Paths of Civilization

[BungieONI]

The metal workers are to the northwest across the sea*. The southern hill people are to the south of that same body of water, and were the ones raiding us...i dont remember if they have metal? There are also some people to the south that i dont think we've met yet, that have metal, that the Highland Kingdom trade with...though its possible that people are referring to them as the southern hill people, and/or thinking that these last two groups are the same?

*Giant lake? Body of water of some unknown type that is very big to us at this scale

Click to shrink...

My current running theory is that it's the Black Sea:

I mean look at this map:



We are probably where Georgia is and the MW are in Crimea. The mountains the HK are living in would be the Pontics down at the bottom there and the southern kingdoms that raided us might be Proto-Not!Turks. The South Metal Workers might be a different variety of Not!Turk.

Edit: Ooh! I got rated Insightful by AN. Which must mean that I am totally wrong of course.

 

[Sivantic]

Okay there is definitely confusion on who they are and where they are. I won't bother then.

Im sorry if it is not clear what I've been saying. If it is great!

Click to shrink...

It isn't clear.

What is clear is that you people are trying to make long term plans again and to that I say

 

[Abby Normal]

My current running theory is that it's the Black Sea:

I mean look at this map:



We are probably where Georgia is and the MW are in Crimea. The mountains the HK are living in would be the Pontics down at the bottom there and the southern kingdoms that raided us might be Proto-Not!Turks. The South Metal Workers might be a different variety of Not!Turk.

Click to shrink...

The HK are to our southeast, not south-west, and i think the mountains to our north are way too small scale to be the caucasus

 

[VoidZero]

I wonder if we can Main Garden, Sec Mine, and Sec trade mission @ Metal Workers?

The reason being mega project being mandatory main, and metal workers have made some kind of discover that we heard about.
With Mine as a economy booster for next turn, give synergy to mega project, and low chance for trade mission. Since we would likely import less copper from the Metal Workers, as we start producing our own.

 

[Sivantic]

I wonder if we can Main Garden, Sec Mine, and Sec trade mission @ Metal Workers?

The reason being mega project being mandatory main, and metal workers have made some kind of discover that we heard about.
With Mine as a economy booster for next turn, give synergy to mega project, and low chance for trade mission. Since we would likely import less copper from the Metal Workers, as we start producing our own.

Click to shrink...

It doesn't appear to be required actually going by the others assumptions that we can just leave it to our provinces.

I'd be pretty jazzed if we could just main and kick it to get it done with next turn though.

 

[BungieONI]

Okay there is definitely confusion on who they are and where they are. I won't bother then.

It isn't clear.

What is clear is that you people are trying to make long term plans again and to that I say

Click to shrink...

I'm going to just disagree, much like Peter did, that it is flat out impossible to plan for the long term. I've planned out four generations. We the playerbase have actually got pretty good at seeing the cycles that are around us.

Please have these posts, and this, and this. Im sorry if they do not clarify that I have very specific reasons for doing things the way I have and that I have tried to explain them. *Hugz?*

The HK are to our southeast, not south-west, and i think the mountains to our north are way too small scale to be the caucasus

Click to shrink...

Nahp HK are south-south west with a push out to the south east. At least that's what I remember.

I wonder if we can Main Garden, Sec Mine, and Sec trade mission @ Metal Workers?

The reason being mega project being mandatory main, and metal workers have made some kind of discover that we heard about.
With Mine as a economy booster for next turn, give synergy to mega project, and low chance for trade mission. Since we would likely import less copper from the Metal Workers, as we start producing our own.

Click to shrink...

Feasible. Would lead to interesting things. And we actually don't have to mandatory Main Megaprojects anymore, unless that is something you won't budge on and that's what makes it mandatory? Which I'm cool with.

 

[Sivantic]

I'm going to just disagree, much like Peter did, that it is flat out impossible to plan for the long term. I've planned out four generations. We the playerbase have actually got pretty good at seeingthe cycles that are around us.

Click to shrink...

Dice, quite simply, don't care.

We've been sidetracked dozens of times.

We can have goals, sure(We even meet them sometimes), but to try and have a set schedule is going to lead only to tears.

 

[Ghostdevil]

Considering we have not even gotten 2 turn plans down, I doubt we can do 4 turns. We get one turn then a new problem needs handling

 

[VoidZero]

Feasible. Would lead to interesting things. And we actually don't have to mandatory Main Megaprojects anymore, unless that is something you won't budge on and that's what makes it mandatory? Which I'm cool with.

Click to shrink...

Eh? Did i missed the memo again? If mega project is province action then I'm getting main mine, trade mission, and boat.

 

[notgreat]

I wonder if we can Main Garden, Sec Mine, and Sec trade mission @ Metal Workers?

Click to shrink...

The problem with that is the province actions: we'll get no province actions to help since we'll be at 1 econ (0 if kicked 0) due to the secondary copper mine's initial cost.
We could pair this with a policy switch immediately instead. Main kicked Garden, Sec mine, Sec policy:expansion. We'd have to likely do the megaproject next turn as well (we'd only hit the minimum 3 turn investment) but it'd get everything else done: two provinces and metal.

 

[BungieONI]

Dice, quite simply, don't care.

We've been sidetracked dozens of times.

We can have goals, sure(We even meet them sometimes), but to try and have a set schedule is going to lead only to tears.

Click to shrink...

I know very well they don't care.
I said "fuck you" and planned around them.

I also know Murphy is a special kind of dick in this quest. I built meat grinders he could happily insert himself into in there to save it from His meddling.

But, what events could side track us? Let's take a look:
The plan's biggest advantage is that it can finish without Baby Boom. It is totally self-contained in it's econ costs and at the end of it we end up spending a net 2 Econ.

A refugee wave from the lowlands. Plan has mid turn flexibility inside it to absorb the Stab hits and really only benefits from this. Plus CA can nullify this stuff.

A disease. Tricky but that will cause more refugees which we could take in and open more time to send a TM to the TH and HK.

A fucking comet. We have the stability to burn and a fuckload of Mysticism. This would suck, but we can take it, especially early in the plan.

