.

Prestige 9->8

And we lost some face from getting sneak attacked. Damned nomads.


Hospitals! Just in time for the biggest loss in manpower ever too!

Aka what Germany learned in WWII. Doesn't matter so much how well you fight, not if you kill ten tanks and the eleventh is rolling out anyway.
Carrion Eaters saved the day here, we'd have lost much worse without them.

And that is a great idea.
Intel from their wounded is a somewhat novel idea.


Damned Nomad Heroes.
Actually, didn't they JUST round up every tribe in the near-zone. Would need to go further away to get more dudes.
Which is leading to a cessation of Nomad raids all along the nearer border of the Steppes.


Oh goddammit.
TWO Heroes.

And here I hate being right.
Our defenses were not enough, despite the claims to the contrary.
Our expansion had left us overstretched and the fortifications with big gaps.


Cultural value adjustment event here I think?

Choose the primary focus of your first batch of iron goods
[] Tools (+8 Econ, +2 Martial, ???)
[] Weapons (+2 Econ, +8 Martial, ???)

Okay for tools and weapons here:
-Remember, 8 Econ buys us 16 Martial worth of chariots. 14 if accounting for the balancing.
-The Nomads had retreated out of range for half a generation, so I'm not sure who we'd be hitting with those weapoins until they return.
-This sets a cultural image of iron as well. Should it be recorded as first being used to kill our foes, or should be be recorded as first being used to save the harvests?

[] Restore order (Main usage)
[] Leave things be

Due to the rules, we should not take this if we take ANY Stability hits.
Pass.

Warrior distribution
[] Defensive (-1 Stability)
[] Offensive (+1 Stability)

[] Yes (+1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, Martial focused character becomes king)
[] No (-1 Stability, +1 Legitimacy)

And here, we have to choose between drawbacks as we cannot eat both:
-Defensive + Yes = Short term benefits. Defensive preserves our force and allows us to spend next turn fixing our Martial, but the King sets a terrible precedent for regime change in war.
-Offensive + No = Short term risks from pushing the war aggressively, however, it preserves precedent, and furthermore, it potentially might do enough damage to buy us a full turn(and give the Nomads the conclusion that the Ymaryn are fooking crazy). Down this route we need the Iron Tools, beccause it's necessary for soaking attacks with our Economy.
-Offensive + Yes = Short term benefits with a skilled warleader prosecuting a war aggressively, but long term wise it'd lead to militarization of our leadership and of course, changing leaders while in a crisis is asking for trouble. Down this route we need the Iron Tools, beccause it's necessary for soaking attacks with our Economy.

So my vote:
[X] Tools (+8 Econ, +2 Martial, ???)
[X] Leave things be
[X] Offensive (+1 Stability)
[X] No (-1 Stability, +1 Legitimacy)


So @veekie I'm thinking, looking at this vote, that next turn should be.

Main Grand Sacrifice
Secondary Change Policy Balanced
Secondary Build Chariots

We will have 7 Econ and around 6 Martial going into the project turn (I'm thinking it will be less than 8 due to probable losses). This spends us down to 3 Econ and gets us to 8 Martial. Kinda ick on the Econ but it gets our Stability out of the crapper and it means our provinces will mostly want to Expand Econ, and probably not expand our frontage.

What do you folks think?
Adhoc vote count started by BungieONI on May 20, 2017 at 7:53 PM, finished with 37984 posts and 89 votes.
 
Okay for tools and weapons here:
-Remember, 8 Econ buys us 16 Martial worth of chariots. 14 if accounting for the balancing.
This isn't really true. 1 Marital = 1 Econ. Build Chariots takes an action (which could have given us 1 Econ) and 1 stored Econ to produce 2 Marital.
 
This isn't really true. 1 Marital = 1 Econ. Build Chariots takes an action (which could have given us 1 Econ) and 1 stored Econ to produce 2 Marital.

Build Chariots - Once the domain of rich nomad chieftains, there is now enough copper to make construction of this new design practical for the People and deployable on a large scale. Used: 4 times
* S: -1 Econ, +2 Martial
*M: -2 Econ, +4 Martial, other effects

1 econ = 2 martial
 
What do you folks think?
I estimate that we'll be at ~4 martial at the start of next turn, if we're lucky. This leaves us at ~6 Martial and 4 Econ with Stability 0 before province actions. They'll likely be rebuilding our military since it's been so heavily damaged.

