Whether adding another mental bloodline would interfere with our own.

This is why we test on civilian volunteers first.

We would already have to invest in Int to raise the Medical Skills needed for the project, so we would already have reached a cap of ~25, making Monomaniacal useless.

Skills don't cap.

The QMs already chip in via Keiko.

No. If Kei is present then they edit the winning plan. They don't actually give FS insights during discussion.

Its not worth the effort invested in it, to me at least. And it removes other opportunities for research. How many seals for healing or transport or creating new stuff are we missing because we want to make our team an unholy fusion of each other's bloodlines? We haven't even researched one unique seal yet

If you don't think getting Hazou monomanical Sealing is worth our time then I guess I'll see you on the voting field.
 
Frozen Skein destroys creativity, so I'm pretty sure that having the Mori voice is inherently incompatible with us voting on plans at all.
FS) Find out exactly what the Mori Voice is (asking Pantsaa would be a good starting point), and see if there's any way to suppress the effects of In Winter's Grasp.
*sigh*

Please see my earlier comment about finding a way to supress In Winter's Grasp.
It's totally worth it, and all we need to do is find a way to suppress In Winter's Grasp.
 
Why would you think this is possible? In Winter's Grasp isn't some arbitrary limitation that exists because someone thought it'd be hilarious, it's an inherent drawback of the bloodline that people have presumably been trying to mitigate for as long as it has existed and failed. At best, you might find some way to temporarily remove all its effects.
 
You know, I wonder if when we have enough level of Technique Hacking, can we upgrade MEW into something akin to Full Metal Alchemist' Alchemy? If we can, it would be a fearsome combination alongside Hazou's Roki and Taijutsu.

*feints*
*enemy is not fooled. Blocks up*
*Sudden uppercut from the ground*
 
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Why would you think this is possible? In Winter's Grasp isn't some arbitrary limitation that exists because someone thought it'd be hilarious, it's an inherent drawback of the bloodline that people have presumably been trying to mitigate for as long as it has existed and failed. At best, you might find some way to temporarily remove all its effects.

As far as I know, there are exactly two people in canon who have the mindset and expertise to try something like this.

Orochimaru and Kabuto.

And now we can add Hazou to the list of people who fit the criteria.

Orochimaru's feats include:
  • becoming immortal through the means of both bodyjacking and a phylactery network
  • successfully implanting the sharingan into bodyparts that lack eye-sockets on two seperate cases (Danzo and Shin)
  • implanting sonic weapons into a subordinate's body with no known downsides
  • turning himself into a swarm of snakes in the shape of a snake
  • probably loads of other stuff
  • EDIT: "other stuff" includes successfully giving Tenzo Wood Element
Kabuto:
  • invented a medical technique that lets him regenerate
  • improved Edo Tensei
  • bioengineered himself, giving himself multiple bloodlines, and being able to form copies of other sound-nin out of his flesh
  • probably other stuff
To say that the best we'll ever acomplish is temporarily deactivating FS as a whole sounds very naïve to me.

We have plenty of advantages here:

Hazou belonging to the very exclusive "life can and should be tinkered with and upgraded" club.
The willing cooperation of Kei.
Pantsaa's knowledge of whatever the Mori voice really is.
Not one but three sealsmiths (if we can get Jiraiya's cooperation, which I believe we can if we're willing to spend a favour).
Noburi's soon-to-be medical prowess.
 
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Orochimaru and Kabuto.

And now we can add Hazou to the list of people who fit the criteria.
The fact that you can so readily draw this connection is the kind of thing that I imagine keeps the QMs up at night :D

On the other hand, as you mention, there are only those two in canon, which as we know runs off of enough handwavium and idiot-ball passing to supply several small countries. Frankly, if there aren't many more MfD characters who approach the world this way I'm going to be shocked and a little disappointed.

I could easily see e.g. rational!Jiraya being this way, or any number of the movers and shakers in canon, or the whole freaking Nara clan.

I certainly hope that our munchkiny outlook on life gives us a big advantage - it certainly gives us some, but I don't think we know enough IC to tell how much.
 
On the other hand, as you mention, there are only those two in canon, which as we know runs off of enough handwavium and idiot-ball passing to supply several small countries. Frankly, if there aren't many more MfD characters who approach the world this way I'm going to be shocked and a little disappointed.

Basically, my mental model of MfD is that most people are exactly how you imagine feudal peasants, the hidden villages are sociopathic corporations (sensible (though not optimally so) and frighteningly competent, but self-interested rather than altruists, and certainly not effective altruists), Orochimaru is evil!Eliezer Yudkowsky, and Hidden Sound is evil!the rationalist subculture that built up around his cult of personality.
 
