It seems very likely that another reason Ami did it is because it's an answer to the problem of her growing to care about us. It's harder to grow to like someone who is angry at you and who you are angry at. It's also very hard to like someone who stood by while you got a Gōketsu-style hair wash.

Although this may have been a subconscious reason. Whether it worked probably depends on how close Ami was to actually considering us family.

Edit:
Also, making Hazō angry at her would make him not want to continue acting in ways that would make her respect and like him.
 
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It seems very likely that another reason Ami did it is because it's an answer to the problem of her growing to care about us. It's harder to grow to like someone who is angry at you and who you are angry at. It's also very hard to like someone who stood by while you got a Gōketsu-style hair wash.

Although this may have been a subconscious reason. Whether it worked probably depends on how close Ami was to actually considering us family.

Edit:
Also, making Hazō angry at her would make him not want to continue acting in ways that would make her respect and like him.
Maybe those were the subconscious factors at play? Whenever we speak to her about this, I wonder if we should bring this part up... Just in case? Or is Ami not ready for that level of honesty?
 
"To this goal: Ami, I would like to introduce you to a Gōketsu family tradition for conflict resolution."

Free-Spirit Ami mentally rolled her eyes; the moment anyone formed a group they insisted on binding themselves with rules and restrictions and conventions. Didn't they realize that those things were nothing but handles and levers?

Analyst Ami mentally cocked her head in interest. Sometimes conventions allowed for faster information interchange and the restriction was an acceptable trade-off.

"And what might—"

Mari grabbed Ami's hair and slammed her face into the table

I saw it happening right before and it was still beautiful to see.


Ami was not a primary combatant but everyone in the room knew that Mari could not take her so easily without the advantage of surprise. Hazō would not even be a factor.
Also, I know Ami is highly competent and a Jonin to Hazou's chunin, but even for her it's pretty bold to assume a Sealmaster isn't relevant to the fight in his own house.

Lots of people also chimed in, and I support the whole "ignoring the sealmaster son of Jiraiya and student of Kagome on home turf is foolish oversight" thing. But also, even without seals, it's kind of dumb. You don't need to be a better combatant than someone to be significant to combat. You just need to be able to briefly draw their focus/be a threat/close options for your opponent's actions. In a relatively small and tight quarter, a half decent CQC fighter (who's also a summoner) would definitely fill that role. Which just goes back to other people's comments of "Ami character flaws, that's nice to see". Which I agree with. But I think part of it is that in her mind, Ami thinks emotional vulnerability =not dangerous, at least in a immediate pathway perspective for threat assessment. Which is very dumb, and hopefully a thing that can be fixed by her if that's the case.

For all Ami's talk about being offended at the idea of her not modeling people correctly, she sure didn't model this correctly. The tea pouring especially was a nice touch. I enjoyed that more than I thought I would.
The format (two shorter interludes back to back by both Vel and EJ) also was kind of a nice change of pace.
 
What color were her eyes?

Hazou better get the salt project going. It's going to take a lot to make a circle around the whole compound.


The same damage-mitigation that she uses when confronted with Ren, whom she loathes. Great to know we're in the same category, now. :/


Hazou's a sealmaster with several armor techniques... but I suppose those are secret. Still, Ami's discounting a sealmaster in his own home. Worse yet, Hazou was trained by Kagome, so you know Hazou's going to have safety measures that would make Jiraiya blink in surprise. Whatever trauma inflicted Ami with the motivation to become one of the youngest jonin on record also inflicted her with a critical case of arrogance. Earned arrogance, perhaps, considering that Ami was able to fight in the battle against Conjura and live, but arrogance is still a flaw.

---
Honestly, I fail to even understand why Ami even did what she did. Obviously it was on purpose, but if it was to pass along some secret message like Lal thinks, then why do so in the most deliberately cruel manner possible? To test for Hazou's reaction? To establish her own independence in their new working dynamic? Because it was a whim she decided to act on and then elected to double down when called out?

