With the revelation about scorch squads and the reasons behind ninja wars, the emergence of Hidden Mountain will probably be what sparks the next ninja war (Fire is now more powerful for being allied with Tea, who suddenly has a ninja village - a coalition forms against them and tries to wipe Hillbilly Mountain off the map)

Honestly I can see it being irresponsible of us to withhold that info from Jiraiya.

E: Alternatively, Jiraiya might already have known about Hidden Mountain, and sending us there to see if we could hack it was his test of whether we were decent assets. I doubt it, but wouldn't be surprised if he wasn't aware of them by now, given that he knows our mission was a success and might have sent more assets to investigate.
 
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The thing with Jiriaya is such a mess.

We killed Leaf nin, started planning to take over the world (which he specifically told us not to do), and caused an international incident (and are about to both defile the bodies of those Leaf nin we killed and then kill yet more Leaf nin in the process).

I'm sure that if we got a chance to stop screwing things up and start actually fixing things before we went to him, then the reunion would go better for us, but I'm not quite sure where we could start, and I'm pretty sure we don't even have time.
 
The thing with Jiriaya is such a mess.

We killed Leaf nin, started planning to take over the world (which he specifically told us not to do), and caused an international incident (and are about to both defile the bodies of those Leaf nin we killed and then kill yet more Leaf nin in the process).

I'm sure that if we got a chance to stop screwing things up and start actually fixing things before we went to him, then the reunion would go better for us, but I'm not quite sure where we could start, and I'm pretty sure we don't even have time.
imb4 Jiraiya shows up right after we escape, goes "wtfman", then kills us.
 
Why doesn't Mari always create a clone before using Genjutsu? In that previous Hot Springs melee for example, it could have helped out with protecting her or combat or done /something/ useful
 
A few comments on the update (which is still being written):

First, I previously wrote PMYF in brief for the megalodon incident, but I wasn't really thinking about it at the time — it was a detail, not an essential element. This time around it was important, so I actually put some effort in. I promptly realized that there's some issues with PMYF that I hadn't appreciated before.

*) Substitution (aka kawarimi) has a range of (Level)x10 meters. Everyone in the group has a Substitution of at least 8, so that's a maximum range of 80 meters. In practice you can't PMYF that far because you need to swap with the target while it's still in your range and you're not going to be able to hit exactly the moment that it reaches 80 meters.

*) There's a couple of ways to use PMYF:

First, you can throw it and wait for the target to hit the ground and stop, which is a good way to ensure that there's a valid kawarimi target where you need it. It also works well in that you're not moving when you switch.

Second, you can swap with the target while it's still in the air, which is what's been promoted as the normal mode of operation. Problem: you can only swap with something that you could move to. Ninja can only jump about 3 meters up, so you can't swap with anything more than 3m in the air. There's also some timing issues: you need to have the seal dispense its log in the fraction of a second that it's still <3m in the air, then swap with the target before it crosses out of that range. Even if we handwave the issue, you will still find yourself 3m in the air and falling (or possibly moving up a bit more and THEN falling). Either way, you're moving fast and the ground is close. You can prevent yourself from going splat in one of two ways: turn into a blanket just before impact (I don't remember who suggested this, but it's a great idea), or arrange to have a clone on the ground that will kawarimi with you so that you arrive with zero velocity relative to the earth. The Transformation (henge) is fast but not instantaneous, so there's another timing issue there. Having clones in place requires that someone else (probably either Inoue or Noburi) has gone first, and then needs the clones to have perfect timing.

I thought about how I would handle the "can you save yourself before going splat?", and every method I thought of was bad for someone. My first thought was to assume that part of a person's Transformation skill represents how fast they can perform the jutsu. I could therefore use their Transformation skill as a check against some number of dice to represent their falling speed. That was (a) complicated because falling speed is different at different points and (b) Akane has a Transformation of 1, so she would end up injured or dead. Given that the characters have practiced this in the past, they would have figured out that these issues exist, so I decided I would not do something that would definitely kill Best Apprentice.

