@Academia Nut

for the military advisor - if you were their commander, how would you defend the Dead Priest Capital with their 3 walls from foreign attack or slave uprisings? (maybe useful in the future i.e. crowd control, sieges, city planning)
for the spirit advisor - should we export our gods as well, and who would be the most receptive to it? (victory through conversion?)
for the trade advisor - can we put a permanent trade house in the Dead Priest capital? (i was thinking that this would eventually lead to an Embassy or some sort of Trade Enclave)
 
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Brass would be cool I guess, though tbh it's not the most useful of metals other than for casting, which I guess would let us make tubes, statues, or, coolest yet, bells. acc. to veekie we don't even need zinc we can just use lead and pray our people don't use it in cooking utensils.
... speaking of tubes, weren't people discussing pipe systems a few pages ago?
Brass sounds like it might be good for development of plumbing...
 
As far as I can tell, we've invested into Art only when strictly necessary. This naturally leads to our ceramics being behind. We promote practical pieces and volume of production. Disposable ceramic chamber pots, bricks, furnaces, etc.

Whereas the Xohyssiri have the following castes demanding art and luxuries:
-Priests
-Cavalry-Nobles
-Warrior-Farmers

Which incentivizes them to make more.
Also clay is more available in the lowlands than in our parts. Simple geography makes it easier to develop.
Well it's certainly a matter of pride. And an actual issue because good refractory ceramic => More metal.

If we look at or neighbors and all polities we know of:

We are a ways ahead of the Nomads in pottery. They are not sedentary enough to really get into it.

We are ahead of our Thunder Friends(Thunder Speakers), we have little indication that they are doing anything which requires things like glazing or super kilns.

We are slightly ahead of the HK. We don't know enough to say one way or the other.

We have at least parity with the MW, and with their recent mysterious advance we probably are slightly behind.

And then the Xoh are solidly ahead of us.

Another concern on the Almighty List of Shit We Need To Do.

... speaking of tubes, weren't people discussing pipe systems a few pages ago?
Brass sounds like it might be good for development of plumbing...
Copper in general is good for potable water pipes. This is because it is biostatic and microbes and bacteria don't like to grow on it. This feature was incidentally used by the Egyptians in their piping and kept them from some of the more severe waterborne diseases.
 
We'd probably have stagnated pretty fast if it weren't for the LoO line. That thing is magic for a culture like ours

Well, yes, but we do have it, fortunately.
Now we need something to balance out Observance, or to evolve it to prevent piling up weird beliefs and shit.

Overall, I understand where Trade faction is coming from, but think that having a copper right now will do us good, and I want to do Trade Policy anyway, because all that is under it - art, luxuries, trade missions - is something we could really use.

I would totally go for 4 turns of Defensive policy after 2-3 turns of Trade. We'll get whatever provinces we wanted and, hopefully, boats by this time.
 
We will get access to poppy seeds and cotton. @veekie is concerned that we will suddenly lose the knowledge of what it looks like. This seems suspect to me? Shall we ask the almighty QM? Personally I think that even if we lose it now, we can still get it back later, for the reason that a medicinal herb, especially a painkiller, is valuable. With salt gift it makes sense to me that they may trade their own valuable things to us, like poppy, without our asking. [4]
Correction on a few factors:
-We do not actually know what Poppy looks like. We have a second hand description written down of a magic flower that eases pain, possibly of how it might be used, but without an actual sample, it's going to vanish into our anal retentive mountains of records of curiosities. The only certain way to preserve that knowledge based on Ymaryn's culture is to find a practical application for it. Furthermore, writing is imprecise with intangible elements like pain, and colors, which historically tended to shift meaning over time.

-Secondly, the Highlander god of poison is not well loved. I suspect they might not consider it a good thing per se to offer. Not a certainty, but more chancy than I'd like, because Opium is the last piece of the chalcolithic medicinal tech tree. If we get it, we have literally the best possible medicine.
--If additional persuasion is needed, recall how opium was presented in the Odyssey. An island of poppy eating people, who are alive, but do no work but laze around eating magic flowers. You really don't want to lose the info of what it's good for. It just sounds like poison otherwise.

