Sorry, but integrating the March and improving our internal network of roads is more important to me than establishing trade ties. If they want to go back to war, that's their loss.
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
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Sorry, but integrating the March and improving our internal network of roads is more important to me than establishing trade ties. If they want to go back to war, that's their loss.
- Location
- Austria
On the other hand, if we do not colonise a Southshore next turn, @Karugus will have an aneurysm.
Stale cookies?
We've given them a cure from cholera; that's just a bit more valuable than 'stale cookies'. Just a tiny bit, yeah. I mean, that's one, one of deadliest diseases against which they would be helpless if not for our advice, given freely? Meh, just 'stale cookies', nothing worth mentioning.
More seriously, if they are so full of shit they can't understand the value of such gift, they can go fuck themselves. Even Dead Priests, who make the raiding-pillaging-raping nomads go "hey, that's a bit too evil" and make literal walls of skulls, understood just what the hell of a gift it was.
I'm thinking that one of the likely results from redlining centralization is the loss of at least one province (reorganize the provinces). It would be worth it to be able to improve our communication efficiency and integrate the March, but it is something to consider.
pbluekan
Somethin's Fucky ...
- Location
- Trumpistan
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*reads the rest of the post*
*sigh*
If you want to make your argument heard, provide supporting evidence for your position. On the subject of copper? Well, we don't want it for the tech advance. We already have the tech advance. We want it so that a domestic supply exists and it can be used more widely for tools.
- Location
- California
We can just main both of them with a double Secondary on one. I know that's my plan.
- Location
- Austria
Additionally, since we are behind on internal copper, it's less of advance and more of keeping up. We are leading in the healthcare tech and probably at agriculture (although not!Egyptians might have something to say about it), but otherwise we are not all that great.
Oh, and we are really good at administration and concentrated application of our manpower to the task. That's not a tech but a value though, so I am not sure it counts.
It's what I want to do too; and leave finishing The Garden to the provinces. It will be slow, but possible, and we really need both mine and a province.
VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
This is what usually transpirs in our meetings, today is no exception.
Of course the scope (work) it is not explicitly mentioned and is instead "implied" in the proposal.
No wonder lawyers, accountants, and prjoect managers are jaded as hell.
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I am pretty sure administration is a form of "tech". It may not be as sexy or as tangible as copper tools, but it's a form of technology.
- Location
- Austria
Well, yes, but our particular bonuses to it come mostly from either Divine Stewards or Symphony more than any outstanding tech advantage...oh. We have The Law though, that probably counts. Fair enough.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
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The Path > Goal: Re-integrate the Marcher Peoples.
Of note since I am a romantic I kinda like these guys, at least as a noble but foolish knight image. Most of the time though they just make me shake my head.
Sorry @ctulhuslp this tries to plan around the Garden as best as possible.
Step 1: Kick the Province Garden actions(Yes we can do this, wish I could find the quote) + Secure Southshore Province + Main Copper Mine.
This also opens Path: Assimilate HK and Path: Assimilate TH(Yet to be written). By doing this we drop Cent to 4 and can take a Main New Trails Stonepen next turn.
Two Main actions from Province plus Kick and whatever we get from the midturn should hopefully complete it.
Lowland tensions will be sparking again. However since we have not fought any of them in living memory of anyone they have little reason to attack. Even the TH have a limited inclination.
Hopefully the visit to the Xohyssiri doesn't go all gwygo on us *crosses fingers*. If it does weeeeelllll... good luck digging us out?
Southshore is *Yoink!* away from the HK.
The only issue will be refugees from the Lowlands if the Clusterfuck Engine gets going again.
Step 1 ALT path: Finish the Garden and Kick it + Secure Southshore Province.
This also opens Path: Assimilate HK and Path: Assimilate TH(Yet to be written). By doing this we drop Cent to 4 and can take a Main New Trails Stonepen next turn.
Three actions from Province, one from us plus Kick and whatever we get from the midturn will certainly complete it.
We finish at 3 Stability either way so we can take any hits that come unless Murphy decides to Smite us with his Dong of Doom.
Step 2: Switch to Expansion on the mid turn if Garden finished. If not stay Mega support to finish. Besides Expansion, Trade could also work but hhahaha no, I'm keeping this planning simple.
If an option regarding the March appears, take it.
Lowlands FooF is probably already igniting again. We will have 3 Stability and it would be wise to only spend one on refugees, try and limit our cultural drift problem. Two if the Marcher action requires it. Keep an eye out for if we have to actively defend ourselves. If we do this plan becomes much much more difficult.
