I think we should join Akatsuki, largely because "Essie Quest" sounds more exciting than "Clan Head Quest."
I don't have an effortpost to back up this position, or to resolve the various complications that defecting (again) might cause. But I'm posting now to avert a dogpile for the "reject" option.
I can be swayed by strategies that lead towards Sanin Apprenticeships and away from either Clan Head or political responsibilities.
If we all agreed to apprentice ourselves to Orochimaru, I would not object to that instead of the Akatsuki. But I don't think we're willing to commit to that.
Speaking as someone who prefers to reject Akatsuki, I'm going to point out that the "Goketsu will get fucked because Hazou joined Akatsuki" may not happen. While that's probably true just from us leaving, and will be true once we establish trust/get to talk to our family again, I'm going to point out that Itachi can very easily fake our deaths and make it seem we died in an unrelated incident. As long as we are truly sequestered it won't be hard for Leaf to think we died in truth.
We're really backed against the wall here. Joining the Akatsuki would have political and interpersonal consequences to the people we care for, while also flirting with death in the company of S-classes, while apprenticing with Orochimaru still means we'll be flirting with death in the company of an S-class who's repeatedly mentioned he wants to vivisect us.
To be fair, he's made it a priority to capture a non-Hazou Kurosawa ninja to experiment on. Hazou's too important to the Dragonwar to lose on his operating table, so Orochimaru sought other options.
Do you think it would be suicidal to calmly tell Itachi the reasons why joining Akatsuki would be a Very Bad Move both in general and game theoretically? Like, maybe outline these points:
Hazou will be an assistant, when he's very likely as good as or better than Sasori at sealing
Hazou is integral to dragonwar, and going to Akatsuki would be bad for that goal
Hazou would be a traitor, again, which is bad for his reputation in both Akatsuki and Leaf and EN in general
Hazou would fuck over the Goketsu clan by doing this
Hazou would be unable to work on Uplift while doing this
Itachi can easily kidnap Hazou and enslave him as a sealmaster against his will, but is that really a good move when Hazou is central to so many plots? And is that even effective, if Hazou is unable to put the entirety of the ball-of-snakes that is his brain into necromancy?
Do you think it would be suicidal to calmly tell Itachi the reasons why joining Akatsuki would be a Very Bad Move both in general and game theoretically?
Clarification: does Hazo have a sense for whether Itachi is in effect asking us to abandon Leaf and join the Akatsuki? Because I'm not sure if it's that or if it's more them borrowing us from Leaf for a while.
We have a firm policy, EJ. We do not show the players the QM chat logs. I can't believe you're giving away what really happens when we're "writing updates", just like that. What next, are you going to show them where we get our "worldbuilding" from and how we come up with "new mechanics"?
Clarification: does Hazo have a sense for whether Itachi is in effect asking us to abandon Leaf and join the Akatsuki? Because I'm not sure if it's that or if it's more them borrowing us from Leaf for a while.
"Or you can come to Rain and speak with Sasori. If he accepts you as his assistant, together you will reopen the rift that much faster. Once we rescue Nagato and usher in a true era of peace, his power and wisdom will create a world where your dreams and ours are within easy reach. Dedicating yourself to that rescue is your best way to earn his trust and ours. Of course, until that trust is earned, until Nagato is restored to us, communication with your fellows in Leaf will be out of the question.
I've mentioned this as a possibility, but I feel like no one else is considering it: in a few weeks, Leaf will have a new Hokage, very likely Naruto. Naruto seems persuadable by Ami, and also generally sensible enough to recognize a good argument, that he might be willing to let us cooperate with Akatsuki on dragonwar and/or necromancy with the aim of securing some influence for Leaf in the new world order.
In my view, joining Akatsuki with the Hokage's permission and an Ami-optimized plan to get the most out of our aid to them seems like plausibly a good idea. Jumping into their arms with no assurances as to our safety and agency, as well as committing treason, seems like a bad idea. And even if you think joining Akatsuki right now is obviously worth doing, it's worth evaluating the probability that we can also do it in a few weeks on much much better terms.
