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Paths of Civilization

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ctulhuslp said:
If Trade gave protection against the attacks, we would not be presented with the ultimatums when two guys who we were trading with started fighting each other. Being strong and lacking conflicts of interest works better.
Like, HK would totally started war, trade or no, if we did not scare them away with the talking rocks.
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If they like us enough they're going to be disinclined to go to war with us or hurt our traders during their war and have our goods cut off as a result.

Also, I honestly planned for this period to be a martial-increasing one, too. Having Trade actions be taken by the provinces simultaneously and following this period with a Progress/science one would balance out the macho/hawkish culture shift that would occur, while still providing a balancing disincentive to attack us and giving our new and newly vulnerable provinces protection. Going martial also helps the March integrate - if Martial assistance is actually necessary for such to occur, which I doubt, because it's a cultural issue stemming from their separation from others.

The only main downside to a Trade policy is that unless we actually choose to do an Expansion policy for 1-2 turns, the provinces aren't actually going to make settlements themselves. But if we do choose to do it, we won't get the art that will help balance out martial growth and integrate our culture further. *shrugs helplessly* It will depend on what AN says our chiefs have to say about how much trouble the March will be if we wait to start cultural assimilation. If they say it's fine, doing Expansion is a better path due to the increased contact and lack of an action cost to us. If they don't, we'll need to do Policy: Trade and do our own martial + Main Settlement - Stonepen/Northshore + etc. actions.
 
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*Shrugs* We'll have to see how our decisions for this turn pan out. That said, I see Southshore+Mine main actions as plausible, while we let the provinces finish up Garden for us. Given the stability cap, we can probably kick. They've both been a fair time coming.

It all rests on the Economy numbers, obviously, but it seems doable. Trade isn't really on my radar- we're doing a trade mission with the Dead Priests mid-turn now, and have Saltern bonus Diplo that basically means people come to us.

All roads lead to Valleyhome.
 
drake_azathoth said:
*Shrugs* We'll have to see how our decisions for this turn pan out. That said, I see Southshore+Mine main actions as plausible, while we let the provinces finish up Garden for us. Given the stability cap, we can probably kick. They've both been a fair time coming.

It all rests on the Economy numbers, obviously, but it seems doable. Trade isn't really on my radar- we're doing a trade mission with the Dead Priests mid-turn now, and have Saltern bonus Diplo that basically means people come to us.

All roads lead to Valleyhome.
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Kk.

I want the long-awaited Dam to be finished more than I want Trade.
I want Trade as a policy more for the art benefits, which *are* given by Progress.
But I also want Trade because it gives us more information about the outside world, and maybe helps us absorb ideas that other people have come up w/. I don't feel that a single mission to the DP will provide enough information and diplomatic power.
Maybe I'd be satisfied after an additional one to the SHP(, who we know next to nothing about and who would provide an alternate trading partner while the TH & HK squabble). Progress offers nice benefits.


Also, y'all just need to type and read fast.
 
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Citino said:
So would we just single kick the province action, or double kick it?
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Single.

Then kick the dam when we start it.

This way we end up staying at/around 3 stability, and don't waste the stability Shapers gives us at the end of a land management project. Plus, kicking the dam is likely to mean it ends in a turn and frees us for other actions while giving Valleyhome an even stronger boost in economics, meaning that our non-problematic core will grow in density.
 
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Citino said:
Doesn't single kicking have a pretty good risk of not finishing it in one turn?
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For the Garden? No.

+1 action for the midturn choice +2 province actions +1 kick = 4 for a 3-6? megaproject. Note that those #'s have been that way for a damned long time while our technology has probably progressed.

Even if it doesn't finish in a single turn it kind of doesn't matter. We can just do The Dam with a main action anyways, and then let the provinces grind away at the Dam the turn after that while we do other stuff. Aka it pushes things back a little bit but not too badly, and the overflow from the province actions (if applicable) will just be directed into either an even better dam or a new action.
 
@Umi-san
While I do support getting 2 megaprojects in a row, I'm not so certain about the dam as well. We'll just barely have the econ to finish the dam, we've been riding high on econ due to the baby boom. That might not last.