A disease and a comet. This would cause some severe upset, and we would have to only take the smaller refugee waves. Again CA applies.

A Nomad Waaagh! This would require us to sac something from steps 5 or 7 or maybe jigger other things around so we can send a Main War Mission to support the March.

We have a lot of pots with very volatile things in this kitchen but we finally got the Sou chef and assistants so we can sorta handle it for now.

Considering we have not even gotten 2 turn plans down, I doubt we can do 4 turns. We get one turn then a new problem needs handling

Click to shrink...

I kinda giggle at these thoughts. They are valid but they still amuse me, because watching Murphy work can be hilarious. The factors we have been butting up against are thus:

Re-integrate March
Get Metal tools
Expand to Southshore
Expand to East Hills
Finish the Garden
Start & finish the Damn Dam
Send a trade mission to all of HK,TH,SHP
Weather the shit Murphy flings
Expand Martial

These are literally all of the pet projects and other things we want. I covered the crisis above.

When voting time comes I'll vote for my plan and use what I have written as support.

The problem with that is the province actions: we'll get no province actions to help since we'll be at 1 econ (0 if kicked 0) due to the secondary copper mine's initial cost.
We could pair this with a policy switch immediately instead. Main kicked Garden, Sec mine, Sec policy:expansion. We'd have to likely do the megaproject next turn as well (we'd only hit the minimum 3 turn investment) but it'd get everything else done: two provinces and metal.

Click to shrink...

What do you think of my plan?

My math checks out even without Baby Boom. And we likely have one turn of that left, which I would consider enough buffer to really get it going.

 

[Academia Nut]

[X] Begin work on the Garden (-1 Econ, +1 Stability, starts megaproject)
[X] Xohyssiri

The People were somewhat surprised by the swiftness of their own construction, so with the need for fresh water also something on their mind, the king approved a project that some had talked about around campfires for some time, which was to make a canal that flowed into a city to provide fresh water directly, instead of requiring to walk a significant way to the river or a well. It would also better help flush the drainage ditches and a few other considerations. Upper Valleyhome had long been considered a good place to start, as while it was at the top of a local high point it was still well below well watered hills with a pre-existing reservoir and irrigation network. There would be a fair amount of earth moving required, but it was a relatively simple task all things considered to get a small canal down from those hills and into the city. What would be more complicated would be rearranging things to ensure that there would be proper waterflow throughout the settlement, which would require... basically every structure to be demolished and relocated, but since everything was already laid out on a grid and old buildings were often torn down and replaced anyway, the task was really more about accelerating the replacement schedule and moving things about during that time. Streets would be widened, more boulevards put in place, and channels to carry fresh and waste water would be laid underneath brick lined streets. It would take time, but the project had multiple provinces for backing. While some of it was just for the prestige of it all, a big part was that the chiefs recognized that Valleyhome was a good test case to see if they could extend the concept to other large settlements.

Meanwhile, the king summoned forth the healers from the Xohyssiri and said to them, "We thank you for your teaching us of your skills, and of speaking of your people. While we are still wary of your ways, let it not be said that we will turn anyone away simply for being strange. As such we shall be outfitting a major trade caravan to speak with your people, and if you wish to accompany them to return to your people that is acceptable to both me and the People."

Of the surviving healers, time having culled their numbers, there was some consideration as technically they had been given as part of the gift and it wasn't precisely proper to return a gift, but some of them making the return trip could be seen of as continuing to aid the People by aiding them, and they could consult with the people in charge back home once they got there. So some joined up with the caravan, while those who wished to stay remained behind.

It took many seasons for the caravan dispatched to work its way back to the People, but the traders brought with them fantastical stories of the Xohyssiri. Mostly that while they weren't nearly as bad as rumours and legends suggested, they were still a thoroughly unpleasant lot, who yes, did have a wall studded with skulls around the centre of the city, which was at least as big as Valleyhome, if not larger. There were, however, two additional layers of wall around the city: one around a vast sprawl of lower class and slave housing, and another, much lower wall that spread out to encapsulate the farmland around the city. This second one was primarily to make any chariot raids a much bigger pain than to really keep out dedicated attackers, but since chariot raids were the main threat it worked quite well at its job. While morbidly decorated at the gates, these newer walls were significantly less gruesome than the ancient structure that was still maintained with fresh blood and skulls, but thankfully no longer really expanded.

The spirits they paid tribute to in sacrifices both mundane and human were also about as bad as trade stories described, with more than a few traders considering that the Xohyssiri should get better gods once they were well away from the place, although there were a few that the People felt had some redeeming values, although most of those weren't the major ones that had big temple complexes... although perhaps the fact that they didn't have major temples that offered up at least one human sacrifice once a year had something to do with why the People didn't mind them so much. The one the People had the least issue with was definitely Tuultox, a spirit with the lower body of a snake and the upper body of a woman whose venom could serve as both disease and cure, something the more spiritually apt knew was true of most medicines, with the dosage and application making the difference. While they didn't exactly approve of some of the bloodier aspects, Tuultox also didn't demand active human sacrifice so for one of the major ones that put her leagues ahead of the rest.

More practically, the People had to acknowledge that for all its gruesome character and unpleasant smell, the city of the Xohyssiri was prosperous and a major hub for trade, with numerous rare and exotic goods brought to an enormous square where they were exchanged and swapped. While not unique, the large loads of dye and precious metal had certainly made for a vigorous trade, netting rare cloths, beautiful artwork, and a few daggers of 'Eastern copper', a strange variation on copper that was used by a few of the Eastern Thunder Horse that held an edge much better than regular copper, and was a bit more golden in colour than copper. While still not terribly useful for making weapons, the knives made from the material were good enough to make a useful replacement for stone or wood variants, and the Xohyssiri occasionally picked them up off the battlefield. And then of course there was the big product: ceramics. The Xohyssiri had ceramics that exceeded anything the People made in terms of shape, patterning, and quality of glaze.