My immediate instinct is that I want to join Akatsuki because it seems likely to be a better force-multiplier, on net, that lets us steer away from the Global Bad Ends (Dragons, the collapse of the web of reality, the generalized decline of humanity, etc). And, frankly, I don't care about Leaf, or even about Kei and Noburi and Kagome and Mari, as much as I care about the absurd pile of x-risk laying around, and the theoretical Actual Good End of fully realized necromancy.
That said, the more I think about it, the less likely it feels for Akatsuki to actually be that lever. We just don't know enough about Pain's plans, which could easily be a hollow ending. We don't know how Sasori would treat us as a sealmaster, how the Akatsuki/Pain would feel about necromancy of our loved ones, how much they would assist with DRAGONWAR. If we somehow knew that we could work with them, I'd argue for it strongly. But as is, we're being asked to leave our home and loved ones - the very same home Itachi himself seems to still clearly be attached to - with no knowledge, no guarantees. I don't think we can do that.
So my real goal is more like "Use this as an opportunity to learn about Akatsuki and keep open channels to work with them in the future". Between this interaction, Ami, the rift being acknowledged by both sides, I don't see why we can't wait. Wait for Naruto to be elected, figure out what Oro is up to, etc, and then reach out - with help from our various genius allies - to still use that lever.
So then the question is, would Itachi respect that we need some clarity before leaving Leaf like he did, or would he just be Essie Irritated again and shut this door forever?
Decline, and spend the next six to nine months single-mindedly pursuing the destruction of Akatsuki with Leaf's full assistance.
Accept. Whether we then stay loyal or sabotage them is up in the air.
Decline, and fail to spend the next six to nine months single-mindedly pursuing the destruction of Akatsuki with Leaf's full assistance.
I would much prefer (1) to (2), and much prefer (2) to (3).
The problem is, I expect that voting "decline" just leads to (3) by default. We pretty much never single-mindedly pursue objectives for a period of more than two updates, unless literally forced to by the narrative. (The way we would be forced to if surrounded by Akatsuki.)
So I would need to somehow be assured that it won't happen on the Decline branch, for me to vote for that. Such as the plan having two scenes, one in which we address Itachi, and then one in which we immediately commit hard to a prolonged anti-Akatsuki campaign by e. g. directly going to Tsunade and looping her in. (I'd accept more vague evidence though, such as this being the prevailing thread sentiment.)
Naruto seems persuadable by Ami, and also generally sensible enough to recognize a good argument, that he might be willing to let us cooperate with Akatsuki on dragonwar and/or necromancy with the aim of securing some influence for Leaf in the new world order.
Doesn't Naruto basically hate the entire Akatsuki, especially Itachi, since they kidnapped him? And killed Jiraiya and Hiruzen? Naruto as Hokage would probably veto any idea of non-forced cooperation with the Akatsuki, and the only way we'd be able to pull this off is sell it to Tsunade, and be unreachable when Naruto holds power. And don't forget Tsunade is meant to be an interim Hokage in the first place, so she might pass any huge changes such as a clan head basically interning at the Akatsuki to the next Hokage.
Guys, legit the bounty would be a good way to start the discussion. Here it is in a spoiler for reference.
Remember that the Akatsuki are basically the only other people in setting who cared at all that there's a portal to the afterlife, right there. Right there. There's potential for collaboration.
"Okay I want to accept but the thing is, Sasori is going to be my assistant. I'm a-okay telling him that in person, if you want to see my personal brand of insanity pointed at someone else. Also, Jiraiya and Pain walk out of the portal hand in hand. I truly believe that's the only way to build a stable future.
Logic could sway me on that point, if you care to present it"
The key is absolute confidence and honesty, keep the discussion exactly where we want it. He's already a little off from base from dealing with Sasuke, but hopefully in a 'tolerating-punk-spec-jounins' way.
We accept his premise. Give him no reason to strike out, just an argument that he most definitely was not expecting.
After Itachi's rather convincing rejoinder (lets be real), negotiate down to a pact of neutrality for personal projects - finding Pain, Jiraiya. Whoever is found first gets evac'd first, all efforts turn to the other afterwards. Complete combination of efforts for necromancy.
"This is so much more efficient! Instead of worrying about fighting you and the Dragons off I can finally work on that damn portal.
One more thing you're not gonna like though, I want to clear this with my Hokage. I've worked damn hard to build a home here, Itachi. I will come back to it.
