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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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@faflec I Managed to reduce your word count as well. To 262. In case you can do anything productive with 37 words.
  • Asuma:
    • Two objectives: Killing Dragons and repairing the Great Seal. We think the most valuable low-hanging fruit is... involving AMITY. And Akatsuki.
      • NB: Tread carefully; Akatsuki is a sensitive topic. Hazou IC can elect to talk in the context of AMITY in general.
      • Akatsuki contains S-rank Summoners (Itachi, Kisame) and sealmaster (Sasori).
      • Several AMITY signatories have Summoners and sealmasters.
      • Hazou doesn't know if they'll believe us, or just taking advantage of us. We lack the information for a cost-benefit analysis.
      • If there's a time for AMITY to be united in a goal, this is it.
    • Other:
      • The Great Seal is a puzzle we only have a few pieces of: we need more lore. Records of the sage's works are fragmentary and scattered, but clans have long memories, in the EN, the Seventh Path, and maybe also the Eastern Continent.
      • A main obstacle to 3D Sealing is a lack of chakra-conductive material. Heard of anything?
      • Plans for edge-case scenarios: If dragons escape us and fly off for an indeterminate timespan, or somehow makes it to the EN... Better be prepared.
      • Borrowing a dragon part from Orochimaru for a Conclave demonstration. If he shows up with Manda, he can display it himself.
    • Thanks for everything. You have patience despite our mistakes, and took us seriously about the Dragons despite many other pressing matters.
  • Orochimaru:
    • Optimize with Mari, Kei, Noburi.
    • Complying may be necessary. Can we try to mitigate OPSEC breaches?
    • Hazou can't think of much beyond requesting privacy, or bringing props to cross-reference. Thoughts?
    • Do what they suggest.

Sir Stompy said:
Current plan is 406 words according to Google Docs, I have cut a bit to drop it below the penalty threshold. Edited length is 392 words, edited phrases in bold. No real content changes, just shortened some phrasing.
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The one I posted 24 minutes prior is down to 371. And that's without editing the sections you did. So even less words is possible.
 
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Sir Stompy said:
I just want to point out that this is a laughably small amount compared to what Hazou will need for a full scale model. That's roughly 0.4 m^3 and a full scale model would be (based on EJ's comments of 1:3 model being 16m on a side) (16m)^3 * 3 = 12288 m^3
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Note that the Great Seal is not a densely packed cube of stone:
Velorien said:
It's in the form of a contiguous structure composed of relatively narrow lines, not a solid mass, meaning that its area is much larger than its volume. It covered the entire top of the butte, which was an approximate circle of approximately 50m diameter unless @faflec disagrees. The maximum depth was about 10m.

Total volume is probably about 100 cubic meters, give or take.
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The 1:3 scale replica was made with a grand total of 5 MEWs for materials.
Sir Stompy said:
Although the raw materials provided are completely inadequate.
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Seeing as Orochimaru has seen the Great Seal in person, you may assume that he is aware of its scale and will provide Hazou with materials and space accordingly.

ProperAttorney said:
One: Could we not simply (and truthfully) claim Clan Secrets on how we produce the replica? Was the previous replica made in sight of others? We could agree to Oro's request but ask to be left alone until it is completed.
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You can simply claim clan secrets, but you cannot truthfully claim it, seeing as Earthshaping is a public ninjutsu. The previous replica was constructed in a public training ground, and Hazou has made no particular efforts to hide his Earthshaping ability (e.g. making housing in the estate move, doing his first pass at the Jiraiya statue, etc.).

Sir Stompy said:
@Velorien @eaglejarl @Paperclipped the tally is messed up b/c Vel's interlude is not in the main story thread. I recommend moving it there until voting closes tomorrow at 6PM. Or do the count from post #222592
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Noted! Thanks.
 
Paperclipped said:
The 1:3 scale replica was made with a grand total of 5 MEWs for materials.
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Okay, thanks for clarifying, this is 5 m^3 of granite. Based on a 1:3 scale model we should expect the full scale replica to require 3^3 = 27 times as much material or 135 MEW casts. Each cubic meter of granite weighs ~2.75 tons. So we can expect the full scale model to need on the order of ~370 tons of rock.
Velorien said:
The space will be attachment to one of the levels of the Basement. He will provide around a ton of quartz.
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This is definitely not enough, but maybe Oro doesn't know how much a ton is? He is a biosealer after all, not a quarryman. Or he meant to write 400 but wrote 1 instead. We'll see.
 