Overall, while the People weren't entirely certain about any sort of continued relationship with the Xohyssiri, continued trade with them could probably be beneficial, and perhaps by talking to them they might introduce them to some non-psychotic spirits to worship, although there was some unease over the possibility of someone offering a heart up to Crow in the future. Also, fighting would probably block the route again in the future, but for the moment there would probably be good things coming up from the south for a time, and the People might learn a thing or two from the Dead Priests.

Spoiler: Important Projects

Art Patronage - Wealth of the first and second kind can be used to create wealth of the third kind to the benefit of all
* S: -1 Econ, +2 Art
* M: -2 Econ, +3 Art, +1 Prestige, potential innovations

Black Soil - Production is now regular and huge amounts of trash are turned to black soil every year, but there's always room for more production [Shapers] [King]
* S: -1 Econ, +1 Econ next turn, additional effects
* M: +1 Econ, additional effects
* used 2 times

Build Chariots - Once the domain of rich nomad chieftains, there is now enough copper to make construction of this new design practical for the People and deployable on a large scale. Used: 1 times
* S: -1 Econ, +1 Martial
*M: -2 Econ, +3 Martial, other effects

Build Wall - Long experience with retaining walls has lead to the idea of a settlement wall for protection (Redshore, Northshore, and Stonepen capitals walled; Northshore and Stonepen partially walled elsewhere)
* S: -1 Econ, minor walls
* M: -1 Econ, major walls

Build Watchtowers - Stone and brick towers for warriors to sit in and scan the horizon for trouble, these towers can help stave off raids and improve response against attacks. (Northshore has some watchtowers)
*S: -1 Econ, some watchtowers
*M: -1 Econ, many watchtowers

Change Policy - Adjust the current Policy to one better fitting the situation
*S: Change Policy to one of the available ones listed below
Balanced - Takes whatever actions seem reasonable. Expand Economy is considered a Policy action for interaction with other effects
Defence - Builds walls and watchtowers
Expansion - Builds new settlements, expands economy, expands forests, and can even create new provinces
Infrastructure - Extended projects
Megaproject Support - Provinces can spend actions in support of a megaproject
Offence - Can recruit warriors and specialists, can send war actions against declared enemies
Progress - Takes studying actions and art patronage
Restoration - Takes stability improving actions
Spirits - Expands Holy Sites
Trade - Sends out trade missions, produce art and luxuries

Copper Mine - A source of copper is known within the People's territory, and it can be expanded to produce not just small amounts of the ore for art purposes, but into a full fledged mine. The effects are unpleasant but the People think they can contain the worst of it.
*S: -3 Econ, +5 Econ next turn, other effects
*M: +3 Econ, other effects

Enforce Law - The king is a servant of the law, and he can use the army to remind people of that fact
* S: 0 to 1 Stability, +1-3 Centralization
* M: 0 to 1 Stability, greater odds of stability gain, +2-3 Centralization
* the more settlements with walls outside of the capital, particularly large walls, the less effective this action is

Expand Economy - Encourage the growth of food producing activities such as farming, pastures, or fishing, depending on where focus is placed
* +1 Econ, potential additional effects
* 6 uses remain before requiring new territory

Expand Forests - The People have knowledge of how to regrow and repair forests, which extends to bringing them to places they have never been, with considerable effort
* S: -1 Econ, grows forest, +1 Econ next turn if in settled territory and controlled
* M: -1 Econ, grows forest, +2 Econ next turn if in settled and controlled territory

Expand Holy Sites - The current places dedicated to the spirits and wisdom have accumulated interesting objects and tellers of stories, but they could be made a bit better
* S: -1 Econ, +1 Mysticism
* M: -2 Econ, +2 Mysticism, +1 Art, potential additional effects

Expand Snail Cultivation - While now more reliably grown and harvested, the snail domestication has only managed to hold environmental changes at bay rather than increase production. More investment would increase cultivation
* S: -1 Econ, +1 Diplo
* M: -2 Econ, +2 Diplo, potential additional effects

Expand Warriors - More men can be inducted into the ranks of the warriors every year and not face major food shortfalls
* S: -1 Econ, +1 Martial
* M: -2 Econ, +2 Martial, potential additional effects

Grand Sacrifice - Communal sacrifice is a great way to bring the People together, and to also even out class distinctions. NOTE: Because the People do not use human sacrifice, the Econ costs are especially harsh. Max Stability: Legitimacy
*S: -2 Econ, +1 Stability
*M: -3 Econ, +2 Stability

Improve Annual Festival - A festival for every season, but their expansion can help put the People at ease and teach good practices.
* M: -2 Econ, +1 Stability, +1 Art chance for additional effects
* 2M: -3 Econ, +1 Stability, +3 Art, chance for additional effects
* Max Stability: Legitimacy - 1

More Blackbirds - Elite scouts and woodsmen, the Blackbirds are a potent force, if not exactly mainline fighters. More of them could prove useful
* S: -1 Mysticism, +1 Martial more Blackbirds
* M: -1 Econ, -1 Mysticism, +1 Martial, many more Blackbirds, additional effects

More Carrion Eaters - Keepers of sacred and profane knowledge, the Carrion Eaters thread a dangerous path but bring valuable knowledge for treating wounds and inspiring courage, greatly bolstering the morale of warriors by ensuring them that their companions are not doomed if they fall. More could prove useful.
*S: -1 Mysticism, +1 Martial, more Carrion Eaters
*M: -1 Econ, -1 Mysticism, +1 Martial, many more Carrion Eaters, additional effects

More Boats - The things are expensive but oh so useful, so having more of them will increase your capacity for trade, travel, and fishing
* S: -2 Econ, +1 Econ and +1 Diplo next turn, other potential effects
* M: -2 Econ, +1 Econ end of turn, +1 Econ and Diplo next turn, additional effects, tiny chance of innovation;
* used 3 times

New Settlement - There are a few new sites that could have new settlements placed on them: within Northshore (inland to the north into the plains), badlands, eastern hills, northern pastures within Stonepen, southern shores, west of the Black River (west of Northshore province)
* S: +1 Econ next turn, increases number of times Expand Econ can be taken
* M: +1 Econ and +1 Mysticism end of turn, increases the number of times Expand Econ can be taken
Special: Badlands settlement requires a Main action to work at all and only returns as a Secondary, but increases response time and decreases logistics for movement in and out of the badlands
Special: Main action for Eastern Hills, Southern Shores, Black River produces a new province