Basically, my mental model of MfD is that most people are exactly how you imagine feudal peasants, the hidden villages are sociopathic corporations (sensible (though not optimally so) and frighteningly competent, but self-interested rather than altruists, and certainly not effective altruists), Orochimaru is evil!Eliezer Yudkowsky, and Hidden Sound is evil!the rationalist subculture that built up around his cult of personality.

Assuming Hidden Sound exists and Orochimaru actually defected and wasn't just enabled to do his research in Leaf instead of course.

Should we ask Jiriaya about this?
 
With how much we keep talking about Orochimaru, I would not be surprised at all if it turns out that Hiruzen saw him for what he was and killed him way before he got a good chance to defect and all the little signs we see about his existence are just some sort of legacy characters (Anko, Kabuto etc.) paying homage to him. It would be very dramatically appropriate.

Like say: YOUTHS BURNING PASSION
All xp costs for this style and its pre-requisites are reduced to .75
All xp costs for other styles are increased by 1.5

Some clarification from the QM's on what is a reasonable drawback (if this is at all close to reasonable) would be necessary.
From less constricting to more:
1. Only other taijutsu styles cost more
2. Other taijutsu styles and their prereqs cost more
3. All skills cost more
4. All skills cost more, other taijutu-style prereqs cost more
5. All skills and their prereqs cost more

This will, of course, turn Akane into a one-trick pony(Lee light), but the returns in xp on the style will enable a very strong character in this particular field. The savings we will have will increase as the levels increase enabling us to build a stronger character for less xp. The feasibility will rely on which drawback-variant the QMs feels are reasonable and whether we want Akane to be a one-trick pony or not.

My gut feeling without checking (Yes, I'm lazy...) is that if the style raised the XP requirements of other skills it really wouldn't be worth it. Flavor wise, I don't really want to turn Akane into a one trick pony that only knows how to punch. That was okay for us when we were getting harassed by all sorts of wildlife at the beginning of the quest, but from now on the most relevant physical threats we are starting to tussle with will be special jounin level and up hit squads designed to murder the shit out of us. Punching is not going to cut it beyond a fallback/emergency measure.
 
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We know Orochimaru's a missing nin. Sound isn't much of a stretch.
We know he's a missing-nin in MfD? I don't remember that being mentioned explicitly. Might be my memory being faulty. Would you mind pointing me to a reference or could we get a ruling about what we know or whether this has been confirmed OOC @eaglejarl?

In the player-knowledge doc Hazou knows explicitly "nothing" about Orochimaru. This means he isn't even known as one of the Sannin or just that Hazou knows nothing about the Sannin.
 
My gut feeling without checking (Yes, I'm lazy...) is that if the style raised the XP requirements of other skills it really wouldn't be worth it. Flavor wise, I don't really want to turn Akane into a one trick pony that only knows how to punch. That was okay for us when we were getting harassed by all sorts of wildlife at the beginning of the quest, but from now on the most relevant physical threats we are starting to tussle with will be special jounin level and up hit squads designed to murder the shit out of us. Punching is not going to cut it beyond a fallback/emergency measure.
I figured as much. It was more a way of checking if my idea was of interest to any of the min-maxers out there, since this would allow us to munchkin into punching harder faster by simply pumping xp into the style.
 
But they do reach a point of diminishing returns. I'm assuming ~25 to be that point due the techniques listed for the genjutsu skill, and also because we rarely get above 25 XP per update. At that point it's not economical or time efficient to invest in it.
No. If Kei is present then they edit the winning plan. They don't actually give FS insights during discussion.
So? We still get the best parts of FS, where our plans are altered to become better at their chosen goal.
 
Should we ask Jiriaya about this?
Ah yes, that'll go swimmingly :p

Hazou: So Jiraiya, I understand that one of the other Sannin has developed advanced biology-altering ninjutsu. Any way we can get in on that?

Jiraiya: What? I already told Noburi that Tsunade wasn't someone I'm willing to put you in contact with.

H: I meant Orochimaru actually. You know, with the crazy bloodline transplantation and immortality research and whatnot?

J: ...how do you know about that?

H: Some of my inner voices said to ask about it, and you just confirmed it.

J: *blinks* So, just to be clear, you want me to buy that the voices in your head told you to ask about highly classified foreign state secrets, and they were right.

H: Well when you put it that way...
 
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But they do reach a point of diminishing returns. I'm assuming ~25 to be that point due the techniques listed for the genjutsu skill, and also because we rarely get above 25 XP per update. At that point it's not economical or time efficient to invest in it.

