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Paths of Civilization

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notgreat said:
Yeah, I have. We will be at 5 econ next turn, with 2-5 turns left on The Garden. Assume that The Garden gives +1 on its own and +1 from stewards: we will be at econ 5 at best, more likely 3-4. Baby Boom has a chance of continuing which would help, but the text seems to be implying that it's ending soon (see: all the recent mentions of weather). That would put us at a safe level, but I think that metal, expanding, and doing some non-health research would be more important than getting our third megaproject.
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Judging by your explanation, you missed my point entirely. Almost every megaproject has delivered some bonuses in a nonlinear fashion. Sacred Forest gave us Econ for every section of forest in our domain, the canal produces art and mysticism, Warding gives us mysticism for every main settlement. My point is, sure, we will get a small completion bonus, but we are much more likely to see an extended boost to Econ production in the area. By that same token, I think we're equally likely to see a mysticism or prestige bonus instead.
 
I'd probably say that if we were to take a non-settlement action urgently, sending a trade mission to the HK while they're working on their Laws is a crucial part of influencing them.

So, who wants the idea of introducing the need for Casus Belli to them?
pblur said:
Wait. Water doesn't flow uphill in aqueducts. That would require a vacuum seal, which would be insanely difficult on those sorts of scales. It's ALL downhill.
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You only need it to be watertight. Which isn't strictly beyond us
 
veekie said:
I'd probably say that if we were to take a non-settlement action urgently, sending a trade mission to the HK while they're working on their Laws is a crucial part of influencing them.

So, who wants the idea of introducing the need for Casus Belli to them?

You only need it to be watertight. Which isn't strictly beyond us
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So far as I'm aware, the Romans didn't do it. It's not just the problem of pressure-tight water pipes, it's the maintenance of them. Much higher demand than simply an open air channel like theirs typically were.
 
pblur said:
So far as I'm aware, the Romans didn't do it. It's not just the problem of pressure-tight water pipes, it's the maintenance of them. Much higher demand than simply an open air channel like theirs typically were.
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The Greeks did it, let alone the Romans. With a wide variety of materials. As did the Turks. In the BC era.

Clay and stone works fine. Some were kilometers long.

Siphons in Roman (and Hellenistic) aqueducts
 
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veekie said:
You only need it to be watertight. Which isn't strictly beyond us
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On that scale, with the ability to maintain a siphon? Yes, it is most certainly beyond us. Even then, I seriously doubt we would be able to establish the siphon in the first place. The suction needed to get water over the threshold would be enormous.
 
pbluekan said:
On that scale, with the ability to maintain a siphon? Yes, it is most certainly beyond us. Even then, I seriously doubt we would be able to establish the siphon in the first place. The suction needed to get water over the threshold would be enormous.
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These people are using the word siphon backwards (and note that in a footnote at the bottom). Their 'siphon' doesn't go over a hill, but rather is to cross a valley. Which clarifies why they don't need it air tight.

Thanks for all the info though. It seems the romans preferred lead pipes (a good choice for nonpotable water.)
 
pblur said:
These people are using the word siphon backwards (and note that in a footnote at the bottom). Their 'siphon' doesn't go over a hill, but rather is to cross a valley. Which clarifies why they don't need it air tight.

Thanks for all the info though. It seems the romans preferred lead pipes (a good choice for nonpotable water.)
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Not backwards but "inverted." It still needs to be semi-airtight because the pressure can't be let out. It also has the problem of detritus and calceous buildup at the base, and needing to go over whatever is in the middle of the valley.

However, they don't need suction to pull the water up and over.

Is there a way to provide the suction needed to pull the water up and over at our stage of technology?
 
Step 1: Main Southshore + Secondary Mine + Secondary TM to HK or SHP

Step 2: Mid turn. Take things that come from the March, if such an option spawns. Remain on Mega Support. Take one Stab of Refugees if they come.

Step 3: Project Turn. Garden should finish or be finished already. Main New Settlement Stonepen + Main New Trails Stonepen. Lowlands probably blew up now

Step 4: Brace for Murphy. I'm just gonna assume the Nomads are back so switch to Offense Policy. Stab is high so take in Lowlands refugees or take them last step.

