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Paths of Civilization

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veekie said:
...you kind of need rivers to feed a canal. Making a canal from scratch is very far from feasible. Redirecting feeder streams at least can be done.
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Academia Nut said:
Still, the important thing was in getting a good sense of where to put the canal, and it was quickly decided that there was a ridge system to the north-west of the main valley that ran on a generally southwestern course. Following it would give them a general path to follow that wouldn't require major diversion or require something impossible like digging through a hill.
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Academia Nut said:
While they had inevitably diverted water away from other locations - the final part of the project was diverting a number of streams to reliably fill it - the canal also watered areas that only tended to get seasonal rains, massively expanding the amount of land that could be watered as step farms or orchards, while also providing better transport of bulk goods.
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ctulhuslp said:
Black River; they mean to make aqueducts from the river. Not sure how feasible it is: true aqueducts were made to let the water flow under the gravity alone and required far better stonework and concrete than we have. The Garden is probably something vastly lesser - just a small channel from the river to the city itself.

I still do not like Black River province because of how far it is. This will be in third 'layer' of provinces, where to our east (and south?) we do not even have two such layer (zero to the east of Valleyhome).
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*I* don't mean to make aqueducts i.e. roman style elevated rivers, though doing so would be helpful to get the water across valleys and over the next ridge. Instead, I totally, 100% do mean "let's dig channels from the river into the land" because doing so will result in more fertile soil and easier growth. Remember that rivers flow downhill, so one can always build a channel from farther up to get the water where you want it.

I 100% plan on taking SS, EH, and BR, in that order. BR would be an unusually exposed position but would make Northshore into a core province due to having no external border. EH would be a theoretically first layer province but ultimately will always be so, even if we extend further into the hills past it toward the TH. The only way to fix that is to start assimilating the neighboring lowland minors and that would ruin our neutrality.
 
I'm still hoping we can send Trade missions next turn to the Thunder Horse and Highland Kingdom. We are in a rare time of ceasefire and should see what sort of things they've been up to and what tech we can steal.
 
Sivantic said:
I'm still hoping we can send Trade missions next turn to the Thunder Horse and Highland Kingdom. We are in a rare time of ceasefire and should see what sort of things they've been up to and what tech we can steal.
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So basically, this plan:
[Main] Southshore
[Secondary] Trade Mission - HK
[Secondary] Trade Mission - TH
[Kick] The Garden

Provinces (*dere gakusei voice* w-why did you abandon us sensei!!):
[Main via Law] The Garden
[Main via 2ndaries] The Garden

Downside: Lack of gov action on megaproject = lack of symphony bonuses = less overflow.
Upside: We learn about the TH and HK and they aren't like "*jealous ex voice* why did you visit the DP and not us... TRAITOR!!!"
 
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@Academia Nut, how come, when we were doing the Saltern, did our provinces not have a Secondary action spare? They combined two Secondaries to form a Main, and our policy doubles a Policy action, so why didn't it double that Main instead of the spare Secondary? It would've given the same amount of progress but with an extra Secondary to do whatever, like Expand Economy.
 
Andres110 said:
how come, when we were doing the Saltern, did our provinces not have a Secondary action spare? They combined two Secondaries to form a Main, and our policy doubles a Policy action, so why didn't it double that Main instead of the spare Secondary? It would've given the same amount of progress but with an extra Secondary to do whatever, like Expand Economy.
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Because action bloat kills games and thus I decided that for this I was going to take the least efficient path.
 
Umi-san said:
So basically, this plan:
[Main] Southshore
[Secondary] Trade Mission - HK
[Secondary] Trade Mission - TH
[Kick] The Garden

Provinces (*dere gakusei voice* w-why did you abandon us sensei!!):
[Main via Law] The Garden
[Main via 2ndaries] The Garden

Downside: Lack of gov action on megaproject = lack of symphony bonuses = less overflow.
Upside: We learn about the TH and HK and they aren't like "*jealous ex voice* why did you visit the DP and not us... TRAITOR!!!"
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> no Copper Mine

How about no. Copper is more important than trade missions, even if the political climate is better than usual.
 
ctulhuslp said:
> no Copper Mine

How about no. Copper is more important than trade missions, even if the political climate is better than usual.
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*sighs* y'all w/ ur damn need for domestic copper over international ties and opium. These are the things that will prevent us from being attacked as we solidify our position as the local neutral drug lord and create states dependent on the frivolous luxuries we supply to their noble classes.