So? We still get the best parts of FS, where our plans are altered to become better at their chosen goal.

I can't find anything in the genjutsu rules about diminishing returns.

Not that it would especially matter, because we're going above Sealing 25 anyway, so we might as well be cost efficient about it. If Hazou had monomanical right now he would meet the INT requirements for Sealing 36.

And having FS gets the QMs to cut off lines of discussion that wouldn't work so that we can focus our energy on things that will. Making our planning more effective is always a good thing.
 
Fine.
I do hope we will first treat Keiko's Heart of Winter thing. I'm not too comfortable experimenting on her. Maybe her sister could be our test subject instead?

Also, there have been references to the Frozen Skein as a program. Was this an eugenics program or just concentrating Yin chakra in kids? We could potentially seal tons of Yin chakra in ourselves to imitate the effects of the Skein. Could be similar to a cerebral version of Tsunade's Yin Seal, at least as far as storing and releasing Yin chakra in herself are concerned. She uses it to enhance her healing, but given the mental associations of Yin chakra, we could do a knockoff Skein that way.
 
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Fine.
I do hope we will first treat Keiko's Heart of Winter thing. I'm not too comfortable experimenting on her. Maybe her sister could be our test subject instead?
I believe @MadScientist suggested civilians some posts back - that way we can get practice both with transferring bloodlines and with fixing problems

E:
And obviously test everything on civilian volunteers before we do anything at all to our team.
Ah yes, "volunteers" :p
 
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I believe @MadScientist suggested civilians some posts back - that way we can get practice both with transferring bloodlines and with fixing problems

E:

Ah yes, "volunteers" :p


I'd prefer actual volunteers ("This might kill you or it might give you superpowers. If you get powers, great! We'll give you a good job in our up and coming merchant empire. If it kills you, we'll pay your family enough to live comfortably without you."), but tbh unwilling bandits would work as test subjects as well. I mean, we would just kill them anyway. We might as well get something useful out of their deaths.

EDIT: To clarify, I'd really rather that we didn't use unwilling test subjects, but given that we're in a death world it may be that our options are "use unwilling test subjects" or "not have the edge needed to survive a surprise visit from Pein", in which case the unwilling test subjects we use should at least be people that will only cause harm to others and that we won't lose sleep over killing.
 
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And having FS gets the QMs to cut off lines of discussion that wouldn't work so that we can focus our energy on things that will. Making our planning more effective is always a good thing.

I was ignoring this earlier because it didn't seem relevant for the immediate future, but I think I'll take a friendly stab at your Mori/Wakahisa/Kurosawa hybrids. Mind that all of this is pure conjecture and I don't really know anything about anything.

To my understanding, the Kurosawa bloodline makes some pretty heavy duty edits to the whole nervous system, up from the peripheries that are normally not under conscious control to perception to information processing.

The Wakahisa bloodline heavily alters the chakra-circulatory system from normal. I don't know how that's connected to the nervous system, but my initial guess would be 'intimately' at least in some parts. (Based on how chakra circulation can be controlled through physical movement like handseals and how they get sensory feedback through water etc.)

The Mori bloodline is all about information processing, and I have a feeling that it works by unloading the process to some sort of chakra entity from other dimension, and most of the physical alterations to a Mori brain come from the need to accommodate that connection. Some of these alterations seem to be pretty destructive to the Mori brain. (I mean really, a direct hit to creativity; that seems like a pretty critical part of human brain architecture and probably touches many areas.)

To summarize, IN probably makes use of lot of the same areas as VD and FS. VD and FS don't seem to be that connected with each other, but I would be very surprised if they didn't use at least some of the same stuff. That's just what my vague layman's understanding of human anatomy gives me (I could totally be wrong about these things). On top of the standard meat stuff, add the chakra circulatory system that all of the three bloodlines probably make use of heavily and you'll probably find even more parts that are used by all of the three bloodlines at the same time.

What I basically see is three very different systems, that use a lot of the same hardware and have plenty of overlap inside the ninja's body. Properly understanding how one works is already a huge task. Splicing two together would already be insanely difficult and combining all three sounds like a dream. Doing it for full grown subjects instead of growing the new hybrids from ground up probably adds even more difficulty factor.

Even if we ever start figuring out how all of them could possibly come together, I have a feeling long before that level of competency we will have enough know-how to create something completely original and simpler from the good parts of all three. (For example, a brain-dead Wakahiza backpack grown from harvested cells for external chakra storage sounds way more doable and would give us most of the bloodline benefits already.)

Not that I'm against trying this if we find a way to do it without being pants-on-the-head evil about it. It could be fun.
 