New Trails - The new coastal settlement is supported mostly by boats and the expansion of the limited trails there would be of great utility
* S: -1 Econ, +1 Centralization, other effects
* M: -1 Econ, +1 Centralization, +1 Diplo, other effects

Proclaim Glory - A recent innovation from the south, by using art the King can promote people to trust his decisions; modified by Diplomacy skill
* S: -2 Art, +1 Legitimacy
* M: -3 Art, -1 Econ, +1 Legitimacy, +1 Stability, potential +1 Prestige
* Max Stability: Legitimacy

Restoration of Order - The people are uncertain, and into that uncertainty bad behaviour can flow. Send in the warriors to reassure people and root out corruption and dissent, restoring the proper function of the People. Max Stability: 0 or Legitimacy, whichever is lower
* S: Gain -1 to 2 Stability
* M: Roll twice, take best result
* modified by Administrative skill

Sailing Mission - The new boats have proven themselves capable of exploring long distances, so what else might they discover along the shores of the sea?
* S: Potential new discoveries
* M: -1 Econ, improved odds of success

Salt Gift - With the saltern, the People have access to tremendous amounts of salt, which can be used to awe outsiders
*S: -5 Diplomacy, random amount of Diplomacy, Art, and Prestige generated
*M: -5 Diplomacy, random amount of Diplomacy, Art, and Prestige generated (min. 1 of each) and the possibility of Mysticism generation

Study Forests - The holy site within the sacred forest is the repository of lore on the forests and the things within them, but could the shamans learn more? 1 Use
* S: Potential new discoveries
* M: -1 Econ, improved odds of success

Study Health - What secrets of nature can be used to improve the health of the People?
* S: Potential new discoveries
* M: -1 Econ, improved odds of success

Study Metal - You have worked out the important features of metals like copper, silver, and gold, but are there other metals one can find?
* S: -1 Mysticism, tiny chance of new insights
* M: -1 Econ, -2 Mysticism, greater chance of new insights

Study Stars - What secrets do the heavens hold when you study the stars and their motions carefully? 7 Uses, 0/4 Uses in a Row
*S: +1 Mysticism, tiny chance of new insights
Cannot be used as a Main action

Survey Lands - Foreigners have discovered strange materials within their lands, are these materials perhaps also found within the lands of the People?
* S: Potential new discoveries
* M: -1 Econ, improved odds of success; used 1 time

Trade Mission - Sending a major caravan to another large group can bring new opportunities and find out more about the outside world
* S: -1 Diplo, additional effects depending on target, +1-2 Diplo end of of turn;
* M: -1 Diplo, -1 Econ, additional effects depending on target, +1-2 Diplo end of turn, +1-2 Diplo next turn

War Mission - You can send raiding parties against groups that have declared themselves hostile. Can only declare war if you have a valid casus belli (currently only if someone declares war first)
* S: Potential loss of Martial, can prevent Econ and Diplo damage when being attacked, can damage enemy Martial and Diplo
* M: Probable loss of Martial, can prevent Econ and Diplo damage when being attacked, can damage enemy Martial, Diplo, and Econ, always has a mid-turn decision point

Extended Projects- Extended Projects are major infrastructure projects that take more than a single Main action to complete but aren't as all consuming as megaprojects
Saltern - Need to find a new location through Survey actions or have more advanced technology to

Reminder: 2 {S} applied to the same project = 1 {M}
Additionally: 2 Mains may have non-linear effects

Mega-Projects - Mega-Projects can require many generations to complete, take an unknown amount of time to do so, and drain Econ while active, but can produce massive benefits once complete. Once chosen, the occupy the Main Focus slot until either completed or stopped early. Early stopping once started does not refund any of the investments and increases social strife. To reduce confusion, mega-projects are not listed as part of the voting project list and must be "written-in".
The Garden - The canal has greatly expanded the People's knowledge of controlling and directing water. A smaller but more personal project has been proposed to improve Valleyhome [Stewards] [King] (1/3-6? action commitment, -1 Econ per action)
Great Dam - The river can run wild and dangerous when the rains come strong, but could it not be controlled by the same principles by which the water on the hills is channelled and contained, merely on a larger scale? [Stewards][King] (4-7? action commitment, -1 Econ per action)
Place to the Stars - The shamans have noticed deeper patterns among the stars than they ever imagined, and setting up long term memories of where things should be could be intensely useful, if also labour intensive to get sufficiently durable markers in place [King] (7-10? action commitment, -1 Econ per action, some Mysticism commitment)

[Stewards] special kicker: Pay 1 Stability to double the effort on a megaproject action, consuming twice the required per turn resources but advancing the job faster. If taking a second main action on a megaproject, requires additional Stability payment to double that as well.

One [Main] action and two [Seconday] actions available. Currently working on the Garden Megaproject, which is being supported by the provinces. Will finish in 1-2 turns with current level of support

[] Art Patronage
[] Black Soil
[] Build Chariots
[] Build Wall
[] Build Watchtowers
[] Change Policy
[] Copper Mine
[] Enforce Law
[] Expand Economy
[] Expand Forests
[] Expand Holy Sites
[] Expand Snail Cultivation
[] Expand Warriors
[] Grand Sacrifice
[] Improve Annual Festival
[] More Blackbirds
[] More Carrion Eaters
[] More Boats
[] New Settlement
[] New Trails
[] Proclaim Glory
[] Restore Order
[] Sailing Mission
[] Salt Gift
[] Study Forests
[] Study Health
[] Study Metal
[] Study Stars
[] Survey Lands
[] Trade Mission
-Target Options: Highland Kingdom, Western Thunder Horse/Thunder Speakers, Metal Miners, Lowland Minors, Southern Hill People, Dead Priests/Xohyssiri, Into the Wild
[] War Mission
-Target Options: Northern Nomads

Provinces for Projects: Valleyhome, Redshore, Stonepen, Sacred Forest, Northshore
Major Holy Sites: Rainbow Trail, Sacred Forest, Holy Sea, Horse Valley, White Circle, Warrior's Rest

 

[Hangwind]

Thunder Horse Trade mission NOW. They've found the beginnings of Bronze.