Additionally, we're going to need to talk with her about the Dragons threat, anyways. You both need to get caught up on a lot."
Hazou is capable of being (er, far more persuasive than I've written him), but the requirement for it is always *taking the risk*. This is a social read. This is hewing back to our roots of completely ignoring our stats and modelling the characters as best as we can.
I think itachi is open to a Hazou moment here. He's kinda askin' for one isn't he? This is what Hazou's character is. Going all in on trust. We trusted Kei, we trusted Mari, and Noburi. Hazou brought Kagome into the family by being kind and caring with death hanging over him. We trusted Mari over the Heartbreaker, and Ami over reason. Ami brought world peace, Mari is bringing fricken roads! Roads tall enough to turn the wilderness into a zoo for ninja to slowly cleanse! All we need to do is buy them time, and they'll already make things better. We trusted Jiraiya even after some fuckups on both sides, and we became his family. He got us into a clan in Leaf! We trusted Yuno, and she traveled across the EN looking for us :<
Let's take a chance, and trust Itachi. Even knowing he probably did some fucked up stuff we'll get mad at later, lets trust him and give him a chance to fix it. Lets trust that Tsunade will play ball. That's a big ask, but we need it for the world to not go to shit. If Itachi actually wants to be our ally, he needs to want that too.
The point is, I think there's an opening here. Itachi has seen glimmers of this Hazou, but it seems faked and forced because Hazou hasn't committed. What are the chances that Itachi bothered to roll Hazou's empathy and learn his Aspects? Seeing forged in fire, especially in action, will give him what he wants. Especially if he just had a heartwrenching talk with his brother, and now we're the rebound brother. Sorry, is that too honest?
This itachi actually seems committed to a future that we actively want. We have problems with him yes, but he's also our win condition.
He probably killed Akane, and the Akatsuki almost definitely killed Asuma to pull Hazou into their project, but death truly does matter less, when we're this close to opening the friggen portal to the afterlife. Just don't kill the people capable of doing it ffs.
Ah, that's the feeling I've been trying to capture.
We need to play to our win condition here. This is how we get everything we want. Yeah, it requires things lining up right, some things outside of our control - but sometimes you only guarantee loss by wasting resources hedging.
We straight up admit that we'd been working on the project independently, and had no idea how to deal with the Akatsuki in our way. We're glad that we don't, but we absolutely will not be a bystander or delegated to an apprentice position. We need to be in a position of authority in the Akatsuki, even if its only on paper. A peer relationship simply would not be respected, example Hidan. He views him as an equal priest to Hazou but would have absolutely no problem killing him.
Anyway, once Sasori et al see how Hazou gets when he has a project in front of him and time to work on it, they'll be glad to have him work on it in exchange for also looking for a peer they don't really like.
Oh also we should probably piss Jiraiya off a lot by guaranteeing he'll join the Akatsuki (at least in spirit, might be a tad too afterlife demented otherwise) until Pain is rescued, should Jiraiya be pulled out first.
Lets lean into nerding out about pulling people out of the fricken afterlife, get equally excited about pulling Pain out. We really do want to talk with the guy! At this point Hazou should also mention that if anyone sees Akane they are of course to prioritize getting her out. The world is worse without her.
Also inb4 we get to Rain and she's just like
"Hi Hazou! Man it took you forever to get here!"
Oh hey also, we should talk with itachi about how neither of them are the main character, it's actually Mori Ami.
TlR
lets manic-pixie-little-brother Itachi. go go go
Join forces, way less wasted labor.
Make four demands
1. Get a mission from Tsunade, so this isn't treason
2. We get continued input over the project, and input on the actual goal of the project. Pain first/only -> first of Pain or Jiraiya, second of Pain or Jiraiya. After that we can ask our various smart people to help us make a good plan to not kill the world by pulling the wrong people out. Priorities!
3. Hazou's skills and active contributions need to be recognized. An easy shorthand for anyone not regularly interacting with him would be learning that he not just joined the project, but actively started leading it.
4. He calls Hazou otouto-san. We should push for kun and fall back to san. When Hazou makes an ally he doesn't do it by half measures.