Step 5: Project Turn. Send Secondary TM to HK or SHP, whichever one we didn't send to in step 1. Main Dam + Kick Dam. Secondary Mega Support policy switch.

Step 6: Mid turn. Assume Dam incomplete. What's coming Senor Murphy?

Step 7: Project Turn. Dam should be or is about to be done. Main East Hills + Secondary TM TH. Plus Secondary War Mission to punch Nomads.

Step 8: Mid Turn. Dam is certainly done. Switch to Expansion.

Step 9: Project Turn. Main New Trails Northshore + Main Improve Festival.

Step 10: Mid turn. Tank what comes.

Step 11: Project turn. Main More Boats. Secondary Switch to Progress Policy. Secondary Expand Warriors.


Stat costs:

Step 1: Econ 5 -> 5(-3 from mine, +5 from mine next turn, +1 from Southshore)(-2 from Province: Garden) . Diplo 7(+1) -> 7(+1). Martial 8. Stab 3. Cent 5 -> 4. Myst 8 -> 9. More Econ slots.

Step 2: Econ 5 -> 5 ~(+2)(+1). Diplo 7(+1). Martial 8. Stab 3 -> 3 ~(-1). Cent 4. Myst 9.

Step 3: Econ 6 -> 6(+1 from Stewards, +1 from Garden, + 1 from New Settlement)(-2 from Province: Garden at worst,-1 from trails). Diplo 8(+1). Martial 8. Cent 4 -> 5. Myst 9 -> 10. More Econ Slots.
Stab may be at 2 and if so Econ is at 9

Step 4: Switched to Offense, resource drain of some form. Call it 2 Econ.

Step 5: Econ 4 -> 4(-2 from Us: Dam, -1 from Province: Dam , +2 from Provinces)~(+ 2). Diplo 8(+1) -> 8(+1). Martial 8 -> 9~. Cent 5. Myst 10. Stab 3 or 2 -> (3 or 2) - 1.

Step 6: Resources in flux, sacrificed to Murphy.

Step 7: Econ 3 -> 3(+1 From East Hills, -2 Province Dam, +1 from Dam complete, +1 from Stewards). Diplo 9(+1) -> 9(+1). Martial 9~. Cent 5 -> 4. Myst 10 -> 11. Stab 1 is probably optimistic.

Step 8: Mid turn. Dam is done for sure. Switch to Expansion.

Step 9: Econ 4 -> 4(-1 from Trails, -2 from Festival)(+ 3 from Province actions). Diplo 10(+1). Martial 8~. Cent 4 -> 5. Myst 11. Stab 1 or 2.

Step 10: Take it on our faces.

Step 11: Econ 4-> 4(-2 from Boats, +1 end of turn, +1 next turn). Diplo 11(+2). Martial 8ish. Cent 5. Myst 11. Stab 1 probably.

Ignore the above math.

There ya go. We have enough of a resource buffer that we can handle the shit that comes.

Edit: oh whoops I fuckled up my math one sec.

Edit 2: Ok fixed it.

Edit 3: Ok now the math is good.​
 
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Umi-san said:
Not backwards but "inverted." It still needs to be semi-airtight because the pressure can't be let out. It also has the problem of detritus and calceous buildup at the base, and needing to go over whatever is in the middle of the valley.

However, they don't need suction to pull the water up and over.

Is there a way to provide the suction needed to pull the water up and over at our stage of technology?
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If we can get it airtight? Archimedean screws
 
Umi-san said:
Not backwards but "inverted." It still needs to be semi-airtight because the pressure can't be let out. It also has the problem of detritus and calceous buildup at the base, and needing to go over whatever is in the middle of the valley.

However, they don't need suction to pull the water up and over.

Is there a way to provide the suction needed to pull the water up and over at our stage of technology?
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Not... really? An archimedian screw is technically possible though we're a long ways from that complex of mechanism. It's also strictly limited to < 30 ft. of intervening rise due to air pressure.
 
Do we get a free policy change midturn after completing a megaproject? IIRC we specifically don't since we might want to keep going on megas...
 