I was ignoring this earlier because it didn't seem relevant for the immediate future, but I think I'll take a friendly stab at your Mori/Wakahisa/Kurosawa hybrids. Mind that all of this is pure conjecture and I don't really know anything about anything.

To my understanding, the Kurosawa bloodline makes some pretty heavy duty edits to the whole nervous system, up from the peripheries that are normally not under conscious control to perception to information processing.

The Wakahisa bloodline heavily alters the chakra-circulatory system from normal. I don't know how that's connected to the nervous system, but my initial guess would be 'intimately' at least in some parts. (Based on how chakra circulation can be controlled through physical movement like handseals and how they get sensory feedback through water etc.)

The Mori bloodline is all about information processing, and I have a feeling that it works by unloading the process to some sort of chakra entity from other dimension, and most of the physical alterations to a Mori brain come from the need to accommodate that connection. Some of these alterations seem to be pretty destructive to the Mori brain. (I mean really, a direct hit to creativity; that seems like a pretty critical part of human brain architecture and probably touches many areas.)

To summarize, IN probably makes use of lot of the same areas as VD and FS. VD and FS don't seem to be that connected with each other, but I would be very surprised if they didn't use at least some of the same stuff. That's just what my vague layman's understanding of human anatomy gives me (I could totally be wrong about these things). On top of the standard meat stuff, add the chakra circulatory system that all of the three bloodlines probably make use of heavily and you'll probably find even more parts that are used by all of the three bloodlines at the same time.

What I basically see is three very different systems, that use a lot of the same hardware and have plenty of overlap inside the ninja's body. Properly understanding how one works is already a huge task. Splicing two together would already be insanely difficult and combining all three sounds like a dream. Doing it for full grown subjects instead of growing the new hybrids from ground up probably adds even more difficulty factor.

Even if we ever start figuring out how all of them could possibly come together, I have a feeling long before that level of competency we will have enough know-how to create something completely original and simpler from the good parts of all three. (For example, a brain-dead Wakahiza backpack grown from harvested cells for external chakra storage sounds way more doable and would give us most of the bloodline benefits already.)

Not that I'm against trying this if we find a way to do it without being pants-on-the-head evil about it. It could be fun.

These are valid concerns, and things that we'll probably have to work around while testing.

My understanding is that they don't use the exact same structures (IN uses motor cortex, FS uses frontal cortex, VD uses... chakra cortex?) so they should be able to slot together. But there might indeed be overlap and issues that arise there.

Sufficient medic levels might be able to let us cheat a little by adding more brain tissue in the areas which multiple bloodlines use, but of course that carries it's own heap of problems.

It's definitely something to think about.

EDIT: Although we at least know that it's possible, because Kabuto did it.
 
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I'd prefer actual volunteers ("This might kill you or it might give you superpowers. If you get powers, great! We'll give you a good job in our up and coming merchant empire. If it kills you, we'll pay your family enough to live comfortably without you."), but tbh unwilling bandits would work as test subjects as well. I mean, we would just kill them anyway. We might as well get something useful out of their deaths.

EDIT: To clarify, I'd really rather that we didn't use unwilling test subjects, but given that we're in a death world it may be that our options are "use unwilling test subjects" or "not have the edge needed to survive a surprise visit from Pein", in which case the unwilling test subjects we use should at least be people that will only cause harm to others and that we won't lose sleep over killing.
I figured, and we're totally on the same page here; I was playing up the evil angle, but as someone whose RL career involves medical experimentation I'm all about doing so ethically.
 
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My understanding is that they don't use the exact same structures (IN uses motor cortex, FS uses frontal cortex, VD uses... chakra cortex?) so they should be able to slot together. But there might indeed be overlap and issues that arise there.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the "this area of the brain deals with this task" just approximations/simplifications? I mean yes, damage to certain areas demonstrably leads to loss of certain functions but that doesn't mean there's no...err...subcontracting and cooperation between different brain areas.

I can't remember what different areas of the brain are supposed to do what, and wikipedia's presentation on what is what is surprisingly convoluted. (...and slightly inconsistent in terminology? This is why using a single book as a reference material is better than using a wiki. The books are usually edited for consistency so it's easier to get the big picture out of them without reading through everything three times.) So I'll just refer to what (ostensibly) similar brain functions IN as FS touch according what we've seen in the quest.

Both IN and FS deal with decision making. IN lets Hazou branch out the different (mostly apparent) options in combat at high speeds and pick the correct one, whereas FS enables Keiko to consider the options more in the abstract and add more in depth analysis on probabilities at the price of impaired creativity. These seem like things that come from overlapping brain areas.