More seriously metal helps with our infrastructure and that is of course a core part of our civ. We can expect to see run on effects to grabbing it for the next couple of centuries. It specifically helps the Megaprojects we are doing right now. Finishing those quickly would let us do other things. Like planting trees. [2b]
For this element, keep in mind that we are likely to finish the Garden megaproject immediately, with or without metal. While doubtlessly useful, I would like to highlight that the losses from getting it next turn versus getting it this turn are minor.
The crux of my concern is claiming that "this is our last chance to safely send a trade mission" is being not entirely accurate. I think it is more accurate to say "this is our last chance for the next 3 to 5 turns to safely send a trade mission". The Lowlands will always go to war, but I think we should also internalize the flip side of that cosmic truth, that the Lowlands will always become temporarily peaceful. [3b]
I would also highlight that the last peaceful period in the lowlands was close to 10 turns ago and only lasted two turns.
Lowland trade windows are small, and should be taken advantage of where possible.

Additionally, with our high Diplomacy, it is possible to insist on keeping trade open regardless of who they war with, as with the Saltern, we have enough trade power to make it so that refusing our traders even in war time is selfdestructive.
We don't actually know for sure- the azurite shows the copper on the surface isn't mixed with arsenic, but it's entirely possible the copper deeper beneath the earth has arsenic in it.

Tin is very much a long shot, though, we are probably going to have to trade for it unless we're insanely lucky.
Mmm, well, generally in one mine you tend to get the same mineral, at least with copper age technology. We are doing open pit mining at present, no ability to dig and maintain prospecting mineshafts. You need pumps to do those.

But as with much of the Bronze age, it's down to trade for metal. The advent of Bronze really made the trade powers of the era flourish, as due to the sheer demand for the metal, and the limited number of sites that produce both Tin and Copper, that elaborate trade networks were established to haul metal.

Which of course, the pre-bronze trade powers shamelessly leveraged into getting dominance. Hence how the various Greek citystates without major native metal production sometimes do better than the metal producers in prosperity. It doesn't matter what you make unless you have all the parts for it.
 
Well it's certainly a matter of pride. And an actual issue because good refractory ceramic => More metal.

If we look at or neighbors and all polities we know of:

We are a ways ahead of the Nomads in pottery. They are not sedentary enough to really get into it.

We are ahead of our Thunder Friends(Thunder Speakers), we have little indication that they are doing anything which requires things like glazing or super kilns.

We are slightly ahead of the HK. We don't know enough to say one way or the other.

We have at least parity with the MW, and with their recent mysterious advance we probably are slightly behind.

And then the Xoh are solidly ahead of us.

Another concern on the Almighty List of Shit We Need To Do.
Naw, we can solve it like we solved the last three times we wound up behind on ceramics: Trade until we copied all their design ideas, then take in their refugees to steal the trade secrets too.

Copper in general is good for potable water pipes. This is because it is biostatic and microbes and bacteria don't like to grow on it. This feature was incidentally used by the Egyptians in their piping and kept them from some of the more severe waterborne diseases.
However copper is too rare to use on a truly large scale at present that way.
There's a reason lead pipes were often used by Romans despite being known to be unfit for anything but wastewater piping. Lead was cheap, so it got used.
 
[X] [Kick] The Garden
[X] [Main] New Settlement - Southern Shores
[X] [Secondary] Copper Mine
[X] [Secondary] Salt Gift - Highland Kingdom

A Compromise vote
 
For this element, keep in mind that we are likely to finish the Garden megaproject immediately, with or without metal. While doubtlessly useful, I would like to highlight that the losses from getting it next turn versus getting it this turn are minor.
The Dam
I would also highlight that the last peaceful period in the lowlands was close to 10 turns ago and only lasted two turns.
HK: Doing the Law for at least 1-2 more turns.
TS: Fighting the ETH
DP: Fighting the TS & ETH.

People aren't going to fight in places we care about for a bit. Aka till the HK starts it up again.