Halberdier said:
Okay, but can we come to a consensus on the Orochimaru thing? Some people want to tell him everything we know, others don't. Some are fine building the model for him, others are concerned he'll learn about our bloodline, and we'll already be in the basement. Some seem inclined to get Asuma to help deal with it or warn him, others don't seem to care. We could have a vote, but I want to try something that will last longer:

-Like this post to do everything Oro wants regarding the great seal, let's just go for it.
-Heart this post to try and get Asuma to help us avoid being in a situation where Oro discovers our bloodline.
-Informative this if you want to make a new 3D seal replica in public, and make an excuse why you're doing it that way (so other sealmasters can help, maybe? Or so we also have access to it?)
-Insightful react if you'd like to stall until we hit ES 50, and see what goodies we get (like Noburi being busy with Tsunade is an excellent excuse, stuff like that)
-Laugh react if you wanna do the XP for "No, we don't trust you Snucle, deal with it" challenge.
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Well, with almost half of all responders agreeing, I think that means "just give Orochimaru what he wants regarding the great seal" is favoured approach.
 
FaintlySorcerous said:
[X] Action Plan: Answering Asuma, Soothing Snakes
Word count: <400
  • Asuma:
    • Preamble:
      • What more can Goketsu do? No promises, but everything (including clan secrets) is on the table.
        • Tone: Asuma is putting Leaf behind this 100%. We're with him.
      • Thank you. You believed us and mobilized Leaf. You offer patience and understanding despite everything. We saw what being Hokage was like for Jiraiya, and have a (very limited) idea of the stress.
      • Approach: articulate the problems, request Asuma's proposals/solutions, and then make our suggestions. This limits what we can phrase badly.
    • Problem 1: Great Seal. We don't know how it works, what it's made of, or the historical context.
    • Problem 2: Dragons. We have minimal intelligence. We need to maximize firepower.
    • Suggestions:
      • How open should we be with Orochimaru regarding 3D sealing? His personal power will spike if he cracks it. We haven't been withholding, but we haven't made a point of absolute openness.
      • Anything we can learn about the Sage, sealing (locking away) entities, Dragons, or other sealing traditions (e.g., 2D carvings) could prove vital.
        • Can Leaf's Summoners meet with 7th Path storytellers? They have long memories.
        • Was the Nagi Island seal 3D?
        • Libraries/archives, Leaf and clan, are potential sources. We don't want personal access. Could librarians search?
        • Describe the GS stone, relay Orochimaru's 'options'. Any other ideas for chakra-conductive material? Chakra metal is obvious but impossible to source.
          • Skyslicers and Shadow Clone could maybe defeat Chakra Golems?
          • Describe the weird living cave: does he know anything about that sort of thing?
      • AMITY is a potential source of knowledge, expertise, and Summoners.
        • Geopolitics is out of our lane. Is this being considered/handled?
      • Would attributing EM to Enma/Kumokogo be useful for OPSEC?
      • Mareo could potentially help - he's another Summoner and near Dog.
        • Can we offer him citizenship or an ANBU escort? More useful for Leaf than Dragons - left it last for that reason.
  • Orochimaru:
    • Optimize with Kei, Mari, Noburi.
    • Require privacy during construction. Orochimaru is intimidating, and we need to concentrate.
      • Depending on Asuma's answer above, we'll happily discuss construction techniques.
    • Upon arrival but before construction, discuss his 3D sealing theories. Make suggestions, ask questions. Let Orochimaru dictate how long the discussion lasts.
      • Treat him like a respected senior colleague.
      • Ask about his impression of the Dragons. Share ours if prompted.
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This is final-ish. I have ~20 words to work with: I am happy to include minor allusions to pet projects in exchange for votes.
 
I made my own plan as a combination of the ones from FaintlySorcerous and faflec. With a pretty lean word count despite that, if I may say so. Taking suggestions for the remaining 26 words available.