Also note how after combat (see aftermath of Let The Bodies Hit The Floor) Hazou seemingly loses some of his personality and has a really hard time with social interactions...almost like Keiko when she starts starts dipping into the bloodline. Both of them also have attention issues soon after dipping into their bloodlines.

IN came from doujutsu and there's a strong visual component (see Hazou fighting and copying seals). I'm pretty sure that when Keiko dips into her bloodline there was weird visual feedback involved (can't remember where in the quest we see it for the first time) so that's probably another area where they link.

There was also other sort of sensory feedback (I think "icy" and "cold" were the words used) included with the Mori trance. Motor control, which IN is all about, and sensory feedback were pretty closely linked inside the brain if I remember correctly (pretty strong IF) so I think we have a one more function that the two bloodlines tamper with.

That's quite many conflict areas just inside the the brain and between two bloodlines. I'm pretty sure we will find more if add Wakahisa to things and consider rest of the nervous system starting from the spine and moving down. Then again, if we can reliably mess with the brain rest of the nervous system won't be too much of a hurdle. Dropping chakra on top of this might makes things even more complicated (or not, depending how the flesh/chakra interaction really works).


I'm thinking that messing with all that inside the human body will be really complicated if we don't want to end up with a lot of dead bodies (or brain-dead teammates). It might be easier to take the good bits and try to build some sort of external biomachinery for specific tasks. We could use IN for the control system, VD for routing and storing power (still need to get the power from somewhere...but meh) and FS for processing needs.

The problem is that adding the FS part will probably lead to eldricht horrors trying to invade the physical world through our new bioroids...but I'm sure that won't be as a bad as it sounds.

EDIT: Now that I wrote all that I get the feeling that someone made all these points already way back in the thread...Oh well, there's bound to be some repetition in a thread this long.
 
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the "this area of the brain deals with this task" just approximations/simplifications? I mean yes, damage to certain areas demonstrably leads to loss of certain functions but that doesn't mean there's no...err...subcontracting and cooperation between different brain areas.

I can't remember what different areas of the brain are supposed to do what, and wikipedia's presentation on what is what is surprisingly convoluted. (...and slightly inconsistent in terminology? This is why using a single book as a reference material is better than using a wiki. The books are usually edited for consistency so it's easier to get the big picture out of them without reading through everything three times.) So I'll just refer to what (ostensibly) similar brain functions IN as FS touch according what we've seen in the quest.

Both IN and FS deal with decision making. IN lets Hazou branch out the different (mostly apparent) options in combat at high speeds and pick the correct one, whereas FS enables Keiko to consider the options more in the abstract and add more in depth analysis on probabilities at the price of impaired creativity. These seem like things that come from overlapping brain areas.

Also note how after combat (see aftermath of Let The Bodies Hit The Floor) Hazou seemingly loses some of his personality and has a really hard time with social interactions...almost like Keiko when she starts starts dipping into the bloodline. Both of them also have attention issues soon after dipping into their bloodlines.

IN came from doujutsu and there's a strong visual component (see Hazou fighting and copying seals). I'm pretty sure that when Keiko dips into her bloodline there was weird visual feedback involved (can't remember where in the quest we see it for the first time) so that's probably another area where they link.

There was also other sort of sensory feedback (I think "icy" and "cold" were the words used) included with the Mori trance. Motor control, which IN is all about, and sensory feedback were pretty closely linked inside the brain if I remember correctly (pretty strong IF) so I think we have a one more function that the two bloodlines tamper with.

That's quite many conflict areas just inside the the brain and between two bloodlines. I'm pretty sure we will find more if add Wakahisa to things and consider rest of the nervous system starting from the spine and moving down. Then again, if we can reliably mess with the brain rest of the nervous system won't be too much of a hurdle. Dropping chakra on top of this might makes things even more complicated (or not, depending how the flesh/chakra interaction really works).


I'm thinking that messing with all that inside the human body will be really complicated if we don't want to end up with a lot of dead bodies (or brain-dead teammates). It might be easier to take the good bits and try to build some sort of external biomachinery for specific tasks. We could use IN for the control system, VD for routing and storing power (still need to get the power from somewhere...but meh) and FS for processing needs.

The problem is that adding the FS part will probably lead to eldricht horrors trying to invade the physical world through our new bioroids...but I'm sure that won't be as a bad as it sounds.

EDIT: Now that I wrote all that I get the feeling that someone made all these points already way back in the thread...Oh well, there's bound to be some repetition in a thread this long.

That's probably correct, but we need to remember that all bloodlines will have a neurological component, and yet Kabuto succesfully gave himself several without issue.
 
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