Personally, I support Main The Garden + Main Southshore and then barreling straight into The Dam the next turn + idk, either mine, trade, or trails.
 
@Academia Nut
Are our holy places function as training area for holy warriors? Or are they separate, like Blackbird tree houses in forests and carrion eaters stationed in barracks?

Do we have wells? How deep do they reach?

How sophisticated are our traps? Deadfalls, pitfalls, and snares? Are death by animals still significant?

Have our people developed luxury eating? Not for nutrients but for enjoyment.
 
Umi-san said:
*sighs* y'all w/ ur damn need for domestic copper over international ties and opium. These are the things that will prevent us from being attacked as we solidify our position as the local neutral drug lord and create states dependent on the frivolous luxuries we supply to their noble classes.

Personally, I support Main The Garden + Main Southshore and then barreling straight into The Dam the next turn + idk, either mine, trade, or trails.
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Yeah, no. Copper tools are mandatory, at least because they make road building (among other things) easier, thus decreasing our communication problems.
Especially since amounts of copper than can be transported all that way are rather minuscule compared to what can be produced domestically; transportation of bulk goods is a major challenge. We'll get better at it once we get better boats, but even then there will be the problem of transportation to or from the body of water.
 
ctulhuslp said:
> no Copper Mine

How about no. Copper is more important than trade missions, even if the political climate is better than usual.
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Why are you so insistent on rushing our tech advances? I don't understand why we need a Copper mine, now. The trade missions are better now, because (assuming they aren't fighting against each other) there is no better time than now to contact the HK and TH with a renewal of our trade goods.

Honestly, I want more expand temple actions to increase our literacy rate. Except, Veekie shot expand temples in the heart a couple pages back. "It'll cause problems in our society", "We've done enough, say I Veekie. let's do something useful, say I Veekie. Jump on the trust Veekie train, say I everyone." , blah, blah, more wise notes of Veekie.... Veekie wins, hallelujah!

I'm just salty because I fail at online arguments.
 
drake_azathoth said:
I'll be honest I'm leery as hell about trading for opium. Legit uses aside it's dangerous.
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I agree, but tbh don't care so long as we're selling it to rich idiotic nobles as an ostensible "medical" good. Things that negatively affect the impoverished and despairing are bad; things that negatively affect the rich and ennui-afflicted are ignorable.

A big problem is abuse within our own country. In order to grow enough for export and keep drug abuse from becoming endemic we'd have to institute harsh internal controls on production and distribution.
ctulhuslp said:
Yeah, no. Copper tools are mandatory, at least because they make road building (among other things) easier, thus decreasing our communication problems.
Especially since amounts of copper than can be transported all that way are rather minuscule compared to what can be produced domestically; transportation of bulk goods is a major challenge. We'll get better at it once we get better boats, but even then there will be the problem of transportation to or from the body of water.
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So basically copper tools (which we are already importing) do [x, y, and z already stated things].

100% disagree; even now our boats can likely carry quite a bit, at minimum a day's production from the whole cycle of a single copper-age copper mine per boat, and copper mining from a single mine will produce less copper than copper acquired from a Kingdom with a bunch of mines. So basically it's the first step, but the immediate advantages it is likely to provide are miniscule. Trade Missions that will guarantee positive relations with the people who border us & can be negotiated with (i.e. not nomads) are vital. So, to some degree, is a painkiller.

& yeah, transporting them from the MW to the boats is some trouble, but so is transporting them from the copper mine outward. Rented carts or establishing a permanent emissary with carts and traders who regularly go up and come down are obvious solutions for the former.