 

[Academia Nut]

Thunder Horse Trade mission NOW. They've found the beginnings of Bronze.

Click to shrink...

A pity that's not an option.

 

[TotallyNotEvil]

Holy shit, bronze!

And did we finish Garden in one turn?

 

[RulerOfNothing]

So given that the Xohyssiri have far more advanced ceramics than us, is anyone up for Main Art Patronage?

 

[BungieONI]

[X] Begin work on the Garden (-1 Econ, +1 Stability, starts megaproject)
[X] Xohyssiri

The People were somewhat surprised by the swiftness of their own construction, so with the need for fresh water also something on their mind, the king approved a project that some had talked about around campfires for some time, which was to make a canal that flowed into a city to provide fresh water directly, instead of requiring to walk a significant way to the river or a well. It would also better help flush the drainage ditches and a few other considerations. Upper Valleyhome had long been considered a good place to start, as while it was at the top of a local high point it was still well below well watered hills with a pre-existing reservoir and irrigation network. There would be a fair amount of earth moving required, but it was a relatively simple task all things considered to get a small canal down from those hills and into the city. What would be more complicated would be rearranging things to ensure that there would be proper waterflow throughout the settlement, which would require... basically every structure to be demolished and relocated, but since everything was already laid out on a grid and old buildings were often torn down and replaced anyway, the task was really more about accelerating the replacement schedule and moving things about during that time. Streets would be widened, more boulevards put in place, and channels to carry fresh and waste water would be laid underneath brick lined streets. It would take time, but the project had multiple provinces for backing. While some of it was just for the prestige of it all, a big part was that the chiefs recognized that Valleyhome was a good test case to see if they could extend the concept to other large settlements.

Meanwhile, the king summoned forth the healers from the Xohyssiri and said to them, "We thank you for your teaching us of your skills, and of speaking of your people. While we are still wary of your ways, let it not be said that we will turn anyone away simply for being strange. As such we shall be outfitting a major trade caravan to speak with your people, and if you wish to accompany them to return to your people that is acceptable to both me and the People."

Of the surviving healers, time having culled their numbers, there was some consideration as technically they had been given as part of the gift and it wasn't precisely proper to return a gift, but some of them making the return trip could be seen of as continuing to aid the People by aiding them, and they could consult with the people in charge back home once they got there. So some joined up with the caravan, while those who wished to stay remained behind.

It took many seasons for the caravan dispatched to work its way back to the People, but the traders brought with them fantastical stories of the Xohyssiri. Mostly that while they weren't nearly as bad as rumours and legends suggested, they were still a thoroughly unpleasant lot, who yes, did have a wall studded with skulls around the centre of the city, which was at least as big as Valleyhome, if not larger. There were, however, two additional layers of wall around the city: one around a vast sprawl of lower class and slave housing, and another, much lower wall that spread out to encapsulate the farmland around the city. This second one was primarily to make any chariot raids a much bigger pain than to really keep out dedicated attackers, but since chariot raids were the main threat it worked quite well at its job. While morbidly decorated at the gates, these newer walls were significantly less gruesome than the ancient structure that was still maintained with fresh blood and skulls, but thankfully no longer really expanded.

The spirits they paid tribute to in sacrifices both mundane and human were also about as bad as trade stories described, with more than a few traders considering that the Xohyssiri should get better gods once they were well away from the place, although there were a few that the People felt had some redeeming values, although most of those weren't the major ones that had big temple complexes... although perhaps the fact that they didn't have major temples that offered up at least one human sacrifice once a year had something to do with why the People didn't mind them so much. The one the People had the least issue with was definitely Tuultox, a spirit with the lower body of a snake and the upper body of a woman whose venom could serve as both disease and cure, something the more spiritually apt knew was true of most medicines, with the dosage and application making the difference. While they didn't exactly approve of some of the bloodier aspects, Tuultox also didn't demand active human sacrifice so for one of the major ones that put her leagues ahead of the rest.

More practically, the People had to acknowledge that for all its gruesome character and unpleasant smell, the city of the Xohyssiri was prosperous and a major hub for trade, with numerous rare and exotic goods brought to an enormous square where they were exchanged and swapped. While not unique, the large loads of dye and precious metal had certainly made for a vigorous trade, netting rare cloths, beautiful artwork, and a few daggers of 'Eastern copper', a strange variation on copper that was used by a few of the Eastern Thunder Horse that held an edge much better than regular copper, and was a bit more golden in colour than copper. While still not terribly useful for making weapons, the knives made from the material were good enough to make a useful replacement for stone or wood variants. And then of course there was the big product: ceramics. The Xohyssiri had ceramics that exceeded anything the People made in terms of shape, patterning, and quality of glaze.

Overall, while the People weren't entirely certain about any sort of continued relationship with the Xohyssiri, continued trade with them could probably be beneficial, and perhaps by talking to them they might introduce them to some non-psychotic spirits to worship, although there was some unease over the possibility of someone offering a heart up to Crow in the future. Also, fighting would probably block the route again in the future, but for the moment there would probably be good things coming up from the south for a time, and the People might learn a thing or two from the Dead Priests.