[Main] Restore Order
[Main] Grand Sacrifice

Gives us approximately the same province actions (rebuilding our army) but with an average of 1.3 more stability (thanks to GG).

1 econ + 1 action = 2 action equivalents = 2 martial. Seriously, read what he said.
 
[X] Tools (+8 Econ, +2 Martial, ???)
[X] Leave things be
[X] Offensive (+1 Stability)
[X] No (-1 Stability, +1 Legitimacy)
 
Yeah, but as a [Main] 2 econ + 1 action = 4 martial.
A [Main] is 2 action-equivalents...

Anyway, looks like we're voting to remain at -2 stability and to make iron plows and send our warriors to die. I guess I'll stop arguing if that's what people want.

I still don't see why everyone cares that much about Legitimacy. It's important, yes, but Stability -2 is not the time to care about Legitimacy dropping to 1. Legitimacy is a cap on stability, and that means that when our Stability is well below it anyway, it doesn't matter.

Stability this low is a lot worse than Legitimacy dropping to low positives. We literally have riots in the streets, that's worse than people thinking that the king selection process is broken.
 
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I estimate that we'll be at ~4 martial at the start of next turn, if we're lucky. This leaves us at ~6 Martial and 4 Econ with Stability 0 before province actions. They'll likely be rebuilding our military since it's been so heavily damaged.

[Main] Restore Order
[Main] Grand Sacrifice

Gives us approximately the same province actions (rebuilding our army) but with an average of 1.3 more stability (thanks to GG).


1 econ + 1 action = 2 action equivalents = 2 martial. Seriously, read what he said.
I may be irrationally wary of RoO but this kind of setup vote is actually one I am perfectly okay with.

Still leaves us on expansion which will hurt sooner rather than later.

How about.

[Main] Restore Order
[Secondary] Grand Sacrifice
[Secondary] Change Policy Defensive or Balanced

This will negate the bad part of RoO and keep our provinces from making us more vulnerable.

And as to the current vote I don't think it's the max legitimacy it's that people are uber paranoid about !!sudden implosion!! due to RoO. The Legitimacy is kind of incidental. With the current vote we do not gain or lose stability and should be able to fix it next turn.

I haven't voted because I merely wish to watch for this one. To conflicted to really decide beyond abstaining and I don't want to argue or debate over a vote choice.
 
And as to the current vote I don't think it's the max legitimacy it's that people are uber paranoid about !!sudden implosion!! due to RoO. The Legitimacy is kind of incidental. With the current vote we do not gain or lose stability and should be able to fix it next turn.
Just to clarify: we have a 0% chance of death and a 0% chance of ending up below -1 stability by taking the Martial king and Offensive, no matter what RoO we do. In that case the bonus RoO stability is easily worth it, a 5.5% chance of -1 for a 77.5% chance of +1 (only +1 due to the legitimacy capping it)

AFAIK, People don't want the Martial king because of the legitimacy drop and the associated narrative effects from switching kings in a crisis. I don't want them either, but I don't want Stability -2 even more. This would be a peaceful transition, the king stepping down due to the current state of emergency.

To repeat myself: (accurate to ~0.1%, assumes 10% for GG trigger)
['Offensive', 'OrderNo', 'KingNo']
-1.80006 average stability at end (excluding deaths)
stability probabilities
-2:90.003%
0:9.997%

['Offensive', 'OrderYes', 'KingYes']
0.71969 average stability at end (excluding deaths)
stability probabilities
-1:5.576%
0:16.879%
1:77.545%

People prefer the -2 stability option to the 1 stability option due to the legitimacy reduction associated with it, at least that's the only argument I've seen. (The narrative effects of the Martial hero taking over is shown in the stats via the Legitimacy reduction, and our people are still peaceful when not being attacked thanks to Symphony so he'll almost certainly step down once the crisis is over)

I don't get it, but that's the arguments that I've seen repeatedly, so oh well. KingYes+OrderNo gives Stability 0 with 100% certainty, if you really don't like gambling.
 