[X] [Kick] The Garden
[X] [Main] New Settlement - Southern Shores
[X] [Secondary] Copper Mine
[X] [Secondary] Salt Gift - Highland Kingdom

A Compromise vote
Do the Mine as a Main or not at all. It costs -3 econ as a secondary, which makes our settlements have trouble doing The Garden.
 
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Let me work it out for you(Materials and geology yay! :V ):

Azurite is a Carbon Carbonate ore: this is the formula

Cu3​(CO3​)2​(OH)2 ​

Cu is the copper and the (CO3​)2​(OH)2 ​mess is the carbonate. It is a naturally very very deep blue ore, and when we found the blue quarry we called it the blue quarry because of it's intense blue color.

<- Azurite

Later we found that the stone in the blue quarry was actually green and we confirmed we had Azurite instead of Lapis lazuli or some thing similar. The confrimation comes from the fact that Azurite is slightly unstable in air and spontaneously decays into green Malacite.

Azurite usually forms from interactions with Copper Sulfates(of which there are about a dozen) and Sodium Carbonate. Not likely to include Tin.

I am less familiar with the ores of copper which contain large amounts of arsenic, but it is generally accepted that copper has a common contamination of less than 1% Arsenic. Far below the Arsenic Copper alloying threshold that makes Arsenic-Bronze.

Like folks above have said while I typed this out it is possible that our Mine has arsenic and copper in it but it is less likely. Our mine probably goes

Upper layer of Azurite and Malacite
\/
Copper Sulfates & other stuff.
Im pretty sure it's become my sworn duty to correct the massive amounts of misinformation that flows through this thread. You're right, but missing a few things.

Cu3​(CO3​)2​(OH)2​ (azurite) is one of two common copper carbonate minerals. The other being malachite. Cu2​CO3​(OH)2​. It is formed as a combination of Copper(II), Carbonate(CO3​, and Hydroxide(OH). Pure copper carbonate (CuCO3​) just doesn't really occur naturally.

In open air, especially moist conditions with a low partial pressure of carbon dioxide, azurite oxidizes to form malachite.
2Cu3​(CO3​)2​(OH)2​ + H2​O → 3Cu2​(CO3​)(OH)2​ + CO2​
 
Which...now is not as good a time as after we sort out the provinces?
We won't be needing the bonus to Dam construction for at least two turns, which would include establishing the mine.

HK: Doing the Law for at least 1-2 more turns.
TS: Fighting the ETH
DP: Fighting the TS & ETH.

People aren't going to fight in places we care about for a bit. Aka till the HK starts it up again.
HK - Yes. They won't start a war. Nothing keeps them from being warred upon, considering they currently hold the former DP tributaries, the DPs will want those back while the HK are distracted.

TS - This sort of war had been known to end over the course of one turn(heck, we've seen more dramatic reversals, remember releasing the Thunder Horse? Remember pulling out of the war? Remember the time of the Star Pox, the Spirit Talker megadroughts and all that? Reversals are common and likely). We've seen it happen when either the TS surges and pushes the ETH off the map, or some other chaos happens. Once that does, you can expect the TS to retarget. Their Martial Glory value requires it

DP - Their whole culture requires slaves from tributaries or raid targets. Unless the TS surrenders to the DP for some reason, they WILL start fighting again shortly unless they want to eat a Stability hit. Citation: See their mythology, with respect to their two warrior gods and their demands.
 
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-We do not actually know what Poppy looks like. We have a second hand description written down of a magic flower that eases pain, possibly of how it might be used, but without an actual sample, it's going to vanish into our anal retentive mountains of records of curiosities. The only certain way to preserve that knowledge based on Ymaryn's culture is to find a practical application for it. Furthermore, writing is imprecise with intangible elements like pain, and colors, which historically tended to shift meaning over time.
I disagree. Like, the only thing valuable about this drug is that it pleasantly stupefies and blocks pain. We don't need a physical description at all. We can just say 'I want the flower that pleasantly stupefies and kills pain', and anyone selling opium will know what I'm talking about.

The notion that we won't be able to buy an actively traded good because we don't know what the plant looks like seems quite wrong. After all, chances are that the healers had never seen a live plant either. It doesn't grow close to them currently.
 