Step 3: Grab a Main New Settlement Stonepen + Main New Trails Stonepen. Garden is done either way.
Can't completely rely on the Provinces to expand a settlement into Stonepen but that's okay. Copper tools should help with trails, even if they will only have limited propagation time, now is the time to grab it. By this point hopefully East Hills will be expanded.
Shit will almost certainly be flying down there. Stay out of it as much as possible. Keep an eye out for scary shit that wants to tank our Stability. *my Precious!*
The reason to take a settlement in Stonepen beisdes the econ boosts is that in that death of taxes update we made a settlement in Stonepen and it acted as a stop off point for warriors going to the March and we had narrative indications that it helped the connection. Maining a Settlement and New Trails might encourage a connective hub area as a hypothetical example. Eye the Lowlands like a magnesium fire. Something will have invariably exploded.
Also the Nomads are probably back to crash on our sofa and drink our beer so... Might have to auto switch to Offense policy so Stonepen and Northshore can send war missions while we handle the other shit. Means we have to get a bit more manual so... I'm just gonna assume for the rest of this that we switched.
Step 3 ALT path: Grab a Main Copper Mine + Main New Trails Stonepen.
This grabs a Mine at the same time as a New Trails. Less time for tools to propagate but it will help tangentially. Same warnings about the Lowlands.
Nomads too. I need to go fix my HK assimilation plan, I forgot about them for that. Whoops.
Step 4: Take appropriate Mid-turn actions.
Don't watch the pot basically. Hopefully the War in the Lowlands hasn't been too bad. Double hopefully we have a Marcher oriented action we can take.
Nomad War the 35th is hopefully small. Ish.
Waaagh! are bad juju.
Step 5: Take a single main Improve Festival. Grab East Hills. Good thing the Offense policy has our warrior/chariot expansion covered.
We will almost definitively have taken a Stability hit by this point. This is basically three generations from now. Good luck to the Lowlands if they kept from blowing up. Gelling of our social norms is good and bad, the good things will be made solid and the bad will to. It is more important however that we are a united people first before we can get to working on our moral fibre.
Nomad War the 35th will hopefully be under a fucking lid and we can just leave it to the Provinces.
To many fucking pots in this kitchen, all cooking various explosive chemicals >.>
Step 5 Alt Path: Take a single main Improve Festival. Grab East Hills. Good thing the Offense policy has our warrior/chariot expansion covered.
Second verse same as the first.
Step 6: Switch away from Offense to something else in the mid turn hopefully if the Nomads have been driven off. Otherwise keep at it.
*grumble grumble*...stupid Nomads...*grumble mumble*
Step 7: Main More Boats. Have the Marchers come back yet? Devote other secondaries to recovering from whatever bad shit happened.
Keep going as we go. More boaties will help some. If we can grab a few Mains worth then it becomes much less of a luxury/expensive travel option.
Has something bad happened Y/N? Murphy must have come for his tithe of salt at this point. Four Generations from now? Yeah. Y. Definitely Y.
Step 7 ALT path: Main New Settlement Stonepen + Main New Trails Stonepen.
I already talked about this.
Step 8: Recover more in the Mid turn.
Try to keep a hold of the Marchers.
Don't mix the FooF with the Hexanitrohexaazaisowurtzitane.
Step 9: Grab Main New Settlement Northshore + Main New Trails Stonepen.
We will build fucking ROADS gentlemen and ladies. Are you ready yet Marchers!? Are you ready!?
*Knife hands all in their face*
Step 9 ALT path: Main More Boats. Have the Marchers come back yet? Devote other secondaries to recovering from whatever bad shit happened.
Left blank because of increasing number of uncensorable expletives.
That should cover most of it. *grumble grumble*
In fact I did when I was writing that. Our compound bows are like the composite bow, which were built in 2000 BCE, and we are best guess on our neighbors, in the 5000s BCE ergo 3000 years ahead. E: whoops fucked my date math.
I think it counts as a tech-value. We are serious about our building. We have opinions about it. Much like farming.
*Hugz the wolverine/honey badger*
Fixy the imagy?
This is what usually transpirs in our meetings, today is no exception.
Of course the scope (work) it is not explicitly mentioned and is instead "implied" in the proposal.
No wonder lawyers, accountants, and prjoect managers are jaded as hell.
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Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
@ctulhuslp Convincing evidence that it is worthwhile; unconvincing evidence that "dawdling" by strengthening ties with 2/3 of the powers who can be persuaded to continue not attacking us + gaining opium is less worthwhile/urgent.
NB, @ the person who talked about our nobles being useful: I was referring to my previous statement about selling it to other countries' nobles.