Worse than that though is the expectations our people will have. While 2 I think is reasonable, going to 3 might start making our people think that this is the new normal, that we should be doing megaprojects all the time. This is very dangerous, since once they run out of practical and useful projects, we'll have to either start building useless monuments or start facing unrest for basically no good reason. (We'd almost certainly go for the latter, but it's still something that we don't really need).

The dam would be useful, but for safety reasons we have to do it in Lower Valleyhome- and that means that we won't get a lot of the advantages it could bring (things like regulating the waterflow so the river is more constant). It would still be very useful for adding further drought resistance, so maybe it's worthwhile anyway, but it'll still take 1-2 full turns to complete. Let's see how we are after The Garden completes, there's almost certainly going to be some sort of disaster popping up soon since we're doing too well.
 
Yeah, the dam seems too much right now. We can put it off for awhile while we poke at the rest of the civ to make sure it's all working well, and hopefully prevent any major issues from cropping up.

I mean, we still need to fix the Stallion Tribe integration issue, among other things. And that doesn't even include stuff that is sure to pop up on its own over time. 2 megaprojects in 2 turns is plenty for now.
 
I agree that we should wait to see the result. Doing so is, after all, inevitable.

I'm just tired of having the dam unfinished. It's our oldest megaproject.
 
@Academia Nut What would happen if we hit the full x8 Exterminatus button? I can't help but imagine that it would be terribly startling to see a culture that just screams "weakness" suddenly go "FUCK THIS, FUCK THAT, FUCK YOU, FUCK EVERYTHING!" I'm kind of curious as to what cultural changes such an event would produce. (Beyond, you know, the giant patch of burning land and ruins)
 
Hangwind said:
@Academia Nut What would happen if we hit the full x8 Exterminatus button? I can't help but imagine that it would be terribly startling to see a culture that just screams "weakness" suddenly go "FUCK THIS, FUCK THAT, FUCK YOU, FUCK EVERYTHING!" I'm kind of curious as to what cultural changes such an event would produce. (Beyond, you know, the giant patch of burning land and ruins)
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Either cultural shame or rampant self justification and rationalizing. Either way, not healthy.
 
Hangwind said:
@Academia Nut What would happen if we hit the full x8 Exterminatus button? I can't help but imagine that it would be terribly startling to see a culture that just screams "weakness" suddenly go "FUCK THIS, FUCK THAT, FUCK YOU, FUCK EVERYTHING!" I'm kind of curious as to what cultural changes such an event would produce. (Beyond, you know, the giant patch of burning land and ruins)
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Actually, if we get another province and have the Stallion Tribes help, we could pull of a x11 war mission. (4 from us + 5 from province + 2 from Stallion Tribes) at the cost of a mere 5 stability.

God, that would be insane...
DocMatoi said:
Either cultural shame or rampant self justification and rationalizing. Either way, not healthy.
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Considering kicking can only be used on a defensive war, there really wouldn't be much shame or self-justification. There would definitely be cultural damage, but I don't really think it would take the form of our people feeling guilty about wiping out an enemy that attacked us.

Edit: If we did it now, I could see something like Greater Good evolving into an honor trait of sorts, which makes it so our people go nuts if their homes are ever attacked... with the con of having our people go nut whenever their homes are attacked.
 
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Honestly, I'm more wondering what our neighbors would think.

Neighbors: Oh, those Ymmri, they're no real threat.

*Dead Priests/Raider Group/Nurglites attack*

*WAAAAGH*

Neighbors: :oo_O:confused:
 
I've been thinking, and I hate myself for saying this, but it might be worthwhile to open the mine next turn. It'd have to be as a main action (otherwise The Garden won't have the econ needed to complete) but getting more metal is huge. We are in dire need of expansion, but mechanically we need 2 more to see a benefit. If we switch to Policy: Expansion the turn after, we'll hit that mark at the same time we would if we expanded to Southshore this turn.

There's a good chance of disaster striking soon, and I think metal is better than one more province- though two provinces would be better than metal IMO.
 