We're going to have traffic congestion in Valleyhome soon enough. Are animals even allowed in Valleyhome, given the amount of manure that they generated?

Hopefully, it's alleviated by using rooftops as second level street. A precedent can be found in the neolithic city, Çatalhöyük, with a population of 10,000. This city doesn't actually have ground level street, as it is essentially one giant blob of buildings, like honeycombs in beehive. The rooftop, however, are definitely used as streets.

AN said the Garden project is definitely more than just an aqueduct, but a literal city garden as in the Hanging Garden of Bablyon. We might have rooftop gardens and rooftop street.
 
We're going to have traffic congestion in Valleyhome soon enough. Are animals even allowed in Valleyhome, given the amount of manure that they generated?

Hopefully, it's alleviated by using rooftops as second level street. A precedent can be found in the neolithic city, Çatalhöyük, with a population of 10,000. This city doesn't actually have ground level street, as it is essentially one giant blob of buildings, like honeycombs in beehive. The rooftop, however, are definitely used as streets.

AN said the Garden project is definitely more than just an aqueduct, but a literal city garden as in the Hanging Garden of Bablyon. We might have rooftop gardens and rooftop street.
From description, the garden is actually 'just' a city waterworks. Sewer and fresh water delivered throughout the city.

It's not a garden at all in the classic sense.
 
Which...now is not as good a time as after we sort out the provinces?
We won't be needing the bonus to Dam construction for at least two turns, which would include establishing the mine.


HK - Yes. They won't start a war. Nothing keeps them from being warred upon, considering they currently hold the former DP tributaries, the DPs will want those back while the HK are distracted.

TS - This sort of war had been known to end over the course of one turn(heck, we've seen more dramatic reversals, remember releasing the Thunder Horse? Remember pulling out of the war? Remember the time of the Star Pox, the Spirit Talker megadroughts and all that? Reversals are common and likely). We've seen it happen when either the TS surges and pushes the ETH off the map, or some other chaos happens. Once that does, you can expect the TS to retarget. Their Martial Glory value requires it

DP - Their whole culture requires slaves from tributaries or raid targets. Unless the TS surrenders to the DP for some reason, they WILL start fighting again shortly unless they want to eat a Stability hit. Citation: See their mythology, with respect to their two warrior gods and their demands.
Don't agree.
Now:
Main: Settlement - Southshore
Main: Copper Mine
Next:
Main: Settlement - Eastern Hills
Main: The Dam

Saves us a secondary Change Policy action, can potentially utilize overflow from The Garden finishing to start The Dam.

I find it unlikely that the battle between the TS and ETH will cease unless the ETH cease expanding toward the lowlands. This is unlikely. If they do, there's still the DP. Bringing up the starpox, ST drought, etc. is a foolish choice: who is going to fight when they're already dying? The TS can pull nomads from their back pockets and retreat, but that doesn't mean they're going to attack the HK. The ETH can pull levies from farther within their empire, but that doesn't mean the TS are free to attack the HK. The only way out is if the ETH stop, and I just don't see that as likely.

The DP have tributaries. They're also already raiding/warring w/, as previously stated, both the TS and ETH (and possibly the HK).

The only battle pairing that matters in terms of trade missions to the HK and TS are the HK and TS.
The HK are busy with internal development. The TS are busy fighting their cousins and the DP.
 
I disagree. Like, the only thing valuable about this drug is that it pleasantly stupefies and blocks pain. We don't need a physical description at all. We can just say 'I want the flower that pleasantly stupefies and kills pain', and anyone selling opium will know what I'm talking about.

The notion that we won't be able to buy an actively traded good because we don't know what the plant looks like seems quite wrong. After all, chances are that the healers had never seen a live plant either. It doesn't grow close to them currently.
Harder than it sounds. Most of the phrase is going to be difficult to translate into trade tongue.
Saves us a secondary Change Policy action, can potentially utilize overflow from The Garden finishing to start The Dam.