Ami is the most frustrating character (in a good way)! She's stunningly insightful, fun to hang around and enjoy leisure time with, devoted to one of our family members, seeks/desires understanding from Hazou, and is even open to working together for Uplift (albiet out of boredom, rather than belief, but still). But she's also completely out of touch with her own emotions, remarkably self-destructive (forced herself apart from Keiko), doesn't know how true family (those worth the title) interact, and is too damn proud to acknowledge when she's made a mistake!

I can't tell if Ami respects Hazou enough not to give a hollow apology, if Ami doesn't respect Hazou enough to care about his emotions, or if she respects Hazou and feels vulnerable for it and is lashing out as a result, if Ami doesn't respect Hazou and decided to stomp on his emotions on an idle whim, or if Ami respects Hazou but doesn't know how to show it and is defaulting to how she's treated her "friends" in the past!

  • The state and results of Keiko and Shikamaru's unprecedented pregnancy are likely clan secrets she either is only privy to due to being family or simply inferred. She made sure to leave before Snowflake and did it in a way which informed Hazou that that was the reason for a reason. If it turns out that the cause is Keiko discovering that she's pregnant instead of discovering that she isn't anymore she just forewarned Hazou of the impending geopolitical fustercluck making it a clan secret and invited him to work with her on managing it.
  • It confirmed the state of Hazou and Akane's relationship.
  • It gives Hazou direct experience with the emotions Keiko is having.
 
I wonder how Ami would've reacted if Hazou had been perceptive enough to say "Ami, I recognize that you're trying to tell me to be gentle with Snowflake since she's as new to her individuality as a newborn child is, but the manner in which you did so is abhorrent. Such cruel methods, however efficient they might be in delivering their message across the gap of qualia, cannot exist between you and I. I value my family too highly to be wholly rational when such methods are used, much as you would be if I had used your own love for Keiko in a similar manner. Please leave the Goketsu Compound, because I find myself desiring to say and do things in anger that will make our working relationship, going forward, more difficult than it needs to be. I will find you once I have calmed down sufficiently enough to have a conversation worthy of its participants."

It would've been a huge jump for Hazou to infer that Ami was priming him about Snowflake's situation imo. Keiko doesn't come around the Goketsu compound that often afterall. I don't blame Hazou for not realizing that Ami was fucking with him for an event in the near future. She fucks with his head all the time for fun.

I think we learned some pretty interesting things from Ami though. First is that Serious/Analytical Ami is not the default state, and can be used as a mask like any other mode. I thought that Serious Ami was Ami with the need for social pretenses removed, but that isn't the case. Removing emotionality and expression is still done to conform to social standards, it's just that those standards are different because we want to use Clear Communication Technique. I've been incorrectly modeling Ami as an emotionless psychopath that puts on different Ami's as masks, when really Ami is genuinely full of emotion. The smug, teasing, manipulative Ami is probably her natural and most comfortable self.

The second thing builds off this basis that she's a feeling, emotional being. Ami is strongly prideful, and while she can compartmentalize this enough to not effect different Ami's, it still guides her decision making. She probably thinks that she's the cleverest person in the Elemental Nations. I don't know where I was going with this except that I can probably model Ami better for all the good that'll do...
 
I don't agree with the thread's general take on what exactly is the crux of this conflict.