Edit: @Marlin I support expanding temples but, tbh, not right now. I just care about capturing all the different province >.> sand then doing art + trade advances to help trails integrate the March more >.> and then getting an internal metal supply >.> and then researching trees and the stars and etc. at which point more temples would be useful.
 
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*looks at thread
*saw salt fire
*go back into 6 hour meeting

I can feel my brain power oozing out listening to clients' pointy hair boss.
 
VoidZero said:
Are our holy places function as training area for holy warriors? Or are they separate, like Blackbird tree houses in forests and carrion eaters stationed in barracks?

Do we have wells? How deep do they reach?

How sophisticated are our traps? Deadfalls, pitfalls, and snares? Are death by animals still significant?

Have our people developed luxury eating? Not for nutrients but for enjoyment.
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Yes to all, and none of that is particularly relevant since everything but the wells and Blackbird training predates agriculture.
 
Marlin said:
Why are you so insistent on rushing our tech advances? I don't understand why we need a Copper mine, now. The trade missions are better now, because (assuming they aren't fighting against each other) there is no better time than now to contact the HK and TH with a renewal of our trade goods.

Honestly, I want more expand temple actions to increase our literacy rate. Except, Veekie shot expand temples in the heart a couple pages back. "It'll cause problems in our society", "We've done enough, say I Veekie. let's do something useful, say I Veekie. Jump on the trust Veekie train, say I everyone." , blah, blah, more wise notes of Veekie.... Veekie wins, hallelujah!

I'm just salty because I fail at online arguments.
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Because metalworking is a force multiplier to any engineering action.
Besides, I am not one wanting to rush tech: I am one of Stability party, I am just now happy enough with the Stability to look for tech. And honestly, given that Metalworkers have been metalworking for centuries at this point, we are not rushing it, we are rather late to the mining game if anything. I am not rushing as much as catching up wrt metalworking.

Umi-san said:
So basically copper tools (which we are already importing) do [x, y, and z already stated things].

100% disagree; even now our boats can likely carry quite a bit, at minimum a day's production from the whole cycle of a single copper-age copper mine per boat, and copper mining from a single mine will produce less copper than copper acquired from a Kingdom with a bunch of mines. So basically it's the first step, but the immediate advantages it is likely to provide are miniscule. Trade Missions that will guarantee positive relations with the people who border us & can be negotiated with (i.e. not nomads) are vital. So, to some degree, is a painkiller.

& yeah, transporting them from the MW to the boats is some trouble, but so is transporting them from the copper mine outward. Rented carts or establishing a permanent emissary with carts and traders who regularly go up and come down are obvious solutions for the former.
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Relying on the foreign power wrt vital resources is rarely a good idea, because it means they hold you by the balls. We can mitigate it by diversifying the sources, but it is still not the best of ideas.

@Academia Nut , how would the amount of copper from copper mine compare to the imported amounts?
 
Umi-san said:
I agree, but tbh don't care so long as we're selling it to rich idiotic nobles as an ostensible "medical" good. Things that negatively affect the impoverished and despairing are bad; things that negatively affect the rich and ennui-afflicted are ignorable.
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With our values I do not think we have very many fully useless elites, since to hold any meaningful power one must demonstrate some level of competence. Some of them are corrupt, many are less skilled than they would be in an ideal world but I do not see "idiotic rich nobles."
 
ctulhuslp said:
@Umi-san , and here we have it: imported copper effectively limits the use of copper to only art and stuff. We cannot dawdle on it.
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We can dawdle. We have dawdled on the copper mine. This is the perfect time to restart trade, copper mine can be pushed back by at least one turn. If we don't restart trade with HK and TH this turn then when we have already cut trade ties with the both of them for generations. I fear we will become that ninth cousin who sometimes gives children hard stale cookies. Somewhat valuable, but in the end nothing bad would happen if they attacked us, because we can't possibly be that strong.
 
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