NB, @ the person who talked about our nobles being useful: I was referring to my previous statement about selling it to other countries' nobles.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
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Other nobles(I mean it's the chalcolithic, is the concept of "filthy noble" even a thing) are definitely resource hogs.
*beats on the Noble Hate Drum*
I'm sorry Dwarf Fortress traumatized me about the word "Noble".
- Location
- Austria
I think that they will get stability hits for attacking us while memories of the cure are still alive.
VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
Other nobles(I mean it's the chalcolithic, is the concept of "filthy noble" even a thing) are definitely resource hogs.
*beats on the Noble Hate Drum*
I'm sorry Dwarf Fortress traumatized me about the word "Noble".
I understand your pain completely, lost too many good craftsman to stupid mandates.
On the other hand, nobles* does have the resources to fund things for entertainment or curiosity.
So the likes of literature and sophisticated strange contraptions will appear sooner if nobles exist.
They are net positive group and will remain that way for a very long time.
*"Wealth and powerful people with a lot free time"
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- Location
- Austria
Eh, we can just shift policy to 'Progress', which includes 'Art Patronage', to do the same. Or do Art Patronage manually a couple of times.
@Academia Nut , when should we expect an update?
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
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This is certainly true. Especially for our Hereditary and Theocratic neighbors.
But I'm not certain it fully applies to the Ymaryn. Mostly because if you look at our advances in certain fields we are ridiculously(looking at you cholera) far ahead of our neighbors.
Plus if we need strange new ideas we have CA to feed the weirdness
About four hours going by this.
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
~ I don't want to rely on that, and figure that if we trade w/ them now it will extend any protection, if it exists.I think that they will get stability hits for attacking us while memories of the cure are still alive.
I'd rather do Trade, it increases international ties + art, which people argue will give us more internal coherency. It thus benefits the Martial people *cough* Sivantic *cough* through moderate protection against being attacked and the "Absorb March" people through, well, a consolidation of our internal culture, basically.
Obviously Progress is important and what I want us to switch to later. My ideal lineup is something like: Megaproject Support 'til Dam is finished -> Expansion 'til we have 3 Provinces -> Trade + Trails 'til the March is absorbed -> Progress 'til 2 turns after PttS is built.
I'll be willing to do the Mine if we send a trade mission to the SHP (cus I wanna know wtf their values r and get them to stop raiding us) during the same turn we make Southshore. I realize this sacrifices some Econ (aka literally 1) but like... I want that opium and also to create actual ties with the SHP. This has the benefit of us favoring neither the TH nor the HK.
So it would look like:
[Main] Southshore
[Secondary] Copper Mine
[Secondary] TM - SHP
[Kick] Garden
Regrettably sacrifices the Symphony bonus tho...
Alternate choice is:
[Main] The Garden
[Main] Southshore
[Kick] The Garden
[Main] The Dam
[Secondary] Copper Mine
[Secondary] TM - SHP
But this regrettably has the bonus from the copper mine occur the turn after The Dam starts, when having expanded copper tools would be extremely useful for creating the dam. So it's comparatively inadvisable.
Edit: @Academia Nut wow... CA... sick burn
Edit 2: Also, I realize I did an about face in the middle of this post but whatever.
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BungieONI
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Pretty sure that the SHP have actually stopped raiding us. That was a symptom of them stressing out over their internal politics.
I put up a feasible path we can take to get metal and integrate the March. If you so wish I can input in the trade idea, remember we are gonna have to deal with Nomads soon, and maybe we can find a compromise that makes every one happy.
The only thing I remember even implying we could do this is referring to the whole super kick war scenario, where AN was talking about a hypothetical situation that basically became surmized as 'do the thing' in terms of a button. I'm not sure how seriously I take it as a result.
I'd need actual, definitive confirmation before I jumped on said plan, especially since we're talking about getting rid of our Symphony Bonus to do it.
Would have been closer to 5 hours from then, probably about 4 and a half from now. I'd guess 4 and a half to 5 at the moment, based on prior experience.
I'm down for getting copper tools immediately after getting Southshore. I view the province as a closing window and don't want to miss out on the opportunity. We have a lot of stuff to do and honestly I'm going to be rather surprised if people don't start opening up trade relations with us after this. I'd much prefer that we did our trade mission with Highland Kingdom, but I'm not about to go out of my way to do it.
Also, we're long overdue on the ability to use copper tools.
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Current top priorities: Expansion, Metal.
Next turn is stuck on Gardens and something else, the turn after that we can switch to Policy:Expansion and have 3 actions to work on metal and Enforce Law. Probably spend this turn's "something else" on expansion, but we could go for metal instead.