First, Ami did what she did for reasons she thinks would make sense both to her and to Hazou:
"Tell you what, how about I make it up to you with some amezaiku from my secret stash of Mist sweets? One for every reason that I did that, if you can guess them."
I would guess that these are:
  • To inform him about her plans.
  • To entertain herself by tricking Hazou.
  • To prime him for the incoming Snowflake interaction, either for a complex and specific reason like Lailoken is suggesting, or just to ensure he accepts her offer to spar.
  • (highly speculative) To nudge him onto particular train of thoughts regarding Akane and his relationship with her.
  • To deliberately put Hazou into a social situation in which someone makes a shocking claim to put him off-balance, to improve-by-practice his ability to deal with those things and recognize when those statements are false.
  • To deliberately put Hazou in a crisis situation where he is offended and defied to his face by someone powerful, in order to...
    • ... improve-by-practice his ability to deal with those things, and...
    • ... see how he would react, to improve her own model of him.
  • To establish by precedent that, allies or not, Hazou has no real control over her, either emotional or authority-based, and that she would and could defy him whenever she wants.
    • Naturally, stems from her control issues.
  • To improve Hazou's own mental model of her behaviour.
As you see, it's a lot. She gathers a ton of information, accomplishes multiple objectives, assuages her insecurities, and does Hazou a favour by teaching him. High-bandwidth communication! Amiazingly effective! She thinks interacting like this is great. She wishes everyone did this always.

She doesn't think Hazou is acting unreasonable because he didn't act like she predicted he would. She just, plainly, thinks he's unreasonable because he doesn't agree with her, that it's great to interact like this. She'd hoped he would agree, by now, with his casual disregard of other established societal truths, and was disappointed to see he continues to foolishly adhere to normie social norms.

It's not just Ami making a miscalculation and then refusing to admit it. She fervently believes that this Efficient Communication is how reasonable people should interact. It's an ideological conflict, a values conflict.

(Well, she did make a miscalculation, as Mari had demonstrated ("You need to understand that Hazō is not a lone actor. When you deal with him you are dealing with the Gōketsu"), but that's a whole separate issue.)
Hazou better get the salt project going. It's going to take a lot to make a circle around the whole compound.
Salt is against demons, not faeries. I recommend a circle of crude, unworked iron.
 
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(Well, she did make a miscalculation, as Mari had demonstrated ("You need to understand that Hazō is not a lone actor. When you deal with him you are dealing with the Gōketsu"), but that's a whole separate issue.)

There was another thing she didn't expect, wasn't it?

Hazō considered her for a moment. Strangely, he had deactivated the Iron Nerve, allowing her to see his true feelings...and there was no delight at her pain. The rage was gone, replaced by nothing more than acceptance, perhaps closure.

This reads to me as if she were surprised by Hazou's behavior here. Like she somehow thought he would revel in seeing her hurt because that's how she sees the world? I guess it'd be too much to hope that she would make the connection that Hazou is also hurt that someone who was on her way to become family would do this to him.

Maybe some recalibrating on both sides is needed but I wouldn't be too upset if Ami just turned into a rare encounter side character from now on either.
 
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This reads to me as if she were surprised by Hazou's behavior here. Like she somehow thought he would revel in seeing her hurt because that's how she sees the world? I guess it'd be too much to hope that she would make the connection that Hazou is also hurt that someone who was on her way to become family would do this to him.
I'd guess she pattern-matched this situation to her other experiences with powerful people forcing others to conform to their whims by brute force, and her first expectation was "Hazou is drunk on power and gleeful at inflicting it on her".
 
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E: There is now a suspiciously specific counter for "Female Mist Jonin whose heads got dunked into fluids in Leaf" as well.

We should invite Ren.

Hazō would not even be a factor.

This is true, but he could have been a Shadow clone, whose intended function is to be a sacrifice.

"Heh. Thanks. Sorry for this...you know how he is."

"I thought I did."

Also, I think Ami just run into the difference between Hazou and Hazou+Hivemind.

Fun times ahead.
 
"I see," Ami said. "I had believed he understood me better."

Our biggest handicap to counter our hivemind-ness is that we don't live in this world and aren't getting subtle impressions from actual people.

"Hazō," said Serious Ami, nodding without a smile. Hazō had proven unable to keep up with Effective Ami and Mari had made it clear that the boy was too emotional to be useful. Serious Ami could at least offer him the balm of social conformity, even if it was ridiculous and a waste of everyone's time. She still would not offer an apology, of course.