Doesn't save anything though. Garden finishing is more likely to go into Aqueducts for other cities. And Change Policy actions can be avoided by simply setting clear goals for each policy. We've not needed to stop to change it manually thus far.
 
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Harder than it sounds. Most of the phrase is going to be difficult to translate into trade tongue.
Pretty sure that requires zero language at all to communicate. You could mime communicate 'hurt less' and 'fall asleep' along with 'eat' and handle it just fine.
 
Don't agree.
Now:
Main: Settlement - Southshore
Main: Copper Mine
Next:
Main: Settlement - Eastern Hills
Main: The Dam

Saves us a secondary Change Policy action, can potentially utilize overflow from The Garden finishing to start The Dam.

I find it unlikely that the battle between the TS and ETH will cease unless the ETH cease expanding toward the lowlands. This is unlikely. If they do, there's still the DP. Bringing up the starpox, ST drought, etc. is a foolish choice: who is going to fight when they're already dying? The TS can pull nomads from their back pockets and retreat, but that doesn't mean they're going to attack the HK. The ETH can pull levies from farther within their empire, but that doesn't mean the TS are free to attack the HK. The only way out is if the ETH stop, and I just don't see that as likely.

The DP have tributaries. They're also already raiding/warring w/, as previously stated, both the TS and ETH (and possibly the HK).

The only battle pairing that matters in terms of trade missions to the HK and TS are the HK and TS.
The HK are busy with internal development. The TS are busy fighting their cousins and the DP.

I'd rather finish with the wonders for the time being and switch to Trade Policy -> Defensive Policy.
 
Correction on a few factors:
-We do not actually know what Poppy looks like. We have a second hand description written down of a magic flower that eases pain, possibly of how it might be used, but without an actual sample, it's going to vanish into our anal retentive mountains of records of curiosities. The only certain way to preserve that knowledge based on Ymaryn's culture is to find a practical application for it. Furthermore, writing is imprecise with intangible elements like pain, and colors, which historically tended to shift meaning over time.

-Secondly, the Highlander god of poison is not well loved. I suspect they might not consider it a good thing per se to offer. Not a certainty, but more chancy than I'd like, because Opium is the last piece of the chalcolithic medicinal tech tree. If we get it, we have literally the best possible medicine.
--If additional persuasion is needed, recall how opium was presented in the Odyssey. An island of poppy eating people, who are alive, but do no work but laze around eating magic flowers. You really don't want to lose the info of what it's good for. It just sounds like poison otherwise.


For this element, keep in mind that we are likely to finish the Garden megaproject immediately, with or without metal. While doubtlessly useful, I would like to highlight that the losses from getting it next turn versus getting it this turn are minor.

I would also highlight that the last peaceful period in the lowlands was close to 10 turns ago and only lasted two turns.
Lowland trade windows are small, and should be taken advantage of where possible.

Additionally, with our high Diplomacy, it is possible to insist on keeping trade open regardless of who they war with, as with the Saltern, we have enough trade power to make it so that refusing our traders even in war time is selfdestructive.

Mmm, well, generally in one mine you tend to get the same mineral, at least with copper age technology. We are doing open pit mining at present, no ability to dig and maintain prospecting mineshafts. You need pumps to do those.

But as with much of the Bronze age, it's down to trade for metal. The advent of Bronze really made the trade powers of the era flourish, as due to the sheer demand for the metal, and the limited number of sites that produce both Tin and Copper, that elaborate trade networks were established to haul metal.

Which of course, the pre-bronze trade powers shamelessly leveraged into getting dominance. Hence how the various Greek citystates without major native metal production sometimes do better than the metal producers in prosperity. It doesn't matter what you make unless you have all the parts for it.
Excellent points lets break it down:

It sounds funny to call us anal retentive with record keeping but I can totally see it. Valid concern. The fact that we have a written record however ameliorates some of the problem for me.
The second piece is basically a non-issue because we can skip the HK and ask their supplier the SHP directly. Additionally since our access to poppy is unconnected to the HK and we don't have to worry about them exploding again or stabilizing or their disliked god the Lowlands are mostly irrelevant to us getting Poppy. Yay niceu bonusu!

