Walls and watchtowers can't defend the farmers, only provide early warning and a place of temporary safety.
Actually, field walls like the Xohyssiri use can. You just need to spam enough walls to fortify every settlement and they'd start upping the fields. Which would tarpit the Nomads enough for allied cavalry to go bump them.


We're actually established enough through tradition and a strong bureaucracy that we're probably never going to end as martial-focused as the worst 'martial elite' cultures. Magwyna and son are tough examples to ignore and the honour trait is pretty well mitigated by our other traits- the earlier Stallion Tribe leaders probably didn't even share all of them and they actually toed the line shockingly well.

I agree that we need to be careful in what martial-building actions we take, but we certainly avoid them forever in fear of societal change. If we're trying to avoid elites, I'd suggest laying off the 'Build Chariots' action in particular for a while, as chariot archers specifically are a 'train from birth' position that particularly risks establishing martial-focused hereditary nobles. (As opposed to the administration-focused hereditary nobles we've already got.)

'Expand Warriors' is probably pretty safe though.
Pretty much. Warriors still have an easier time breaking into politics due to highly visible achievements, but we value administrative skill the most in our kings
 
And there's still the Carrion Eaters and Blackbirds.
I did specify 'front line' troops. Those are medics and stealth troops, respectively. The Blackbirds were explicitly noted to be creepy and "outside" of society, and with the Carrion Eaters being shamans it probably goes the same for them as well.

The reason I mentioned the actual up-front fighty people is because they're the ones most closely tied to our society at large. They are the subject of the most amount of attention and are the ones who can most leverage their status as warriors to gain advantage within the People.
 
Coke, made from coal in an oxygen-free oven. We aren't getting that so easily, though China was using it since 400 AD

We don't need coke we have charcoal, they are interchangeable, and charcoal is more pure than coal, anything else is about the disponibility o charcoal versus coal, and the quality of charcoal. Charcoal of better quality is more desirable than coal, because they have less impurities winch would taint the metal alloy.
 
I'm somewhat amused that people have forgotten that the Thunder Speakers still want a rematch. Unless the hilarity option of the nomads attacking in force only to get rear ended by the TS and sandwiched by The People's troops. As much as you ever more need to Economy you may get smacked with a TS based second wave in a generation.

Iron should unlock melee elites as well. And there's still the Carrion Eaters and Blackbirds.
What iron should do first is upgrade the arrowheads. Those are small and easy to practice on. Upping their armor piercing would have the best effects for the least effort in the current military build. Unless the dice manage to bring horse shoes or calotropes into the mix.

Sure upgrade wheels due to reinforcement and melee weapons would help, but nothing screams miserable surprise than suddenly your armor stops working well against their ranged weapons. You likely can't even figure out what the hell is going on until post battle.
 
Walls and watchtowers can't defend the farmers, only provide early warning and a place of temporary safety.
Defending the farmers is what our existing warriors are meant to achieve. The walls are a multiplier of their strength in regard to defensive wars.

Some warriors are necessary; enough warriors to make us militaristic and patriarchal are not.
 
We don't need coke we have charcoal, they are interchangeable, and charcoal is more pure than coal, anything else is about the disponibility o charcoal versus coal, and the quality of charcoal. Charcoal of better quality is more desirable than coal, because they have less impurities winch would taint the metal alloy.
Yeah, just it's FAR more available, so it matters for economy of scale.

We only really need the limestone. Such a useful rock.
What iron should do first is upgrade the arrowheads. Those are small and easy to practice on. Upping their armor piercing would have the best effects for the least effort in the current military build. Unless the dice manage to bring horse shoes or calotropes into the mix.

Sure upgrade wheels due to reinforcement and melee weapons would help, but nothing screams miserable surprise than suddenly your armor stops working well against their ranged weapons. You likely can't even figure out what the hell is going on until post battle.
Depends. Our arrows already penetrate the regionally available armor pretty effectively at present. I personally expect a new elite category under maces/clubbers packing a bigass, iron studded and reinforced demon club. Trained from youth to be extra swole.
 
Depends. Our arrows already penetrate the regionally available armor pretty effectively at present. I personally expect a new elite category under maces/clubbers packing a bigass, iron studded and reinforced demon club. Trained from youth to be extra swole.
While a logical upgrade its not really useful versus nomads... seeing as they are seemingly all on chariots. Clubs like that are useful versus infantry, particularly armored infantry, so until someone figures out a way to stop the horse chariot spam its of limited use. Particularly as those are best for the type of terrain that chariots aren't. In city those work fine, in broken lands as well... two handed clubmen without shields are asking to be chewed up by chariot archers.
 
