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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Shrooms said:
Given that Hazou can now carve into metal with Earthshaping, does Hazou believe he would be able to use Earthshaping as a means to pursue this form of Sealing?
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HDK the prerequisites and limitations of seal carving. He does know that ES can't manipulate more than the very thinnest sheets of metal, so creating even a simple seal out of metal would be incredibly slow, possibly requiring days and tens of thousands of chakra. Additionally, he knows that using ES to remove or add material in the shape of seal components would not actually create pathways to conduct chakra through.
 
Paperclipped said:
HDK the prerequisites and limitations of seal carving. He does know that ES can't manipulate more than the very thinnest sheets of metal, so creating even a simple seal out of metal would be incredibly slow, possibly requiring days and tens of thousands of chakra. Additionally, he knows that using ES to remove or add material in the shape of seal components would not actually create pathways to conduct chakra through.
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This could all end up changing with higher Earthshaping for all that Hazou knows, correct? Or does he feel reasonably certain it will not?
 
Raising Physique high enough for Sage Mode takes forever. Look for Physique buffs. Woeful there has been no search for Penmanship and Sealing boosts. Orochimaru uses diagnostic seals. New doors open with gem trade? Sapphires for rights to unlimited koi breeding?
eaglejarl said:
If Hazō has reference research notes for the seal, or has done at least one day of prep, he will be able to roughly judge the objective difficulty of the seal. We'll try to remember to volunteer the information, but if we don't then feel free to ping us. The answer will be one of the following:
  • "Trivial": TN <= 20s.
  • "Genin-level": TN 10s-40s.
  • "Chūnin-level": TN 30s-60s.
  • "Jōnin-level": TN 50s-80s.
  • "Jiraiya": TN >= 70s.
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Sealing 50 hits TN 38 and below on -12 rolls, for 4 shifts or more per roll. TN 47 at Sealing 59. Could ask Orochimaru for a list of which "trivial" seals on the market are worth learning, for veterancy or the effect, and put an SC on full time research. TN 28s get done in 4 days. To do the same with all "genin-level" need 61 Sealing without SSA and eff Penmanship in 50s. 81 Sealing for "chūnin-level." 17 days to finish TN 68s. 10 days with the no prep, Do it Live stunt - adds AB/3 shifts rounded up.

Loses SC XP, but less with Orochi's curation and nicely offloads to background.
Paperclipped said:
HDK the prerequisites and limitations of seal carving. He does know that ES can't manipulate more than the very thinnest sheets of metal, so creating even a simple seal out of metal would be incredibly slow, possibly requiring days and tens of thousands of chakra. Additionally, he knows that using ES to remove or add material in the shape of seal components would not actually create pathways to conduct chakra through.
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HDK the prerequisites. Maybe carved seals are not carved in metal.

Ink creates pathways to conduct chakra. Try using ink in 3d seals? Pull ink covered threads through 3d 'pipes' to get same effect as paper brushstroke. Magic needed to stop unwanted ink pooling in vertical sections. Is this misguided?
 
Crunbum said:
This could all end up changing with higher Earthshaping for all that Hazou knows, correct? Or does he feel reasonably certain it will not?
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It's possible that higher levels of Earthshaping could grant greater levels of control and speed with metals, or that it could grant the ability to make directional chakra pathways. It's also possible that it does neither.
 
If Earthshaping doesn't unlock 3D Sealing, I won't be too annoyed. We used it to unlock unlimited gems and high quality iron. It's useful in its own right.

But... I'm not sure what else would. Hazou-the-character has Sealing: Yes, and doesn't know. Orochimaru the Sannin tried using bone and got nothing. If ES doesn't unlock 3D Sealing, then what will?
 
Maybe we need more Rapport? If Chakra sometimes has its own will, and ES is a way of "communicating" then maybe we need to "convince" 3D seals to... exist? I dunno
 
Black King said:
ES giving a clear/purified substance to 3D seal with and Hazou learning how to sculpt/carve the actual pathways into said material.
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I'm fairly certain that if that was the path toward it, we would have unlocked the stunt by now, similarly to how we unlocked the stunt for Biosealing without actually having the necessary stats; I did, after all, ask if a stunt would do the trick, as was the case for Biosealing.
 
Cariyaga said:
I'm fairly certain that if that was the path toward it, we would have unlocked the stunt by now, similarly to how we unlocked the stunt for Biosealing without actually having the necessary stats; I did, after all, ask if a stunt would do the trick, as was the case for Biosealing.
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With Biosealing, carving isn't needed, it's just recommended. That might be a difference. Also 3D sealing is brand new. Biosealing is a thing that seems to be somewhat well known, so the stunt is there for the taking, with just a teacher. With 3D sealing, there's no possible teacher.
 
Cariyaga said:
I'm fairly certain that if that was the path toward it, we would have unlocked the stunt by now, similarly to how we unlocked the stunt for Biosealing without actually having the necessary stats; I did, after all, ask if a stunt would do the trick, as was the case for Biosealing.
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Pushing ES yet further be like



Paperclipped said:
Additionally, he knows that using ES to remove or add material in the shape of seal components would not actually create pathways to conduct chakra through.
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Is Hazou just not skilled enough to use ES to imitate the pathways that a knife or carving instrument would make?