Current actions/turn count:
4: manual actions, 2 must be combined
3: province actions
1: The Law. Can potentially go to 2, more likely if we get to 4 province actions
1: +1 diplomacy/turn via salterns (worth ~1 action)
*3: +3 econ/turn via Baby Boom, likely ending soon
sum: 9, 12 while BB lasts.
In other words: holy cow our action count has gone way up ever since we got provinces.
Next turn is stuck on Gardens and something else, the turn after that we can switch to Policy:Expansion and have 3 actions to work on metal and Enforce Law. Probably spend this turn's "something else" on expansion, but we could go for metal instead.
Current actions/turn count:
4: manual actions, 2 must be combined
3: province actions
1: The Law. Can potentially go to 2, more likely if we get to 4 province actions
1: +1 diplomacy/turn via salterns (worth ~1 action)
*3: +3 econ/turn via Baby Boom, likely ending soon
sum: 9, 12 while BB lasts.
In other words: holy cow our action count has gone way up ever since we got provinces.
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
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- ꙮ
*rubs headache* why are you getting 2 copper mines?
The nomads are only an issue if we make BR or integrate the March, though arguably even if we integrate the March it will still be a March, just an integrated one and thus not a Peripheral State.
Doing a secondary copper mine rather than a main one loses no benefits other than receiving the income a turn later. Presumably, mining it more slowly will also let our miners take a steadier and thus safer path which allows them to gain more experience.
By "trade idea" do you mean doing Change Policy: Trade? Can you also put doing a Megaproject: The Damn Dam in?
Edit: @notgreat I support getting new provinces but would far rather do it manually while completing The Dam, the last low-turn-cost megaproject. It costs us nothing, imo, other than needing to wait another turn to do BR. We don't even lose a province action because we'd just be doing EH the same turn The Dam starts.
Plus, feasibly, if we start the Dam and kick it at that same turn (in order to not waste the stability The Dam would provide at its end) we could finish it in a single turn and then get a midturn choice to change from Megaproject Support to Expansion.
1 (us) + 2 (provinces) + 1 (kicker) = 4, the minimum listed req. for the Dam.
Note that this is not counting new secondary action if we make the 2nd new province this turn. I chose to not count the new secondary action because we can't know if it will be received the same turn the province is established or not. (I doubt it) If it can be, we get 2 Main actions by provinces naturally and thus one of them is kicked by The Law, resulting in 3 main actions by the provinces.
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BungieONI
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That is totes true. Really ridiculous and we should be careful to confirm.The only thing I remember even implying we could do this is referring to the whole super kick war scenario, where AN was talking about a hypothetical situation that basically became surmized as 'do the thing' in terms of a button. I'm not sure how seriously I take it as a result.
I'd need actual, definitive confirmation before I jumped on said plan, especially since we're talking about getting rid of our Symphony Bonus to do it.
Even without the kick and a minimum of one action from mid turn, that leaves 2 Main Province actions + One Midturn. 3 actions is the minimum needed to do it, and if we leave ourselves in Mega support(which I feel we can without much risk) then it's done by step 3.
We can grab Southshore, resolve that time crunch, and then grab Copper Mine. Which would mean that at least by step 3 we have copper tools, rapidly increasing the likely hood that it will be done even without kicks.
BungieONI
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*rubs Umi's head* There there Umi-san.
I have a main path and an alternate path. Only one mine will be grabbed no worries.
The Nomads are an issue because they get in the way of Marcher integration narratively speaking. They are only a threat if we grab BR this is true. But if we give no support to the Marchers then they will develop animosity. And if we give it freely without them asking that gains us gradtitude. Trade idea is Change Policy: Trade Yep.
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- Location
- Austria
If Trade gave protection against the attacks, we would not be presented with the ultimatums when two guys who we were trading with started fighting each other. Being strong and lacking conflicts of interest works better.
Like, HK would totally started war, trade or no, if we did not scare them away with the talking rocks.
What's wrong with two copper mines? Well, besides us not having another mining spot, but we probably can upgrade the existing one.
Like, copper will enhance every other action; it is writing and sailing-tier impactful. Even copper, which is much inferior to bronze or iron. The sooner we get it, the better off we are; especially since we've declared it specialist work, making it slower than if we were willing to use slaves.
BungieONI
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Just to make it crystal clear to everyone reading my plan there are two paths:
One is a path where we are less focused on the Garden and leave it to the background.
The ALT path is where we focus on the Garden and get it done for certain next turn.
In either case only one mine will be grabbed.