Ahaha that's not a good category to be placed in. I feel a sudden urge to imitate Orochimaru and get so strong it no longer matters that we're so hopelessly lost here. Do actually people actually think like this? Did growing up middle class mean I missed out on a boatload of etiquette training?

Hazō was standing on the far side of the heavy oak monstrosity that was the Gōketsu dining room table. The desired seating arrangement was clear; Mari at the head of the table to moderate, Hazō to her left and Ami to her right. The messaging was interesting; the room was lit with candles instead of those lantern seals with the pompous name. The table settings were black-varnished wooden chopsticks and bone-handled soup spoons on ivory rests. Serviceable, no ornamentation. The kind of thing one might see at a midscale restaurant; they looked out of place in the large stone room with its elegant wall hangings that showed landscapes on the east and west walls and the Gōketsu crest on the north. Mari might as well have whispered in her ear: We care little about appearances and more about effectiveness, yet this situation is significant enough that we have to spend time on this conversation.

Each placemat had a storage seal at the center, another at the top, and a third just beyond that. Presumably each contained a single course and the seals would keep them hot or cold until the diner was ready. We are a major clan with significant resources. It is inefficient to annoy the head of a major clan, or to reveal that you think he's slow. Normies still put stock in social niceties even though they're stupid and a waste of time.

Also if this is how jonin think no wonder Shikaku seriously considered us as potential masterminds. This is going to get more prevalent as we get stronger, but Ami's ascribing higher level moves to something we'd think nothing of. Which means we probably need to consider it in the future. Sigh.

Also omg Ami got so played. She's been built up so much as this hyper-competent social-spec that it's kind of incredible that Mari made her see exactly what Mari wanted her to and she suspected nothing.

Hazō considered her for a moment. Strangely, he had deactivated the Iron Nerve, allowing her to see his true feelings...and there was no delight at her pain. The rage was gone, replaced by nothing more than acceptance, perhaps closure.

"Get out," he said calmly.

Danger-Mitigation Ami studied him for a moment and then turned and left. Neither of the others moved. I am confident enough in your good sense that I feel no need to ensure you do nothing inappropriate on your way out.
Ami is such a hypocrite if she allows this to harm our relationship with her past the immediate future - especially with the reasoning Mari gave. She does not get to start a rumor about pregnancies and then disrespect us to our face and expect us to accept it because it mildly benefits us through benefitting her, and then allow our response, which we kept private, to ruin all this.

I would expect a period of hostility/distance for a month or two, but we've made plenty of mistakes (@killbox 1 and 2, Naruto), so we should avoid being like Naruto and actually forgive her instead of letting this . Even if we hate when she does this, it's good for us - imagine if an enemy does this to us one day.

On the plus side, we now know Ami can't model Hazo perfectly.

(Side note - I really don't like having to do this, but given that Ami's a foreign ninja who we don't really have power over, appearances have to be maintained I guess. To be fair, since we do our best as being respectful, we're not like the hypothetical clan heads who are assholes and still demand obsequiousness.)

Also, Mari's kind of terrifying. Probably in the top 10/20 people in Leaf even if she isn't actively training. Since she's not an active jonin, we don't see her as much, and it feels a little weird to be the clan head and person-in-control when she's a jonin 10 years older than us. I'm sure we're interacting with her at home fairly often and she has strong emotional bonds at this point, but I kind of wonder what her perspective is. Does she get any benefit out of helping us - like does she enjoy it, or love us, or is otherwise bored, or is doing this to prevent what happened to her?

[X] Mari Interlude
- unfortunately voting is closed, I believe?
 
On a completely separate note, we should probably start talking about Mari's birthday.

Which is just over 2 months from now.
We should honestly make project teams. We have to deal with birthdays, Ami, getting the wedding approved, Dogs sidequests, seals for Asuma/researching, and figuring out how not to get stomped by a jonin when we can't use anything lethal.