[X] Action Plan: Asuma Combination Response
Word Count: 373
  • Asuma:
    • Tone:
      • Asuma is putting Leaf behind this 100%. We're with him.
      • First lay out problems, letting Asuma contribute, then suggestions and requests.
      • Tread lightly around any mentions of Akatsuki.
      • Maximize EM OPSEC.
      • Wary of Orochimaru.
    • Two objectives:
      1. Killing Dragons. We have minimal intelligence. We need to maximize firepower.
      2. Repairing Great Seal. We don't know how it works, what it's made of or the historical context.
    • Need scattered lore on the Sage, entity sealing, dragons, other sealing traditions.
      • Sources: Clans from Elemental Nations, 7th Path, Eastern Continent?
      • Approaches: Summoners ask storytellers. Leaf Clan librarians research. Nagi Island seal (3D?).
    • Suggest involving AMITY (and Akatsuki).
      • They have multiple top Summoners, Sealmasters and Thinkers.
      • Hazou lacks the geopolitics expertise to know involved costs and benefits.
      • Can Ami or the Nara help?
      • If there's a time for AMITY to be united in a goal, this is it.
    • 3D sealing needs Chakra-conductive material. Suggestions?
      • Skyslicers and Shadow Clone may defeat Chakra Golems?
      • Mention cave Orochimaru told us about and contents thereof.
    • How open should we be with Orochimaru regarding 3D sealing? His personal power will spike if he cracks it. We haven't been withholding, but haven't made a point of absolute openness.
      • Wants us to create replica in his basement.
    • Either borrow Orochimaru's dragon part to display at Conclave or have him display it there.
    • Is attributing EM to Enma/Kumokogo useful for OPSEC?
    • Offer citizenship, ANBU escort to Mareo? Get Bear Boss on site?
    • How can Goketsu help more? No promises, but even clan secrets are on the table.
    • Thank Asuma for believing us, for showing patience despite our mistakes. Witnessing Jiraiya as Hokage gives us a (very limited) idea of the stress.
  • Orochimaru:
    • Optimize with Mari, Kei, Noburi.
      • Relay Asuma's opinion.
      • Complying probably necessary. Can we minimize OPSEC breaches?
      • Hazou's only ideas: Requesting privacy (Orochimaru distractingly scary), or bringing props to cross-reference that hide perfect memory. Thoughts?
      • Replica size: 3:1 or bigger?
      • Want to discuss his 3D sealing theories.
    • Do what they suggest.
    • Pre-construction discussion:
      • Treat Orochimaru like a respected senior colleague.
      • Discuss 3D sealing theory. Make suggestions, ask questions (keeping in mind opinions of Asuma and Goketsu).
      • Ask about his impression of the Dragons. Share ours if prompted.
      • Let Orochimaru dictate discussion length.

[X] Action Plan: Answering Asuma, Soothing Snakes
 
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Rafin said:
I made my own plan as a combination of the ones from FaintlySorcerous and faflec. With a pretty lean word count despite that, if I may say so. Taking suggestions for the remaining 26 words available.

[X] Action Plan: Asuma Combination Response
Word Count: 373
  • Asuma:
    • Tone:
      • Asuma is putting Leaf behind this 100%. We're with him.
      • First lay out problems, letting Asuma contribute, then suggestions and requests.
      • Tread lightly around any mentions of Akatsuki.
      • Maximize EM OPSEC.
      • Wary of Orochimaru.
    • Two objectives:
      1. Killing Dragons. We have minimal intelligence. We need to maximize firepower.
      2. Repairing Great Seal. We don't know how it works, what it's made of or the historical context.
    • Need scattered lore on the Sage, entity sealing, dragons, other sealing traditions.
      • Sources: Clans from Elemental Nations, 7th Path, Eastern Continent?
      • Approaches: Summoners ask storytellers. Leaf Clan librarians research. Nagi Island seal (3D?).
    • Suggest involving AMITY (and Akatsuki).
      • They have multiple top Summoners, Sealmasters and Thinkers.
      • Hazou lacks the geopolitics expertise to know involved costs and benefits.
      • Can Ami or the Nara help?
      • If there's a time for AMITY to be united in a goal, this is it.
    • 3D sealing needs Chakra-conductive material. Suggestions?
      • Skyslicers and Shadow Clone may defeat Chakra Golems?
      • Mention cave Orochimaru told us about and contents thereof.
    • How open should we be with Orochimaru regarding 3D sealing? His personal power will spike if he cracks it. We haven't been withholding, but haven't made a point of absolute openness.
      • Wants us to create replica in his basement.
    • Either borrow Orochimaru's dragon part to display at Conclave or have him display it there.
    • Is attributing EM to Enma/Kumokogo useful for OPSEC?
    • Offer citizenship, ANBU escort to Mareo? Get Bear Boss on site?
    • How can Goketsu help more? No promises, but even clan secrets are on the table.
    • Thank Asuma for believing us, for showing patience despite our mistakes. Witnessing Jiraiya as Hokage gives us a (very limited) idea of the stress.
  • Orochimaru:
    • Optimize with Mari, Kei, Noburi.
      • Relay Asuma's opinion.
      • Complying probably necessary. Can we minimize OPSEC breaches?
      • Hazou's only ideas: Requesting privacy (Orochimaru distractingly scary), or bringing props to cross-reference that hide perfect memory. Thoughts?
      • Replica size: 3:1 or bigger?
      • Want to discuss his 3D sealing theories.
    • Do what they suggest.
    • Pre-construction discussion:
      • Treat Orochimaru like a respected senior colleague.
      • Discuss 3D sealing theory. Make suggestions, ask questions (keeping in mind opinions of Asuma and Goketsu).
      • Ask about his impression of the Dragons. Share ours if prompted.
      • Let Orochimaru dictate discussion length.

[X] Action Plan: Answering Asuma, Soothing Snakes
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I appreciate the vigor, but given that voting is closing in, I believe 17 minutes, I'm unsure how much ground it will gain.
 
Oh whoops. Next time then.