Also, how likely does Hazou think it is that the Kurosawa have some carved seal examples for him to look at...
 
RandomOTP said:
If Earthshaping doesn't unlock 3D Sealing, I won't be too annoyed. We used it to unlock unlimited gems and high quality iron. It's useful in its own right.

But... I'm not sure what else would. Hazou-the-character has Sealing: Yes, and doesn't know. Orochimaru the Sannin tried using bone and got nothing. If ES doesn't unlock 3D Sealing, then what will?
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Hindsight, gems and iron were possible with lower ES. Buy high quality gems to glue together. Bigger gems are rarer, so worth more than the cost of buying the smaller gems. Iron, go to a mine with a prospector to point out the high iron content ores. Most times, before things become seamless and automatic they can be done fiddly and annoying.
Paperclipped said:
"Repairing an active seal is impossible," Orochimaru said. "Ultimately, I will deactivate the Great Seal and construct a new seal in its place. That construction requires four components. First, a suitable substrate to create chakra-manipulating mechanisms. Second, adequate theory to design a seal to capture and contain the Dragons. Third, a way to precisely shape the substrate into theoretically prescribed forms. Fourth, adequate chakra control to infuse the resulting blank.
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Best story information to go by.

The stroke is the basic unit of a seal. Take a stroke's cross section, it has a top and bottom and chakra channels with a direction. Same when two strokes intersect but the chakra channels have more chaotic directions. How would this be different in a 3d seal stroke cross section? Instead of top and bottom, there is inside and outside. Chakra channels can point in three dimensions. Maybe can be simplified with polar coordinates? We should already have an understanding of what is going on when paper seal strokes intersect which should not be that different from what makes 3d seals complicated.

Carving lowers or raises surfaces. Try deep dish seals? Layering ink on top of ink on top of ink. Check what happens to chakra channels when they distort from drawing on an embossed surface.
 
Interesting.

I think we should also put some thought into creating magnifying glasses specifically for 3D carving process of the gem blanks. It would allow Hazou to observe what materials he's working with. Hazou's gonna want to use some of Kagome's chakrascopes to help with more accurate or subtle chakra readings. To be honest, anything that can help with accuracy and precision work would do wonders. Thats the impression I got from chapter 593.

eaglejarl said:
He took out a chunk of pure corundum that he had saved from his earlier experiments on the Seventh Path. It had been carefully shaped to match the one-stroke seal that was the first of Jiraiya's training series. It had been compressed to provide hardness and its insides had been smoothed until the thing was utterly flawless. It was a three dimensional object in the shape of a seal and, if Hazō could successfully infuse his chakra into it, he hoped it would become an actual seal.

He reached into it as gently as he could manage, moving very slowly so as to eliminate any risk of distorting the material even slightly. It took him nearly half an hour to fully saturate the palm-sized chunk of almost-glass. Once his chakra was evenly distributed, he checked over the corundum, looking for the tiniest flaw or chip. Storage stress, or perhaps simply passage between Paths, had led to some miniscule distortions around the edges. He spent an hour wiping them away with infinite patience until the structure was once more perfect. Behind him, Noburi was a steady and reassuring presence, waiting silently so as not to intrude.
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It seems passing through the 7th path or containment in storage seals might also be a concern we need to worry about. Hazou should find it better to work with unmodified gems and then start carving on one path only.

eaglejarl said:
Hazō had used his chakra to 'draw the blank', forming the corundum into the shape he needed. He had filled it with his chakra. He had made the action of infusion. It hadn't worked.

Obviously it hadn't worked! There had been no directionality when he was making the blank! The brush strokes weren't simply a way to put ink on the page, they were a way to form chakra pathways. The stroke of the bristles was what made the channels that you infused. Hazō had formed the blank willy-nilly and then tried to put chakra into it. He had essentially tried to infuse a seal blank that had been stamped onto the page. No wonder it hadn't worked! There were no pathways, nothing to activate. It was as though he had tried to walk through a painting of a door.
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Just have to get good.
Or just buy some gems and then work on them from there.
 
If people want to know more about chakra machines and 3D sealing we should also talk to Ren:
eaglejarl said:
"I..." Asuma trailed off and was silent for a couple of paces. "Thank you? I'll send someone to the meeting with a quiet warning." He turned around and flashed handtalk at the ANBU who were trailing along just far enough back to not overhear a conversation spoken quietly. An instant later, one of them sprinted away.
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Maybe she is still here (and not mindbroken).
 
RandomOTP said:
But... I'm not sure what else would. Hazou-the-character has Sealing: Yes, and doesn't know.
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Note that Hazou does not have Sealing 80 yet, which would be the breakpoint for a Kage-level Sealmaster, and I would expect 3D Sealing to become an option by that point. I'd expect the relationship between Sealing and Earthshaping to mirror that of Sealing and Calligraphy, but for 3D Sealing, i.e you need ES to properly execute 3D Sealing but you need a lot of Sealing theory to be able to come up with the Seals in the first place.
 