Spoiler: Important Projects

Art Patronage - Wealth of the first and second kind can be used to create wealth of the third kind to the benefit of all
* S: -1 Econ, +2 Art
* M: -2 Econ, +3 Art, +1 Prestige, potential innovations

Black Soil - Production is now regular and huge amounts of trash are turned to black soil every year, but there's always room for more production [Shapers] [King]
* S: -1 Econ, +1 Econ next turn, additional effects
* M: +1 Econ, additional effects
* used 2 times

Build Chariots - Once the domain of rich nomad chieftains, there is now enough copper to make construction of this new design practical for the People and deployable on a large scale. Used: 1 times
* S: -1 Econ, +1 Martial
*M: -2 Econ, +3 Martial, other effects

Build Wall - Long experience with retaining walls has lead to the idea of a settlement wall for protection (Redshore, Northshore, and Stonepen capitals walled; Northshore and Stonepen partially walled elsewhere)
* S: -1 Econ, minor walls
* M: -1 Econ, major walls

Build Watchtowers - Stone and brick towers for warriors to sit in and scan the horizon for trouble, these towers can help stave off raids and improve response against attacks. (Northshore has some watchtowers)
*S: -1 Econ, some watchtowers
*M: -1 Econ, many watchtowers

Change Policy - Adjust the current Policy to one better fitting the situation
*S: Change Policy to one of the available ones listed below
Balanced - Takes whatever actions seem reasonable. Expand Economy is considered a Policy action for interaction with other effects
Defence - Builds walls and watchtowers
Expansion - Builds new settlements, expands economy, expands forests, and can even create new provinces
Infrastructure - Extended projects
Megaproject Support - Provinces can spend actions in support of a megaproject
Offence - Can recruit warriors and specialists, can send war actions against declared enemies
Progress - Takes studying actions and art patronage
Restoration - Takes stability improving actions
Spirits - Expands Holy Sites
Trade - Sends out trade missions, produce art and luxuries

Copper Mine - A source of copper is known within the People's territory, and it can be expanded to produce not just small amounts of the ore for art purposes, but into a full fledged mine. The effects are unpleasant but the People think they can contain the worst of it.
*S: -3 Econ, +5 Econ next turn, other effects
*M: +3 Econ, other effects

Enforce Law - The king is a servant of the law, and he can use the army to remind people of that fact
* S: 0 to 1 Stability, +1-3 Centralization
* M: 0 to 1 Stability, greater odds of stability gain, +2-3 Centralization
* the more settlements with walls outside of the capital, particularly large walls, the less effective this action is

Expand Economy - Encourage the growth of food producing activities such as farming, pastures, or fishing, depending on where focus is placed
* +1 Econ, potential additional effects
* 6 uses remain before requiring new territory

Expand Forests - The People have knowledge of how to regrow and repair forests, which extends to bringing them to places they have never been, with considerable effort
* S: -1 Econ, grows forest, +1 Econ next turn if in settled territory and controlled
* M: -1 Econ, grows forest, +2 Econ next turn if in settled and controlled territory

Expand Holy Sites - The current places dedicated to the spirits and wisdom have accumulated interesting objects and tellers of stories, but they could be made a bit better
* S: -1 Econ, +1 Mysticism
* M: -2 Econ, +2 Mysticism, +1 Art, potential additional effects

Expand Snail Cultivation - While now more reliably grown and harvested, the snail domestication has only managed to hold environmental changes at bay rather than increase production. More investment would increase cultivation
* S: -1 Econ, +1 Diplo
* M: -2 Econ, +2 Diplo, potential additional effects

Expand Warriors - More men can be inducted into the ranks of the warriors every year and not face major food shortfalls
* S: -1 Econ, +1 Martial
* M: -2 Econ, +2 Martial, potential additional effects

Improve Annual Festival - A festival for every season, but their expansion can help put the People at ease and teach good practices.
* M: -2 Econ, +1 Stability, +1 Art chance for additional effects
* 2M: -3 Econ, +1 Stability, +3 Art, chance for additional effects
* Max Stability: Legitimacy - 1

More Blackbirds - Elite scouts and woodsmen, the Blackbirds are a potent force, if not exactly mainline fighters. More of them could prove useful
* S: -1 Mysticism, +1 Martial more Blackbirds
* M: -1 Econ, -1 Mysticism, +1 Martial, many more Blackbirds, additional effects

More Carrion Eaters - Keepers of sacred and profane knowledge, the Carrion Eaters thread a dangerous path but bring valuable knowledge for treating wounds and inspiring courage, greatly bolstering the morale of warriors by ensuring them that their companions are not doomed if they fall. More could prove useful.
*S: -1 Mysticism, +1 Martial, more Carrion Eaters
*M: -1 Econ, -1 Mysticism, +1 Martial, many more Carrion Eaters, additional effects

More Boats - The things are expensive but oh so useful, so having more of them will increase your capacity for trade, travel, and fishing
* S: -2 Econ, +1 Econ and +1 Diplo next turn, other potential effects
* M: -2 Econ, +1 Econ end of turn, +1 Econ and Diplo next turn, additional effects, tiny chance of innovation;
* used 3 times

New Settlement - There are a few new sites that could have new settlements placed on them: within Northshore (inland to the north into the plains), badlands, eastern hills, northern pastures within Stonepen, southern shores, west of the Black River (west of Northshore province)
* S: +1 Econ next turn, increases number of times Expand Econ can be taken
* M: +1 Econ and +1 Mysticism end of turn, increases the number of times Expand Econ can be taken
Special: Badlands settlement requires a Main action to work at all and only returns as a Secondary, but increases response time and decreases logistics for movement in and out of the badlands
Special: Main action for Eastern Hills, Southern Shores, Black River produces a new province

New Trails - The new coastal settlement is supported mostly by boats and the expansion of the limited trails there would be of great utility
* S: -1 Econ, +1 Centralization, other effects
* M: -1 Econ, +1 Centralization, +1 Diplo, other effects

Proclaim Glory - A recent innovation from the south, by using art the King can promote people to trust his decisions; modified by Diplomacy skill
* S: -2 Art, +1 Legitimacy
* M: -3 Art, -1 Econ, +1 Legitimacy, +1 Stability, potential +1 Prestige
* Max Stability: Legitimacy

Restoration of Order - The people are uncertain, and into that uncertainty bad behaviour can flow. Send in the warriors to reassure people and root out corruption and dissent, restoring the proper function of the People. Max Stability: 0 or Legitimacy, whichever is lower
* S: Gain -1 to 2 Stability
* M: Roll twice, take best result
* modified by Administrative skill

Sailing Mission - The new boats have proven themselves capable of exploring long distances, so what else might they discover along the shores of the sea?
* S: Potential new discoveries
* M: -1 Econ, improved odds of success

