Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
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- naruto rational rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard open voting
I think that is... very unlikely. Why would he want to share the Rift with Akatsuki and bank on the possibility they don't end up killing him afterwards? He thinks they are babbling buffoons (the feeling is mutual) and its not actually an Akatsuki pair guarding the Rift, just some Rain Jounin whom he can deal with anytime he wants (in fact, he can kill an Akatsuki pair just fine, especially with his Jounin helpers). Collaborating with them doesn't even quicken the project from his perspective - and he does not want to reveal Runecrafting to them either, so he has nothing to gain by defecting to Akatsuki - as I see it, doing so would only constrain him without providing any benefits in return - and if Nagato is ever back then he has to fear for his life which he otherwise doesn't. It would also mean abandoning the Basement and other such inconveniences.
See.. I don't think its rule lawyering. If Akatsuki's expectations were for us to never *talk* about the Rift to anyone then they would already have killed us alongside our clanmates and Ami and Naruto and Tsunade to whom we reported our findings - and probably Leaf at large. As a Leaf ninja we are duty bound to report on the Rift to the Hokage and its a safe assumption to them that we already have by the time they interrogated us.
So telling Orochimaru should not pose any more danger than we are already under as long as Hazou is not himself working on developing rift seals and is not planning to do so, in that scenario. What the Snake Sannin does is hardly our fault or responsibility. Its not like we'd be explicitly planning to hinder Akatsuki here - my impression is Hazopilot is ambivalent to them and primarily just wants Akane, Jiraiya etc back while being unwilling to abandon Team Uplift and Clan Gouketsu to go research in Rain. There is a good chance Orochimaru finds out about the Rift even without us telling him - and if he does, he will most likely begin working on Necromancy on his own accord, without our nudging.
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- Washington, USA
Yeah, he's very much a long-term thinker. Occurs to me when Oro said he thought Kakuzu would probably die "in a thousand years" from some overlooked esoteric trick, he probably didn't mean "statistically, five to fifteen centuries," but rather "Battle of the Gods round 2, when the stars next align to make such a ritual possible."
- Location
- Italy
Because Orochimaru is keenly aware of the capabilities of the Akatsuki and how dangerous they are. Why would he start a war against multiple S-rankers(S-rankers he clearly didn't want to fight when they blackmailed Leaf), when he can simply collaborate with them and reap the massive benefits of the rift and it's perfect immortality?
He's not like us, whose objective is break the world in two or die trying, including stuff such as "Kill Jashin" and are as motivated by winning as not playing "Marked For Economics/Boredom"; he doesn't want to die, and he's not particularly interested in courting suicidal bets out of idealism if he can help it.
The only real risk is Nagato deciding to kill him, it depends on his model(far more accurate than us)of Nagato, but considering the Akatsuki employs Hidan and Sasori, i don't think the bet is in our favor. Meanwhile the unknown variable is how much Orochimaru respects Nagato and considering both Pain's clear charisma and the fact that Oro once joined the Akatsuki, there are arguments for both sides.
He does not start a war with Akatsuki by starting his Rift Research. They are not gonna show up in Leaf and intrude upon his Basement, he is too strong for that to ever happen. Why would he choose to cooperate with them when it has no carrot to it and the stick is, at best, flaccid?
He would be actively diminishing the benefits he can reap from the Rift - all while working on it on his own neither reduces the odds of success or poses a danger to his life. Akatsuki are not trying to kill Orochimaru, at least not before Nagato is back. All he needs to do is beat them to the Rift, which he can and would do since he not only knows Runecrafting but also has superior Sealing to Sasori - who is reportedly distracted.
Also, cowardice and amibition are incompatible and its precisely because they are a long term threat to him that he wants them gone. Beating Akatsuki to the Rift research and leveraging Leaf's help to eliminate them afterwards is a prime opportunity. Not to mention he kinda likes his nephew and Hazou has been consistently useful to him besides so he would feel bad about repaying vital intelligence with betrayal - as twisted as his conscience is, it remains part of his ego and he remains driven by it.