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Well since we have hereditary warriors now, our warriors are going to be as big as our neighbors now, since they will have high protein diet and genetics on their side.
 
Yeah, just it's FAR more available, so it matters for economy of scale.

In truth in depends of the actual charcoal industry, because producing high yeld charcoal is a little more tricky than mining coal, but the moment you get the technology and the right types of trees, you get totaly indepedent of having coal deposits in your terriory.

And charcoal can be used to restore degradaded land and turn them on forest for more charcoal production, so if we have a large territory and forest we can do it it using charcoal than coal.
 
While a logical upgrade its not really useful versus nomads... seeing as they are seemingly all on chariots. Clubs like that are useful versus infantry, particularly armored infantry, so until someone figures out a way to stop the horse chariot spam its of limited use. Particularly as those are best for the type of terrain that chariots aren't. In city those work fine, in broken lands as well... two handed clubmen without shields are asking to be chewed up by chariot archers.
Maybe, but nobody else has chariot archers in significant numbers yet, so chariot warriors basically means ride up, dismount and fight.

So clubbers like that would ride up, dismount, break face and mount again?
 
Defending the farmers is what our existing warriors are meant to achieve. The walls are a multiplier of their strength in regard to defensive wars.

Some warriors are necessary; enough warriors to make us militaristic and patriarchal are not.
I think what he means is to shift our focus from "a relative low number of chariot archers which are one bad engagement away from getting wiped out once someone figures out a hard counter" to "Good mix of frontline dudes that are supportet by chariot archers"
 
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The thing is that elite chariot archers are rather difficult to just counter and because of their mobility they are also very hard to all pin down.
 
Maybe, but nobody else has chariot archers in significant numbers yet, so chariot warriors basically means ride up, dismount and fight.
The only faction we know of with chariot archers is the nomads. The People haven't looked to hard at other militaries recently. This is more a matter of fighting the current war, then the upgraded clubmen being useless.
So clubbers like that would ride up, dismount, break face and mount again?
A good tactic for base raids and armies with in range basses or infantry, rapid deployment is a good counter measure to military movements. APCs of the day are larger chariots (next step up from driver and archer is armored troop carrier)... also likely very useful for evacuating the injured troops. Its sad that it took until Napoleon to get the idea of halving veteran troops to reuse them into effect. Seriously, the ambulance is something Napoleon created after noting a week later veteran troops were still alive and wounded all across the battlefield. Learning that this wasn't part of SOP gave him one of the greatest moments of WTF?! in his life. Recycling his troops (and healing the other guys troops they abandoned) was one of his great innovations.

The People are equipped with the mentality to do this.
 
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I just wany my simple yet extremely powerful pike wall. But with our Honour
value emphasising individual warriors it probably is not happening any time soon.

Seriously, look at Romans: they clearly were rocking Quantity + Loyalty. As did Prussians or whoever.
 
I just wany my simple yet extremely powerful pike wall. But with our Honour
value emphasising individual warriors it probably is not happening any time soon.
That works on chariots... unless they have really, really good shields its less effectively on elite shoot and scoot units. They just circle and snipe you to death if your just stand still for them.

To take out chariot archers you need ranged units with good aim and/or prepared terrain to really counter them in the field.
 
Steppe destruction
[X] [Main] Build Iron Mine
[X] [Secondary] Study Health
[X] [Secondary] War Mission - Northern Nomads
[X] Change Policy - Offense

Provinces: [Main] War x3

Stallion Tribes: [Main] War, [Main] Build Chariots

The dead lay strewn about the open fields, the sea of yellow and green grass trampled by hoof and wheel and foot and stained with blood. Hundreds of chariots and thousands of warriors on both sides had brawled it out in a series of running battles and skirmishes. The People had decided that they were not going to accept the attacks against them just lying down, and had mobilized their forces to wipe out the tribes attacking them. The damage was catastrophic on both sides, but even as the People were taking losses they were also progressively grinding away at the nomadic tribes. The People might take two loses for every nomad slain, but they could easily take three or four losses and be able to bounce back, where the nomads would be crippled for generations to come. Also, with the Carrion Eaters scouring the battlefield, many of those who were injured might live to fight another day, or at least be able to return to their families and pass on wisdom and experience.

It also meant that the Blackbirds could ask the enemy wounded questions much more frequently.

As War Chief Hathachyn sat upon his chariot and drank from a waterskin in the heat of late afternoon in the summer, he listened in as the scouts and talliers of the dead gave their reports.