Anyway I have a reason to suspect that Rice/Oro fanclub is behind Akane. (Yes I have a tinfoil hat, why do you ask)

The first is more of a meta reason, the colour court and Rice both share colour themes:

Velorien said:
"Well," Okamura paused to take another bite of his meat, "the Murano, the yellow clan
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Velorien said:
And their replacements in Sarubetsu's political arena are the Hinago, the violet clan.
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Velorien said:
"I don't know what the Harada's sphere of influence was, but I suppose they must have lost it, or maybe they had to allocate their resources somewhere more important. You don't see green much in the south anymore.
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And there is also
Velorien said:
Izanai red.
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(Not a good proof, but more colour naming)

Maybe this is how they meet, send secret representatives to deal with each other to avoid to much direct conflict.

My second reason is that the Hinago are interested in Biosealing or are actual ones, because they were the once who wanted Arikada:

Velorien said:
"Uh-huh," Noburi said. "While we wait, you mind telling us why this place is so quiet? It feels like a haunted house."

"Oh, they're nervous about something to do with sealcrofting," Ichiru said. "They said something to me about being polite and not making any sudden movements, but I was too busy evalumating my new formula to pay much attention. I wouldn't worry too much about it if I were you.
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And are also part of Orochimarus fan club,
(Same dude):
Velorien said:
You know what they say, the serpent is in the details.
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(Hinago we met in Mist during chunnin exams):
Velorien said:
"Not now, girls," Hinago said wearily. Hazō noticed her hand moving surreptitiously towards the snake-patterned pouch at her waist. "Do I need to remind you that the Moon Princess will awaken in six rounds if we don't do anything?"
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My third reason is that we encountred a Bioseal that turned Naruto into a cannibal and that was one of Orochimarus old seals, before he went missing-nin. So some form a Bioseal could have influenced Ruka to assign Akane some mission they could easier monitor. ("Send Goketsu West"). Also, Rice isn't really far away, they could wait and rotate teams very easily.

Thanks to our civilian sealing stuff, nobody would even suspect some civilian carrying some seals around, so our "insider" could be anyone.

And last, our Biosealing friends from Isan who are part of the same network were offered adoption at some point, maybe they enter Leaf every once in a while.

Killing Akane might not even bother them. Just resurect her for a time and squeeze information out of her.

TLDR: Let's grab some Biosealmasters from Rice, lets gooooo
 
Shrooms said:
Is Hazou just not skilled enough to use ES to imitate the pathways that a knife or carving instrument would make?
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If Hazou pushes chakra into smoothed, densified, purified stone, he will find that it radiates outwards in all directions. Physically manipulating the stone would not change the fact that the movement of chakra through the stone would be undirected.

Chakra ink likewise can conduct chakra. Pushing chakra into an inkwell would have a similar effect, where the infusion chakra would radiate outwards in all directions evenly. Brushstrokes make it so that chakra flows along the strokes rather than dissipating. This makes it possible to make seal elements. This is also why stamped seals, which have no strokes, cannot be used for sealing, as chakra infusing them would dissipate unevenly through the chakra ink in the seal, rather than flowing in a controlled manner through its seal elements.

Given that Hazou is capable of manipulating stone at the very finest levels now, it's unlikely that any physical manipulation of stone would let him form conductive pathways within it. It may not even be possible to form conductive pathways within stone -- none of Orochimaru's experiments on substrates used stone, after all.

coldcutconvict said:
The stroke is the basic unit of a seal. Take a stroke's cross section, it has a top and bottom and chakra channels with a direction. Same when two strokes intersect but the chakra channels have more chaotic directions. How would this be different in a 3d seal stroke cross section? Instead of top and bottom, there is inside and outside. Chakra channels can point in three dimensions. Maybe can be simplified with polar coordinates? We should already have an understanding of what is going on when paper seal strokes intersect which should not be that different from what makes 3d seals complicated.
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Notably, strokes should never intersect for ink-and-paper sealing unless you want a sealing failure. Don't cross the streams!
 
Paperclipped said:
Given that Hazou is capable of manipulating stone at the very finest levels now, it's unlikely that any physical manipulation of stone would let him form conductive pathways within it. It may not even be possible to form conductive pathways within stone -- none of Orochimaru's experiments on substrates used stone, after all.
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If i'm reading this right, doesn't this mean that in Hazou's expert opinion as high tier sealmaster that ES is a dead end?
 
Funnily enough the weird legal situation created by dint of Hazou and Ino's romantic relationship very well might end up getting resolved through project necromancy of all things.

As once Jiraiya's back from the dead, and presumably takes back the position of Goketsu Clan head, there will be nothing stopping Hazou from marrying into Yamanaka by way of marrying Ino just like Kei married into the Nara by way of marrying Shikamaru.
 
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