@Academia Nut I actually have a question: would extended projects count for our bonuses on completing engineering projects? Previously you stated only certain megaprojects counted...
 
notgreat said:
@Umi-san
While I do support getting 2 megaprojects in a row, I'm not so certain about the dam as well. We'll just barely have the econ to finish the dam, we've been riding high on econ due to the baby boom. That might not last.

Worse than that though is the expectations our people will have. While 2 I think is reasonable, going to 3 might start making our people think that this is the new normal, that we should be doing megaprojects all the time. This is very dangerous, since once they run out of practical and useful projects, we'll have to either start building useless monuments or start facing unrest for basically no good reason. (We'd almost certainly go for the latter, but it's still something that we don't really need).

The dam would be useful, but for safety reasons we have to do it in Lower Valleyhome- and that means that we won't get a lot of the advantages it could bring (things like regulating the waterflow so the river is more constant). It would still be very useful for adding further drought resistance, so maybe it's worthwhile anyway, but it'll still take 1-2 full turns to complete. Let's see how we are after The Garden completes, there's almost certainly going to be some sort of disaster popping up soon since we're doing too well.
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Have you considered the Econ bonuses we will get from The Garden both directly because of the project completion and any special bonuses the project may give, and indirectly as the farms in the area are expanded as a result? I expect it to be significant, as the project is very specifically related to Econ.
 
pbluekan said:
Have you considered the Econ bonuses we will get from The Garden both directly because of the project completion and any special bonuses the project may give, and indirectly as the farms in the area are expanded as a result? I expect it to be significant, as the project is very specifically related to Econ.
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Yeah, I have. We will be at 5 econ next turn, with 2-5 turns left on The Garden. Assume that The Garden gives +1 on its own and +1 from stewards: we will be at econ 5 at best, more likely 3-4. Baby Boom has a chance of continuing which would help, but the text seems to be implying that it's ending soon (see: all the recent mentions of weather). That would put us at a safe level, but I think that metal, expanding, and doing some non-health research would be more important than getting our third megaproject.
 
notgreat said:
Yeah, I have. We will be at 5 econ next turn, with 2-5 turns left on The Garden. Assume that The Garden gives +1 on its own and +1 from stewards: we will be at econ 5 at best, more likely 3-4. Baby Boom has a chance of continuing which would help, but the text seems to be implying that it's ending soon (see: all the recent mentions of weather). That would put us at a safe level, but I think that metal, expanding, and doing some non-health research would be more important than getting our third megaproject.
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Fear not.

The Plan I am working on should complete every stated pet project, with Econ in the good.

Gimme about a half hour to write it up?
 
@notgreat
Kindly remember that we can abandon the megaproject to be completed by the provinces with relatively little diminishment of effect, other than a loss of Symphony bonuses.

Economy 6 - 3 (secondary copper mine) - 1 (province main) - 1 (kicker) = 1. So yeah, we'd end up w/ one too few Econ if we did it as a secondary only. However, we could always do a Main Southshore + Main Copper Mine (regrettably sacrificing my beloved Trade Mission to the SHP).

This would give us +3 Econ and balance out the -2 province -1 kicker costs to finish The Garden, w/ the garden likely finishing this turn, leaving us at 6 -1 (midturn garden) + BB(?) = ~5/8. I.e., more than enough Econ to do The Dam w/o worry. Which would look something like Main Dam + Main Eastern Hills + Province actions + kicker = ~5/8 Econ -4 (Dam cost) + 1 last turn settlement + x(Garden result) = 2/5 + BB(?).

We'd thus gain a province action and a megaproject. I don't feel that doing three megaprojects in a row is going to cause a lingering malaise as our people go "I want more megaprojects!! QQ" I also feel that while we DO need to poke around in the March or whatever, that's not going to happen in a single turn, especially in a turn where we're switching gears to expansion + a mine, and the dam provides extensive long term benefits in the form of a reservoir for the lower valleyhome, an aquaculture site, and potentially a place we can redirect water toward EH from.
 
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