Even if you did manage to get all the above-mentioned timing checks correct, you're in a dense forest, meaning that the distance you can throw a kunai is sharply limited. Really what you'd like to do is throw it up and out from a clearing somewhere — probably with Inoue's Wind Wall to accelerate the throw — but then the initial timing check gets even harder because you have a sharply limited range of vision. (Alternatively, you could throw one straight up, switch with it, then throw another one horizontally and switch with that. You need to do this in the 3-4 seconds before you hit the ground.)

On top of that, when you start descending you're going to land on the crowns of the trees. Maybe you can henge into a blanket to slow down, then pop back to being yourself in time to tree-walk your way to the ground — except you're going to be standing on thin branches that cannot support your weight, so you're going to fall and have to catch yourself on the way down, with no certainty that you'll actually go past a branch that you can grab that is sturdy enough to support you.

Given all these problems, I am choosing to go with the "throw, wait for target to stop, switch" solution. This sharply curtailed the distance you could move, but at least it meant that no one died.


The PMYF trick is really cool, and I'm sure the hivemind can sort out the above issues. I look forward to seeing what you come up with. If there are obvious solutions that you find quickly I'll try to work them into the update, but if I've gone too far then they'll have to wait for next time.
 
Why doesn't Mari always create a clone before using Genjutsu? In that previous Hot Springs melee for example, it could have helped out with protecting her or combat or done /something/ useful
Lack of room, threat of caltrops popping said clones, worry that it'll get noticed and prompt combat (she was talking before everything went to hell), lack of time to make the clone...
 
(Triple post, I know, mea culpa)

you can only swap with something that you could move to. Ninja can only jump about 3 meters
Actually, given the heavily forested terrain, couldn't we "move to" things much higher than normal? Like, 3m above the tallest tree/branch that would support us? Or does wall/tree walking not count in the movement range? (I seem to recall @Velorien indicating otherwise but may be misremembering)
 
A few comments on the update (which is still being written):

First, I previously wrote PMYF in brief for the megalodon incident, but I wasn't really thinking about it at the time — it was a detail, not an essential element. This time around it was important, so I actually put some effort in. I promptly realized that there's some issues with PMYF that I hadn't appreciated before.

*) Substitution (aka kawarimi) has a range of (Level)x10 meters. Everyone in the group has a Substitution of at least 8, so that's a maximum range of 80 meters. In practice you can't PMYF that far because you need to swap with the target while it's still in your range and you're not going to be able to hit exactly the moment that it reaches 80 meters.

*) There's a couple of ways to use PMYF:

First, you can throw it and wait for the target to hit the ground and stop, which is a good way to ensure that there's a valid kawarimi target where you need it. It also works well in that you're not moving when you switch.

Second, you can swap with the target while it's still in the air, which is what's been promoted as the normal mode of operation. Problem: you can only swap with something that you could move to. Ninja can only jump about 3 meters up, so you can't swap with anything more than 3m in the air. There's also some timing issues: you need to have the seal dispense its log in the fraction of a second that it's still <3m in the air, then swap with the target before it crosses out of that range. Even if we handwave the issue, you will still find yourself 3m in the air and falling (or possibly moving up a bit more and THEN falling). Either way, you're moving fast and the ground is close. You can prevent yourself from going splat in one of two ways: turn into a blanket just before impact (I don't remember who suggested this, but it's a great idea), or arrange to have a clone on the ground that will kawarimi with you so that you arrive with zero velocity relative to the earth. The Transformation (henge) is fast but not instantaneous, so there's another timing issue there. Having clones in place requires that someone else (probably either Inoue or Noburi) has gone first, and then needs the clones to have perfect timing.

I thought about how I would handle the "can you save yourself before going splat?", and every method I thought of was bad for someone. My first thought was to assume that part of a person's Transformation skill represents how fast they can perform the jutsu. I could therefore use their Transformation skill as a check against some number of dice to represent their falling speed. That was (a) complicated because falling speed is different at different points and (b) Akane has a Transformation of 1, so she would end up injured or dead. Given that the characters have practiced this in the past, they would have figured out that these issues exist, so I decided I would not do something that would definitely kill Best Apprentice.