Doesn't Naruto basically hate the entire Akatsuki, especially Itachi, since they kidnapped him? And killed Jiraiya and Hiruzen? Naruto as Hokage would probably veto any idea of non-forced cooperation with the Akatsuki
I think that if we and Ami present a strong argument that there is no way to prevent Akatsuki from controlling the rift and achieving necromancy without an unacceptable risk of Leaf's destruction (which I think is probably the case) he'll be pragmatic. Especially if we can resurrect Jiraiya and Hiruzen as part of the deal. I don't think he hates Akatsuki so much that he'd suicidally risk his entire village trying to kill them, which is basically the only option other than cooperating with them to achieve influence or doing absolutely nothing like an idiot.
II don't think he hates Akatsuki so much that he'd suicidally risk his entire village trying to kill them, which is basically the only option other than cooperating with them to achieve influence or doing absolutely nothing like an idiot.
Bad wording there, I meant that he likely wouldn't allow any voluntary assistance to them. He'd tolerate things like their existence for AMITY's (and Leaf's) sake, but wouldn't allow a clan head take a sabbatical to intern with them. Also, I think our mishap with Naruto regarding what we might do if the Hyuga hokage happens might predispose him to reject any proposal we suggest
Not too relevant since basically everyone in power we can ally with sucks. But if we are afraid of leaf harming goketsu because we want to revive pain to make the world better. That just shows how much leaf sucks.
I don't think she would. When she's not deferring to her superiors (and recall hazou is her clan head) she has a moral compass. And there's nothing morally wrong with helping resurrect pain
We want to take our family with us or at least maintain contact. This is non-negotiable.
We need to know what the ritual was they performed and what Pain's goals are, to see if they're compatible with Uplift
Right now we're being asked to join as an assistant: this is not acceptable. We're either an apprentice, meaning we're learning from Sasori's wealth of knowledge and experience, or we are a partner: equal in our workings on the rift
We'd also like to maintain our own secrets and never be asked nor pressured to reveal them.
If we say no...well we have a long road ahead of us and I'm not sure how we win.
i'm worried about itachi's poker face. he leaked to haru our letter. and hidan called him a wet blanket about nagato and fox something. could mitigate if he doesn't say he's kidnapping us, and just physically does it.
if itachi kidnaps us instead of hazou announcing he is joining akatsuki, i'm worried what goketsu and their allies will do to akatsuki to make their lives harder.
random brainstorming ideas on how to mitigate social effects:
we could ask itachi to let ami come help brainstorm how to mitigate the social consequences. ami would have no veto on stopping hazou, i don't think itachi would allow that. she would just be an advisor. although i don't think we could hide that ami went into a secret meeting with hazou and itachi. so it would hurt her reputation. she might find it worth it though, if it gives her the opportunity to advise hazou on how to influence akatsuki/pain more. and prevent leaf from messing up resurrection plans.
edit:
more random brainstorming ideas. itachi announces he is revising his condition. not just dimensional notes, he also requires hazou to help akatsuki.
edit2:
on a long term basis, but not forever. perhaps a few years later will be returned. also acts as a hostage for leaf's good behavior.
edit3:
hazou chosen because he has caused pain and kakuzu deaths with seals already. so akatsuki wishes to watch him.
edit4:
what if in return for hazou going to akatsuki. akatsuki reduces some of the other demands they gave?
edit5:
and not just reduce demands. but they give leaf something. some reassurance that another kage killing won't happen again?
edit6:
also since hazou is the author of those dimensional notes. they want him so that he can explain the notes.
edit7:
actually i'm legitimately worried about how itachi would physically extract hazou from leaf without the kage's permission. leaf ninja pursuing hidan weren't that far behind. itachi has to both carry and protect hazou, making him slowing than hidan. no doubt leaf ninja are watching the building itachi entered with hazou.
edit8:
well hidan was able to take hazou out of leaf for villager/bandit killing. he just had to threaten to kill the hiding anbu a few times.
edit9:
although who knows if there were still some anbu with enough balls and stealth to continue spying
edit10:
more random brainstorming. instead of framing it as part of the amity violation condition. itachi can treat it as a separate deal. itachi negotiate with hokage what akatsuki needs to offer to have access to hazou. he doesn't need to tell her about necromancy.
edit11: if frame as separate deal. maybe easier to have ami join in. either during pre-meeting, or during the negotiation meeting.
R