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- USA
TIAFO.
Good catch, +1 XP to a PC of your choice.
Hazō thinks Mikijirō probably meant sheer size of chakra reserves, but Leaf's religion intertwines chakra-usage with spiritual purpose, so it's hard to know for certain.
The latter.
HDK, but Noburi thinks her body has very likely already been destructively studied.
Similarly to Hazō developing the Poor Man's Yellow Flash under Kagome, he expects that Haruhisa would probably want Hazō to do some simple projects to prove that he's ready to go off on his own.
Hazō doesn't think explosive tags are the limit for how much explosive oomph can come from a paper seal, but there's not too much additional room to improve them due to diminishing returns. Probably explosive runes are the same, but he can't know for sure until he tries.
CR is a game-mechanical thing. Hazō has no idea about it. However, see next question.
Larger, but not by a ton.
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- USA
Recently, players voted in a number of difficulty checks on runes. As this is a completely new field, we're not going to provide accurate, well-bounded answers on how hard runes are to make in the same way we do with seals. Instead, we're going to treat things at the narrative level until Hazou has substantially more experience in the field. Without any claim about how these results corresponds to numbers (if they do at all), nor any claim about how likely they are to be accurate or inaccurate, the three possibilities for a rune difficulty check are:
- "Hazou thinks this rune is well within his capabilities."
- "Hazou thinks he could maybe do this rune."
- "Hazou thinks this rune is beyond his capabilities."
- Fast Forward Rune — Hazou thinks this rune is well within his capabilities.
- Capacitor Rune — Hazou thinks this rune is well within his capabilities.
- Transformer Rune — Hazou thinks this rune is beyond his capabilities.
- Chakra Font — Hazou thinks this rune is beyond his capabilities.
To clarify - is Hazou evaluating his PS 11 capabilities with the Severe (Eff 27 AB 2) or without it (Eff 36 AB 2), since there is quite a difference there?
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Did Hazou incorporate the information he gained from Orochimaru about nature chakra/human chakra when he did this prep day? The Transformer Rune should really be called a "Filtering Rune" since we want it to filter environmental chakra and not transform it
EDIT: pinging @Velorien @eaglejarl
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@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped
Crossposting from Discord so that it makes it into the QINOA docs.
My primary concern for doing significant timeskips is that the FP mechanics for long term sealing research border on suicidal.
As written, if you spend 3 months in a single update researching a difficult seal you have relatively few rerolls. Say you start with 3 FP and are using 10 day cycles (as Hazou does), over 90 days you have 9 cycles total, 18 total rolls accounting for both Callig and Sealing (assuming no multithreading (which is a bad assumption))
This means that you need to roll well enough to avoid failure 18 times with only 3 rerolls, a result worse than a -3 is approximately ~20% likely. That's just not enough FP.
Wheras if you take it as 10 day cycles in individual action plans, you can refresh FP every single one, and get 12 FP in the same time period.
This means that the current FP mechanics heavily incentivize us not to take timeskips, because Sealing Research is much more dangerous without sufficient FP.
Crossposting from Discord so that it makes it into the QINOA docs.
My primary concern for doing significant timeskips is that the FP mechanics for long term sealing research border on suicidal.
As written, if you spend 3 months in a single update researching a difficult seal you have relatively few rerolls. Say you start with 3 FP and are using 10 day cycles (as Hazou does), over 90 days you have 9 cycles total, 18 total rolls accounting for both Callig and Sealing (assuming no multithreading (which is a bad assumption))
This means that you need to roll well enough to avoid failure 18 times with only 3 rerolls, a result worse than a -3 is approximately ~20% likely. That's just not enough FP.
Wheras if you take it as 10 day cycles in individual action plans, you can refresh FP every single one, and get 12 FP in the same time period.
This means that the current FP mechanics heavily incentivize us not to take timeskips, because Sealing Research is much more dangerous without sufficient FP.