Salt Gift - With the saltern, the People have access to tremendous amounts of salt, which can be used to awe outsiders
*S: -5 Diplomacy, random amount of Diplomacy, Art, and Prestige generated
*M: -5 Diplomacy, random amount of Diplomacy, Art, and Prestige generated (min. 1 of each) and the possibility of Mysticism generation

Study Forests - The holy site within the sacred forest is the repository of lore on the forests and the things within them, but could the shamans learn more? 1 Use
* S: Potential new discoveries
* M: -1 Econ, improved odds of success

Study Health - What secrets of nature can be used to improve the health of the People?
* S: Potential new discoveries
* M: -1 Econ, improved odds of success

Study Metal - You have worked out the important features of metals like copper, silver, and gold, but are there other metals one can find?
* S: -1 Mysticism, tiny chance of new insights
* M: -1 Econ, -2 Mysticism, greater chance of new insights

Study Stars - What secrets do the heavens hold when you study the stars and their motions carefully? 7 Uses, 0/4 Uses in a Row
*S: +1 Mysticism, tiny chance of new insights
Cannot be used as a Main action

Survey Lands - Foreigners have discovered strange materials within their lands, are these materials perhaps also found within the lands of the People?
* S: Potential new discoveries
* M: -1 Econ, improved odds of success; used 1 time

Trade Mission - Sending a major caravan to another large group can bring new opportunities and find out more about the outside world
* S: -1 Diplo, additional effects depending on target, +1-2 Diplo end of of turn;
* M: -1 Diplo, -1 Econ, additional effects depending on target, +1-2 Diplo end of turn, +1-2 Diplo next turn

War Mission - You can send raiding parties against groups that have declared themselves hostile. Can only declare war if you have a valid casus belli (currently only if someone declares war first)
* S: Potential loss of Martial, can prevent Econ and Diplo damage when being attacked, can damage enemy Martial and Diplo
* M: Probable loss of Martial, can prevent Econ and Diplo damage when being attacked, can damage enemy Martial, Diplo, and Econ, always has a mid-turn decision point

Extended Projects- Extended Projects are major infrastructure projects that take more than a single Main action to complete but aren't as all consuming as megaprojects
Saltern - Need to find a new location through Survey actions or have more advanced technology to

Reminder: 2 {S} applied to the same project = 1 {M}
Additionally: 2 Mains may have non-linear effects

Mega-Projects - Mega-Projects can require many generations to complete, take an unknown amount of time to do so, and drain Econ while active, but can produce massive benefits once complete. Once chosen, the occupy the Main Focus slot until either completed or stopped early. Early stopping once started does not refund any of the investments and increases social strife. To reduce confusion, mega-projects are not listed as part of the voting project list and must be "written-in".
The Garden - The canal has greatly expanded the People's knowledge of controlling and directing water. A smaller but more personal project has been proposed to improve Valleyhome [Stewards] [King] (1/3-6? action commitment, -1 Econ per action)
Great Dam - The river can run wild and dangerous when the rains come strong, but could it not be controlled by the same principles by which the water on the hills is channelled and contained, merely on a larger scale? [Stewards][King] (4-7? action commitment, -1 Econ per action)
Place to the Stars - The shamans have noticed deeper patterns among the stars than they ever imagined, and setting up long term memories of where things should be could be intensely useful, if also labour intensive to get sufficiently durable markers in place [King] (7-10? action commitment, -1 Econ per action, some Mysticism commitment)

[Stewards] special kicker: Pay 1 Stability to double the effort on a megaproject action, consuming twice the required per turn resources but advancing the job faster. If taking a second main action on a megaproject, requires additional Stability payment to double that as well.

One [Main] action and two [Seconday] actions available. Currently working on the Garden Megaproject, which is being supported by the provinces. Will finish in 1-2 turns with current level of support

[] Art Patronage
[] Black Soil
[] Build Chariots
[] Build Wall
[] Build Watchtowers
[] Change Policy
[] Copper Mine
[] Enforce Law
[] Expand Economy
[] Expand Forests
[] Expand Holy Sites
[] Expand Snail Cultivation
[] Expand Warriors
[] Improve Annual Festival
[] More Blackbirds
[] More Carrion Eaters
[] More Boats
[] New Settlement
[] New Trails
[] Proclaim Glory
[] Restore Order
[] Sailing Mission
[] Salt Gift
[] Study Forests
[] Study Health
[] Study Metal
[] Study Stars
[] Survey Lands
[] Trade Mission
-Target Options: Highland Kingdom, Thunder Horses, Metal Miners, Lowland Minors, Southern Hill People, Dead Priests, Into the Wild
[] War Mission
-Target Options: Northern Nomads

Provinces for Projects: Valleyhome, Redshore, Stonepen, Sacred Forest, Northshore
Major Holy Sites: Rainbow Trail, Sacred Forest, Holy Sea, Horse Valley, White Circle, Warrior's Rest

Click to shrink...

Cool! Someone obviously has bronze. Phooie.

Oh well.

Spoiler: The Plan

Step 1: Main Southshore + Secondary Mine + Secondary TM to HK or SHP

Step 2: Mid turn. Take things that come from the March, if such an option spawns. Remain on Mega Support. Take one Stab of Refugees if they come.

Step 3: Project Turn. Garden should finish or be finished already. Main New Settlement Stonepen + Main New Trails Stonepen. Lowlands probably blew up now

Step 4: Brace for Murphy. I'm just gonna assume the Nomads are back so switch to Offense Policy. Stab is high so take in Lowlands refugees or take them last step.

Step 5: Project Turn. Send Secondary TM to HK or SHP, whichever one we didn't send to in step 1. Main Dam + Kick Dam. Secondary Mega Support policy switch.

Step 6: Mid turn. Assume Dam incomplete. What's coming Senor Murphy?

Step 7: Project Turn. Dam should be or is about to be done. Main East Hills + Secondary TM TH. Plus Secondary War Mission to punch Nomads.

Step 8: Mid Turn. Dam is certainly done. Switch to Expansion.