"We can confirm that we felled neither their king nor their heir," the head scout, Ymeshyn stated, causing Hathachyn to grunt in displeasure. They had killed enough to relieve the pressure for several years, but that left the possibility that the heir would round up more tribes and have another go next generation. Carefully he listened to the reports and compiled together events in his mind. The destruction was intense, but they had eliminated the vast majority of the warriors they had engaged, and overall the scouts estimated that this totaled about two thirds of the entire nomad warrior force.

It took a few moments for Hathachyn to process this, and he immediately held up a hand and asked, "Wait, I thought we got more than that with this last battle?"

The scouts went back over things, and then there was a sudden realization that several people had pieces of a greater picture that they had not realized up until this moment were connected.

No, they had taken out more than two-thirds of the force they had fought over the past season in brutal combat, but had not engaged that final third.

Hathachyn felt a sinking feeling in his gut and immediately ordered the camps to pack up and begin a march back into the People's territory. He could only pray to spirits and ancestors that his assessment was wrong, that...

The Stallion Tribes were still mostly intact, but word had reached them from the territories to the south: a large section of the nomads had bypassed them a snuck into the lightly defended south while the majority of the People's warriors were in the north dealing with the majority of the nomads. The nomads had been clever and had avoided contact with the larger settlements, but they had pillaged, raped, and murdered their way through Northshore before exiting out through the northern edge of Stonepen and eastern edge of the Stallion Tribes, heading north and east, no doubt to link up with the remainder of their forces and then escape with their ill-gotten gains.

The destruction of farms and granaries and the theft of animals soon enough was revealed to have had a major knock-on effect as there were thousands of displaced people and nowhere enough food locally to ensure that they would all be fed. For the first time in... ever... the People were facing a major famine in part of their territory. They were opening up what resources they had, but the king had pushed the granaries to their limits in order to move the large amounts of skilled labour needed for the new mine being opened, something that the People were already unhappy about. Riots erupted in Valleyhome and Redshore as the news got out, and the king was shaken by the raw need for blood the People wanted. While a few called for pulling their warriors back, far more were baying that the warriors should pursue the nomads and reclaim the people carried off by the nomads, and for many any arguments towards futility or that it would cripple the People if they continued to fight were merely signs of defeatism.

Somewhat fortunately the mine had started producing iron quickly and early and thus the first results were almost ready to go into distribution. There would be new tools and weapons, but the king had given an initial order for the majority to be...

Choose the primary focus of your first batch of iron goods
[] Tools (+8 Econ, +2 Martial, ???)
[] Weapons (+2 Econ, +8 Martial, ???)

Also somewhat fortunately the work of Hygurtyn had been propagated out to other shamans and now every shrine - which was basically in every settlement in order to distribute the sacred wardings - had someone who understood his concepts, and many of the major settlements would now have places of healing to deal with the critically wounded or spiritually disturbed in a much more practical manner than before, which would mitigate the losses somewhat - at the very least the next generation of warriors would not be as deprived of the experiences of their elders as they might have been. That was unfortunately cold comfort for the current generation, other than sometimes reducing the number of families furious at the king when warriors were sent in to break up riots. As it was, the king was having a hard time trying to maintain order and more significant deployments of force might be needed...

Attempt to restore order?
[] Restore order (Main usage)
[] Leave things be

Warrior distribution
[] Defensive (-1 Stability)
[] Offensive (+1 Stability)

And then, then there were the calls that the king should be replaced with someone more militarily competent right now. While someone like that might actually be able to run down the nomads and recover the people, it would likely set a terrible precedent for the future and damage the institution of the king. Unfortunately, unless they did something drastic the People would likely lose faith in the system and then... and then there would likely be insurrection and war.

New king?
[] Yes (+1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, Martial focused character becomes king)
[] No (-1 Stability, +1 Legitimacy)
AN: The nomads with their two heroes got two crits on their campaigning. As such, the rest of the staff has already been notified and I am tagging @ManusDomine who has been keeping tabs on this thread for administrative purposes. I expect molten salt at this point, but keep it to merely focused solar power rather than a thorium reactor at the very least, okay? As always, be excellent to each other, and remember that this won't be the end of the game

EDIT: Also, remember that Restore Order starts with a decrease of stability by 1, so be careful with your choices.
 
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[X] Weapons (+2 Econ, +8 Martial, ???)

This is an easy choice

[X] Restore order (Main usage)

Main at least gives us good odds.

[X] Offensive (+1 Stability)

[X] No (-1 Stability, +1 Legitimacy)

These two cancel out so no loss.
 
[X] Tools (+8 Econ, +2 Martial, ???)
[X] Restore order (Main usage)
[X] Offensive (+1 Stability)
[X] No (-1 Stability, +1 Legitimacy)
 
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