Can a timeskipping plan not include buying X amount of FP while doing research (or more likely, specify burning XP to fill it to full capacity whenever it drops below)? I imagine a long timeskip like that would have include a Training Plan for the XP gained over that period as three months is likely ~1000 XP which is quite the massive pile to be sitting on.
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Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
Awesome.
We should never think about these within earshot of Oro lol. He can get his own ideas.
I would rather lose the Riftwar than lose the setting to some 2xFOOM Deva Path empowered 2000 year-old Orochimaru Entity
- Location
- United States
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Personally I think we probably aren't gonna get anywhere without direct advice from the Toad Sages themselves
Zampano
🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈
- Location
- Simping for DSB
i disagree! I think we could very easily cause one of the sealing failures of all time, and then if we survive that then we could invent our own separate version of Sage Mode called "Sadge Mode".
We are at kind of an interesting point where Hazo has no choice but to grasp at power, while the Toad Sages are still mostly ambivalent about him. They have alluded to various stunt prereqs (like how they made Jiraya meet a certain physical stamina threshold, iirc) but they haven't even revealed that the secret exists yet. Of course, Hazo is too smart to waste time doing pushups so a seal or runic workaround to the filtering process makes a lot of sense to me. So that puts us on a separate development track from what the Sages would expect us to follow during an apprenticeship, for example.
If they won't cough up the Lore, we can just infuse some Lore of our own.
I mean, we would get to an early grave and that is somewhere...
Still, Runes that gather natural chakra might help master Sage Mode by letting us focus entirely on one part of the process at a time.
Rather than drawing in ambient nature chakra directly into our body and trying to circulate it with our own without prior experience yolo-style, we could use Runes to create biphase chakra and indirectly study its behaviour with Earthshaping as it moves around the substrate channels, until we feel safe enough to acclimate our bodies to it by drawing it out of the Rune in miniscule amounts and then amounts enough to use techniques with. Finally, once we master that process, we could remove the reliance on the runic crutch and learn to do everything by ourselves.
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- Washington, USA
Approaching them with a close-enough-to-be-dangerous prototype, or even just credible concept sketch, already in hand could be an excellent way to convince them of urgent need to share that advice.
@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped
Since we have notes for these seals, can we have a difficulty estimate?
Oh nice, +1 to Hazo please!
Cant she get enough XP to get CoTWG to a level she can use, first? Sure it would cost some XP waste but XP wont help you if you are dead...
But I guess thats too much to ask XP wise? But without it she is not going to beat nor escape a Jounin. Maybe she can get away with levelling Athl 53 -> 59 or at least securing a proper Jounin Pangolin summon first? It doesnt cost XP and it would give her something to burn CP on.
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- United States
Oh, we just need Level 20?
Thought it needed Lvl 50 to be worth using but am probably misremembering.
Edit : Is one +9 to a roll per round really worth the Supplemental and 105 XP at CoTWG 20? At Level 50 it would be +18 twice per round plus 4 Range and Weapon Rating (Wind) and ability to use up one use for 1 Zone of free action, out of turn movement, so at that point its really good.
I suppose it would still let her hit hard enough where she currently can't.
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- United States
Did you seriously just ask if spending 105 XP was not worth getting a +3•AB to Kei's RW attack for a single supplemental on Round 1?
It gets better as you keep leveling it and start pumping up the WR and Range and tags used for dodging or movement, but it's still amazing at level 20.
It gets better as you keep leveling it and start pumping up the WR and Range and tags used for dodging or movement, but it's still amazing at level 20.
Well, its CoTWG AB no? Not RW AB. So at 20 its just AB 3 which is +9 which while good is..
Well, she doesnt have better options, you are right. Its just that the level scaling is exponential..
Lv 20: +9 once per round, Range & Weapons : 2
Lv 50 : +18 twice per round, Range & Weapons : 4
Lv 80 : +27 thrice per round, Range & Weapons : 5
(All can burn one use to move 1 Zone anytime)
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