Extra quote evidence if needed.
[] Trade Mission
-Target Options: Highland Kingdom, Western Thunder Horse/Thunder Speakers, Metal Miners, Lowland Minors, Southern Hill People, Dead Priests/Xohyssiri,

Trade target for them.

As to finishing the garden with or without metal, I halfway agree. It takes 3-6 actions and we have 2 minimum done as of now. Symphony is not gonna trigger, so that at minimum single action bonus is not a thing. With the kick and the province actions next turn we will have 5 actions towards it, almost certainly finishing it (like 90% sure it will be). But I feel okay with piling on that last copper bonus and getting it 100% certain. Plus if it finishes with 5 then the copper tools help with the overflow which is good. As an aside I just thought of; if we have copper tools becoming wide spread by opening a mine, before we start sending trade missions, it suddenly becomes a super good product we can sell along with salt.

As to the Lowlands War and Peace cycle your point is valid. But if we want to just get poppy, why bother the Lowlands at all? Since you also want to poke in and get influence over the HK and their developing Law however, I see where your urgency is coming from. Personally I don't really have an invested interest in that bit and just want poppy for, as you said, rounding out our med tech and making us the Authority on healing in the region.




Im pretty sure it's become my sworn duty to correct the massive amounts of misinformation that flows through this thread. You're right, but missing a few things.

Cu3​(CO3​)2​(OH)2​ (azurite) is one of two common copper carbonate minerals. The other being malachite. Cu2​CO3​(OH)2​. It is formed as a combination of Copper(II), Carbonate(CO3​, and Hydroxide(OH). Pure copper carbonate (CuCO3​) just doesn't really occur naturally.

In open air, especially moist conditions with a low partial pressure of carbon dioxide, azurite oxidizes to form malachite.
2Cu3​(CO3​)2​(OH)2​ + H2​O → 3Cu2​(CO3​)(OH)2​ + CO2​
Ooh look nitpicks. Thanks for specifying it was a carbonate + hydroxide. But I think calling it misinformation is a little malicious dont'cha think? I certainly had no intent of deceiving them.
As to the specifics of the oxidation reaction, not necessary to the description in my opinion.
 
Doesn't save anything though. Garden finishing is more likely to go into Aqueducts for other cities. And Change Policy actions can be avoided by simply setting clear goals for each policy. We've not needed to stop to change it manually thus far.
Yeah, we haven't needed to change it manually thus far... the 1 change that occurred.

The Garden finishing is likely to automatically start an extended project w/ no input from us? Interesting opinion.

@ctulhuslp I'm glad you support a Trade policy, for all that I do not understand your desire to wall all of our towns and thus theoretically slow their growth rather than doing an Expansion -> Trade -> Policy path that would be more likely to interconnect and protect our outermost provinces and then result in better Art, Science, and Observance.

Personally, I just want to do The Dam because it will a) take a single turn, b) finally have the very first megaproject we received be finished, c) likely enhance our masonry, and d) strengthen our cultural core further. It's the last megaproject/"wonder" that I care to finish in the near future.
 
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Yeah, we haven't needed to change it manually thus far... the 1 change that occurred.

The Garden finishing is likely to automatically start an extended project w/ no input from us? Interesting opinion.
He means the Garden is likely to finish with 4-5 actions and we get an "overflow" that pops out aqueducts.
 
He means the Garden is likely to finish with 4-5 actions and we get an "overflow" that pops out aqueducts.
I know.

However, the overflow that occurred w/ the Saltern gave us a choice of "do we want to Study Stars, Carrion Eaters, or start The Garden?" It is likely that the same process will occur with an overflow from The Garden.
 
Cause we don't have a word for "plumbing". :V

Be really funny if the word that is <Garden> ends up meaning "Sewer".

Because then we can call our sewers <Gardens of Shit>.
Hmmm... Maybe the drainage ditches will lead to the black soil pits, and then drain off, leaving the pit to dry and be burned?
 
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Adhoc vote count started by Umi-san on May 9, 2017 at 1:56 PM, finished with 30380 posts and 74 votes.
 
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