Even if you did manage to get all the above-mentioned timing checks correct, you're in a dense forest, meaning that the distance you can throw a kunai is sharply limited. Really what you'd like to do is throw it up and out from a clearing somewhere — probably with Inoue's Wind Wall to accelerate the throw — but then the initial timing check gets even harder because you have a sharply limited range of vision. (Alternatively, you could throw one straight up, switch with it, then throw another one horizontally and switch with that. You need to do this in the 3-4 seconds before you hit the ground.)

On top of that, when you start descending you're going to land on the crowns of the trees. Maybe you can henge into a blanket to slow down, then pop back to being yourself in time to tree-walk your way to the ground — except you're going to be standing on thin branches that cannot support your weight, so you're going to fall and have to catch yourself on the way down, with no certainty that you'll actually go past a branch that you can grab that is sturdy enough to support you.

Given all these problems, I am choosing to go with the "throw, wait for target to stop, switch" solution. This sharply curtailed the distance you could move, but at least it meant that no one died.


The PMYF trick is really cool, and I'm sure the hivemind can sort out the above issues. I look forward to seeing what you come up with. If there are obvious solutions that you find quickly I'll try to work them into the update, but if I've gone too far then they'll have to wait for next time.
How about the alternate use of making the enemy think they only have to dodge a kunai but suddenly have a much larger projectile to dodge? Could that give a bonus to weapons rolls?
 
Actually, given the heavily forested terrain, couldn't we "move to" things much higher than normal? Like, 3m above the tallest tree/branch that would support us? Or does wall/tree walking not count in the movement range? (I seem to recall @Velorien indicating otherwise but may be misremembering)

Yes, you could, but that doesn't solve any of the timing-related issues.
 
Wouldn't it be easier to just blow them up?
You're probably right in this case, since we're going to be setting off plenty of explosions anyway. If we live to fight again, it would be useful to have for more stealthy situations.

E: also useful if your allies are too close to the target.
 
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Urgh. One more problem with PMYF: it's nighttime in a forest. There isn't enough light to see something 80m away. Argh. Okay, PMYF is axed.

EDIT: No, wait, there's a way to get at least a little benefit out of it. Still, y'all need to do some more thinking on this.
 
We should just use PMYF to place substitution targets on the ground in a place that is really unlikely to have such target otherwise, then substitute at our leisure.

Remember, people, the goal of PMYF here is not gaining lots of speed, it's breaking our trail.

Also, setting substitution targets on fire should solve the visibility issue nicely.
 
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I guess we could see at near range.

So...

  1. Set PMYF timer to 0.5-1.0s.
  2. Throw so that log appears immediately behind close-ish enemy.
  3. Sub Immediately.
  4. Flank enemy.
  5. Get bonuses from flanking enemy.
  6. Kill enemy.
EDIT: Although I suppose that only works for Kei (since it's hard to punch when you're flying away from the target), and she'd have to henge into a blanket immediately after her second throw... Hmm...
 
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@eaglejarl @Velorien Sorry if this was already asked:

We can't kawarimi if we are mid-air since since we can't fly, but what if before doing a kawarimi we open up a storage scroll with a big rock in it that we could theoretically use to jump towards ground?

EDIT: Now that I think about it, why is the mid-air kawarimi even impossible? Gravity will be pulling us towards ground anyway, and if gravity doesn't impact kawarimi calculation, why is our jumping height limited to three meters?

EDIT 2: What about if we can reach the ground with a grapnel? Or if we already have grapnel hooked to the ground or some other fixed structure?
 
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Elaborating on my idea:
  1. Find high ground (climb a high tree, run up the hill, whatever works);
  2. Choose suitable substitution location in range (water surface would work nicely. Otherwise, clearing works in a pinch);
  3. Prepare the extraction point (drop bodies , sprinkle with explosives, summon Pandaa);
  4. Unseal one substitution target and set it on fire, then reseal;
  5. Throw PMYF kunai at designated location;
  6. Leisurely substitute with targets, the target that is on fire should be used last;
  7. Pandaa activates explosives and desummons;
  8. Our trail is broken, let's quietly walk away.
Thoughts?
 
Can we kawarimi while transformed? If so we can kawarimi over while already in blanket form (also once we can transform into birds we could theoretically lose the height limit since we can now fly)?
 
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