Edit: From which chapter on are we counting votes?
 
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[X] Action Plan: Answering Asuma, Soothing Snakes

[X] Training plan Hazō: commit to ES50
Iris-Iven-Ibis threw 1 100-faced dice. Reason: ES LV 50 LET'S GOOOOOOO! Total: 32
32 32
 
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ProperAttorney said:
Not the method of creation, but rather how we have the knowledge to make it. In the same way that you can claim a particular seal is a clan's secret even though calligraphy as a skill is publicly known.
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This, to my knowledge, is not how Clan Secrets work. They are always seals, jutsu, fighting styles, bloodlines. Not applications of the same.

So Sealing and Callig are not possible to secretize, 5SB would be a possible Clan Secret, and skyslicers would not be possible to secretize.
 
Adhoc vote count started by eaglejarl on Apr 15, 2023 at 6:06 PM, finished with 420 posts and 26 votes.
[asuma] [conclave]
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Voting is closed.

Welp, looks like the '[task]' voting didn't work.
 
Sir Stompy said:
This, to my knowledge, is not how Clan Secrets work. They are always seals, jutsu, fighting styles, bloodlines. Not applications of the same.

So Sealing and Callig are not possible to secretize, 5SB would be a possible Clan Secret, and skyslicers would not be possible to secretize.
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Mist Drain is considered a clan secret, as I recall, despite being simply an application of the Vampiric Dew. Clan secrets are often something that could be copied and stolen completely, but the operative word is 'secret' and encompasses other secrets that cannot be copied.

Like, you can't steal the Iron Nerve from Hazou. You can't steal any bloodline at all outside of extremely anomalous circumstances. If it was only the bloodline itself that was protected there would essentially be no protections at all. Bloodline-based clan secrets are all about applications of the bloodline. Hazou's ability to download seals (which is how he knows what shape to recreate with ES) is a secret application of his bloodline and thus a clan secret.

Edit: perhaps a better model would be the question "Could I do this too?" FOOM can't be a clan secret because it's easy for others to do once they think of it; it doesn't require anything they don't already have (presuming that 'access to Noburi' is something all Leaf jounin have at this point). A jutsu can be a clan secret because if you aren't taught the jutsu you simply cannot do it[1]​. An application of a jutsu can't be a clan secret because if you know the jutsu you could figure out how to do it yourself. Basically, 'not a clan secret' is a large exception carved out of clan secret laws where you can reasonably appeal that you independently discovered it.

Bloodline applications, by this logic, are not something you can do. You can't Mist Drain without the Vampiric Dew, so nobody can go and say "Mist Drain isn't a clan secret because I figured it out on my own". Hazou's Iron Nerve is not something anyone else in Konoha has, and not something anyone else in Konoha can have, so anything the Iron Nerve can do isn't something that anyone can independently rediscover. Thus, Hazou's bloodline applications, including the ability to download seals and recreate them later, would reasonably count as a clan secret.

[1] And even then, we know that the Nara were allowed to make their own Macerators by observing ours and having the sealing skill to recreate it. I similarly expect that if a THer managed to recreate a jutsu from scratch, one that they saw publicly but were not taught, the ruling would land on the side of 'this is fair game, the THer invented it on their own'.
 
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eaglejarl said:
Adhoc vote count started by eaglejarl on Apr 15, 2023 at 6:06 PM, finished with 420 posts and 26 votes.
[asuma] [conclave]
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Voting is closed.

Welp, looks like the '[task]' voting didn't work.
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I'm sure some folks just forgot, but I think a lot of it is that it a plan is named beforehand, or named wrongly, there's no way to fix it without losing all your votes, which is unfortunate. But I think it's a good idea, and hopefully will work better on future iterations as we become more familiar with it.
 
Inferno Vulpix said:
Edit: perhaps a better model would be the question "Could I do this too?" FOOM can't be a clan secret because it's easy for others to do once they think of it; it doesn't require anything they don't already have (presuming that 'access to Noburi' is something all Leaf jounin have at this point). A jutsu can be a clan secret because if you aren't taught the jutsu you simply cannot do it[1]. An application of a jutsu can't be a clan secret because if you know the jutsu you could figure out how to do it yourself. Basically, 'not a clan secret' is a large exception carved out of clan secret laws where you can reasonably appeal that you independently discovered it.
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Yes I think that's a better model. Most applications of seals/justu can't be Clan Secrets because anyone with the seals/jutsu can do them, and if they have that seal/jutsu it's clearly not a Clan Secret, but bloodlines are the complete opposite.
 
eaglejarl said:
Adhoc vote count started by eaglejarl on Apr 15, 2023 at 6:06 PM, finished with 420 posts and 26 votes.
[asuma] [conclave]
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Voting is closed.

Welp, looks like the '[task]' voting didn't work.
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There are three tabs in the tally.
 
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