Oh good.

Well now that trade mission to Xohyssiri is locked in, we really do have to send trade missions to the Thunder Horse and Highland Kingdom. Our Caravans will be going straight between their territories. We would be trading with one of their most hated rivals, after we had cut off trade from both groups for generations. Not ensuring good relations with them has a chance of causing problems.
 
pblur said:
Qanats don't siphon or inverse siphon, so you don't need water or airtightness.
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sounds a lot like this

@DocMatoi Oh, that. I'd thought the Chinese invented it? pblur seems less than confident. If we invent it we could probably do it w/ wind mills, right? Like direct a river into a pool beneath a cliff or something, have a bunch of wind mills built on top, and let them draw water up pipes? If we do it cyclically we could get around a 30ft limit by having the mills draw it up 6 meters, let the water go down a pipe into a new hole, and then have a new mill lift it up from that hole, etc. It would be a major pain, though.

Edit: "The principle is also found in pescalators, which are Archimedes screws designed to lift fish safely from ponds and transport them to another location. This technology is used primarily at fish hatcheries, where it is desirable to minimize the physical handling of fish." This maybe helps with the damage to ecologies that can result from constructing a dam, tho I think it might be fair to say that there's unlikely to be significant damage as a result of building in lower valleyhome. The fish present in the badlands downstream would have great trouble going up the cataract that would be downstream of the dam.

@BungieONI Why would we need to switch into offensive policy to deal with a nomad raid? We can just dedicate a main war mission while letting our provinces not worry. Only two provinces can be attacked by such a raid: the March and Northshore. The latter is defended by a river to the west, so only the March is likely.

We therefore wouldn't need to waste actions shifting into and out of the offensive policy.


pblur said:
Do we get a free policy change midturn after completing a megaproject? IIRC we specifically don't since we might want to keep going on megas...
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AN is a kind god. He might give us a choice. I personally hope he doesn't so that continuing on with the Dam is the more efficient choice <3 <3 I want it finished. It's so old. & we could build dams in the march and etc.
 
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Umi-san said:
sounds a lot like this

@DocMatoi Oh, that. I'd thought the Chinese invented it? pblur seems less than confident. If we invent it we could probably do it w/ wind mills, right? Like direct a river into a pool beneath a cliff or something, have a bunch of wind mills built on top, and let them draw water up pipes? If we do it cyclically we could get around a 30ft limit by having the mills draw it up 6 meters, let the water go down a pipe into a new hole, and then have a new mill lift it up from that hole, etc. It would be a major pain, though.

@BungieONI Why would we need to switch into offensive policy to deal with a nomad raid? We can just dedicate a main war mission while letting our provinces not worry. Only two provinces can be attacked by such a raid: the March and Northshore. The latter is defended by a river to the west, so only the March is likely.

We therefore wouldn't need to waste actions shifting into and out of the offensive policy.



AN is a kind god. He might give us a choice. I personally hope he doesn't so that continuing on with the Dam is the more efficient choice <3 <3 I want it finished. It's so old. & we could build dams in the march and etc.
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It'd be a free switch. Remember that we can auto switched if attacked. And the March does count for "Us" being attacked. No action required.


Edit: @Tylonius We can do both.
 
Sivantic said:
Oh good.

Well now that trade mission to Xohyssiri is locked in, we really do have to send trade missions to the Thunder Horse and Highland Kingdom. Our Caravans will be going straight between their territories. We would be trading with one of their most hated rivals, after we had cut off trade from both groups for generations. Not ensuring good relations with them has a chance of causing problems.
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The TH for one would already have been the go-throughs for the DP diplomatic mission. So idk if we *have* to send it to them, as they'd probably understand the favor?

BungieONI said:
It'd be a free switch. Remember that we can auto switched if attacked. And the March does count for "Us" being attacked. No action required.


Edit: @Tylonius We can do both.
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We'd still have to pay to switch out, would we not? Or is that free too?

Still don't know if switching the provinces to an offensive policy is still worthwhile though. A Main War Mission should be enough.

&yeah we can do both.

@Academia Nut To clarify for others, can we kick a provincial megaproject action?
 
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