[X] Tools (+8 Econ, +2 Martial, ???)
[X] Restore order (Main usage)
[X] Offensive (+1 Stability)
[X] Yes (+1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, Martial focused character becomes king)

About 66% of the nomads are already dealt with, we don't need the weapons now in order to drive them off, also High Eco with offensive means our provinces will get us troops.
Adhoc vote count started by SpeckofStardust on May 20, 2017 at 8:44 PM, finished with 38004 posts and 100 votes.
 
[X] Tools (+8 Econ, +2 Martial, ???)
[X] Leave things be
[X] Offensive (+1 Stability)
[X] No (-1 Stability, +1 Legitimacy)
 
[X] Tools (+8 Econ, +2 Martial, ???)
[X] Leave things be
[X] Offensive (+1 Stability)
[X] No (-1 Stability, +1 Legitimacy)

Going to have to agree with Veekie here. Chasing after the Nomads without iron weapons will likely hurt a lot but i think the tools will be worth it. Hopefully we can make iron weapons next turn or the turn after.
 
Martial would be at least good, and the current king is absolutely average for everything. As for the war, had you not been facing strategic geniuses the nomads would be gone for a generation or two, and as it is have probably been locally depleted to the point that they won't bother you anyway... but then again heroic leaders.
Damn, we killed so many dudes they went and imported more and we killed those too.

The Steppes will have an era of peace for a time I see.
It makes more sense if you remember that those were nomads from other nomad's tribes. They got suckered in and foddered... which means that their women and stuff can be assimilated as a conquer's dessert.
...bloody genius move.
Actually, no, the king is supposed to serve for life or until obviously physically incapacitated, at which point they go into honourable retirement. Forcibly retiring the current chief, who also didn't exactly do anything wrong, there's just a major crisis ongoing, is not something that is normally done.
I remember we still have ritual tests of competence right? Failing them is grounds for retirement at least.
It's a distinct possibility. Do remember that Julius and Augustus cemented their power by essentially riding long enough crises that they were able to consolidate "emergency" power into enduring power.
Yeah, this sort of thing is a major vulnerability

If I remember right something like 1 Econ and 6 Martial.
So they lost 1 martial from the clash. That's good for us at least, since they'd compare favorably with the Nomads with our backing.

Yes, but we can carve a great cultural scar across the northern steppes that will endure for millennia to come and remind them not to fuck with us, giving us more breathing room to focus on trees.
Naw, these are nomads. "Eh, that guy's ancestors must be huge pussies, we can take em."
Nothing in particular that you noticed.
Hmm, sounds like they went around with the brass, trying to get a weapon made of it, but never managed anything more than a few pieces of regalia for their Heroes?

Oh right, do we have brass samples now?
Weapons would help you considering it's giving us a massive boost in martial. A guy skilled with a stone club is getting killed by a guy with a iron mace 10/10 unless the dude is retarded. We are focusing on our military with our Carrion Eaters reducing our losses giving us a plus 1 martial as well so go all in on weapons and capture the fleeing nomads fat with our loot and people.
Actually that's mostly if they are equally skilled.
A superior weapon lets you leverage more skill, but won't let a line infantryman with an iron weapon beat a warrior elite with a stone one on his own.

ARMOR now, probably could.

Everyone don't forget our provinces can expand their economies on their own and having a point of econ is fine. Boosting our martial by 8 so it reaches 14 will help us take down one or both of the hero units and calm down the cries for blood and a new King.
Uh...didn't notice before, but:
-Isn't Martial the only stat which is dangerous to overflow?
-Isn't our maximum safe level 12?
So @veekie I'm thinking, looking at this vote, that next turn should be.

Main Grand Sacrifice
Secondary Change Policy Balanced
Secondary Build Chariots

We will have 7 Econ and around 6 Martial going into the project turn (I'm thinking it will be less than 8 due to probable losses). This spends us down to 3 Econ and gets us to 8 Martial. Kinda ick on the Econ but it gets our Stability out of the crapper and it means our provinces will mostly want to Expand Econ, and probably not expand our frontage.

What do you folks think?
Assuming we can take things off War Missions, yes. But if the heir lives, then we're probably in for one more turn of Offense policy instead.
 
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