Step 9: Project Turn. Main New Trails Northshore + Main Improve Festival.

Step 10: Mid turn. Tank what comes.

Step 11: Project turn. Main More Boats. Secondary Switch to Progress Policy. Secondary Expand Warriors.


Stat costs:

Step 1: Econ 5 -> 5(-3 from mine, +5 from mine next turn, +1 from Southshore)(-1 Econ from Provinces:Garden, +2 from Provinces) . Diplo 7(+1) -> 7(+1). Martial 8. Stab 3. Cent 5 -> 4. Myst 8 -> 9. More Econ slots.

Step 2: Econ 3 -> 3 ~(+2)(+1). Diplo 7(+1). Martial 8. Stab 3 -> 3 ~(-1). Cent 4. Myst 9.

Step 3: Econ 4 -> 4(+1 from Stewards, +1 from Garden, + 1 from New Settlement)(-2 from Province: Garden at worst,-1 from trails). Diplo 8(+1). Martial 8. Cent 4 -> 5. Myst 9 -> 10. More Econ Slots.
Stab may be at 2.

Step 4: Switched to Offense, resource drain of some form. Call it 2 Econ.

Step 5: Econ 2 -> 2(-2 from Us: Dam, +3 from Provinces)~(+ 2). Diplo 8(+1) -> 8(+1). Martial 8 -> 9~. Cent 5. Myst 10. Stab 3 or 2 -> (3 or 2) - 1.

Step 6: Resources in flux, sacrificed to Murphy.

Step 7: Econ 3 -> 3(+1 From East Hills, -2 Province Dam, +1 from Dam complete, +1 from Stewards). Diplo 9(+1) -> 9(+1). Martial 9~. Cent 5 -> 4. Myst 10 -> 11. Stab 1 is probably optimistic.

Step 8: Mid turn. Dam is done for sure. Switch to Expansion.

Step 9: Econ 4 -> 4(-1 from Trails, -2 from Festival)(+ 3 from Province actions). Diplo 10(+1). Martial 8~. Cent 4 -> 5. Myst 11. Stab 1 or 2.

Step 10: Take it on our faces.

Step 11: Econ 4-> 4(-2 from Boats, +1 end of turn, +1 next turn). Diplo 11(+2). Martial 8ish. Cent 5. Myst 11. Stab 1 probably.


There ya go. We have enough of a resource buffer that we can handle the shit that comes.

Edit 4: Fixed the math again. <.<

Step 1:

[] [Main] New Settlement - Southshore
[] [Secondary] Copper Mine
[] [Secondary] Trade Mission - Southern Hill People

Voting Moratorium anyone? 15 minutes?

 

[Crazy7s1]

Holy shit, bronze!

And did we finish Garden in one turn?

Click to shrink...

No we still need to finish it.

 

[notgreat]

[] [Main] The Garden
[] [Kick] The Garden
[] [Secondary] Copper Mine
[] [Secondary] Copper Mine x2
Guarantee The Garden completes this turn. Put us in a position to switch policies to Expansion next turn. Get metal.

What do you think of my plan?

Click to shrink...

Not a huge fan. Let us assume it gets 2 turns through (since we'll be distracted by other stuff by then)

T1: 1 progress on garden (spending 3 econ while at 5)
T2: starting at 2+3, spending 1 = 3 province progress available: not certain to complete The Garden.
(+5 added during the turn I think, so not available until the mid-turn for provinces)

Also you don't get a new province action for a long time, did you mean Black River instead of Stonepen?

Thunder Horse Trade mission NOW. They've found the beginnings of Bronze.

Click to shrink...

Eastern TH only- we don't have access to them.

 

[Vocalend]

If that is Bronze Eastern TH has....then that is most likely to be the big thing the Metal Workers have been a fuss about.

 

[BungieONI]

Thunder Horse Trade mission NOW. They've found the beginnings of Bronze.

Click to shrink...

And we have a sedimentary iron deposit in the Bleeding Cliffs which I think are near Northshore, so calm thyself.

 

[Hangwind]

a strange variation on copper that was used by a few of the Eastern Thunder Horse that held an edge much better than regular copper, and was a bit more golden in colour than copper.

Click to shrink...

[] Trade Mission
-Target Options: Highland Kingdom, Thunder Horses, Metal Miners, Lowland Minors, Southern Hill People, Dead Priests, Into the Wild

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A pity that's not an option.

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???

 

[Abby Normal]

Used: 1 times

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Our march taking chariots counts for our innovation counter, btw

Infrastructure - Extended projects

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New policy option...that we can't take because we can't do any right now

* 6 uses remain before requiring new territory

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9 -> 6 econ slots

Salt Gift - With the saltern, the People have access to tremendous amounts of salt, which can be used to awe outsiders
*S: -5 Diplomacy, random amount of Diplomacy, Art, and Prestige generated
*M: -5 Diplomacy, random amount of Diplomacy, Art, and Prestige generated (min. 1 of each) and the possibility of Mysticism generation

Click to shrink...

Interesting...not sure if this is a general thing or a targeted one...

Extended Projects- Extended Projects are major infrastructure projects that take more than a single Main action to complete but aren't as all consuming as megaprojects
Saltern - Need to find a new location through Survey actions or have more advanced technology to

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Line got cut off there, AN. Also shouldn't we have Grand sacrifice in our actions again? Just, you know, crossed out due to stability cap?

 

[Sivantic]

What is however an option is the Thunder Horse. They are our in to them.

[X] [Secondary] Trade Mission - Thunder Horses
[X] [Secondary] Trade Mission - Highland Kingdom

This gets us better relations with our neighbors. We have just had a clear sign that we are too isolated and that has lost us some chance of grabbing tech from our neighbors.

We also have to remember that we had cut relations with both of them generations ago and are now trading with their enemy. "Friend of my Enemy is my Enemy" We don't want their animosity. Anything that drags us into war, distracts us from our own projects, including metalworking and expansion.

 

[Abby Normal]

They are our in to them.

Click to shrink...

...Aren't they at war with them? how and why would they help us trade with their enemies?