I think we should shelve Dogs, Ami, and seals for now, focus on the wedding and the fight, and start birthday brainstorming after we don't have an impending crisis. We're going to ruin the goodwill we just built up with Asuma if we can't get the wedding through.
 
[...] imagine if an enemy does this to us one day.

Does what, exactly?

An enemy would not have gotten such a response from Hazou, nor would they have gotten as close to him as Ami has.

It is precisely because Hazou doesn't see her as an enemy that it hurt him so much.

And really, can you blame him? He didn't have much of a family in Mist so he found one in his team before they even got adopted. Ami was offered the same and she basically crapped all over that idea by pulling this stupid stunt of hers.
 
And really, can you blame him? He didn't have much of a family in Mist so he found one in his team before they even got adopted. Ami was offered the same and she basically crapped all over that idea by pulling this stupid stunt of hers.
Which of course was part of the point of it. I think we should tell her at some point that we realize this was one of her goals. I'm not sure if she even realizes that that's what she was trying to do, so if we come out and force her to confront that fact we may be able to force her to do some introspection and character development.
 
I would expect a period of hostility/distance for a month or two, but we've made plenty of mistakes (@killbox 1 and 2, Naruto), so we should avoid being like Naruto and actually forgive her instead of letting this . Even if we hate when she does this, it's good for us - imagine if an enemy does this to us one day.

Unless Ami holds a grudge, they should be able to talk it out as soon as we put an action plan together. EJ mentioned on discord that seeing Ami beaten up by Mari was both enough to vent whatever anger Hazou might've felt, and was enough that we could even say Hazou is now feeling sympathetic towards Ami.

Also, Mari's kind of terrifying.

Bored-Mari is badass. Heartbreaker-Mari is scary. Mamma-Bear-Mari is flee-on-sight levels of terrifying.

I'd forgotten that Mari was that dangerous, and I'm pleasantly surprised by the reminder ^.^
 
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Does what, exactly?

An enemy would not have gotten such a response from Hazou, nor would they have gotten as close to him as Ami has.

It is precisely because Hazou doesn't see her as an enemy that it hurt him so much.

And really, can you blame him? He didn't have much of a family in Mist so he found one in his team before they even got adopted. Ami was offered the same and she basically crapped all over that idea by pulling this stupid stunt of hers.
While it hurt because Ami was close to us, she also didn't do it maliciously. An enemy would - it's not a perfect comparison, but I'm essentially equating them. We don't seem to be very good against psychological attacks, especially given how riled up we are over the Hagoromo. There's something to be said for keeping emotions hidden and then launching an attack rather than telegraphing it.
 
And really, can you blame him? He didn't have much of a family in Mist so he found one in his team before they even got adopted. Ami was offered the same and she basically crapped all over that idea by pulling this stupid stunt of hers.
Mm, incidentally, I confess I'm a bit confused why Ami's latest stunt is perceived as quite so problematic. Making Hazou half-believe for like twelve seconds that Akane is pregnant seems like usual MfD messing around, the kind of thing Mari and Jiraiya pulled on Hazou/Noburi/Keiko/Akane and HNKA pulled on each other (and is exaclty the sort of thing Shiori does constantly, though I guess none of her usual victims are involved). The fact that it was semi-public makes it more problematic, but it doesn't seem to be the crux of it. Publicly defying Hazou's order to his face was the worst part, I'd say, but the grave offence came before that. What am I missing?
 
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Mm, incidentally, I confess I'm a bit confused why Ami's latest stunt is perceived as quite so problematic. Making Hazou half-believe for like twelve seconds that Akane is pregnant seems like usual MfD messing around, kind of thing Mari and Jiraiya pulled on Hazou/Noburi/Keiko/Akane and HNKA pulled on each other. The fact that it was semi-public made it more problematic, but it doesn't seem to be the crux of it. Publicly defying Hazou's order to his face is the worst part, I'd say, but the offence came before that. What am I missing?
It's mostly that it's real now. Hazou and Akane are together, were together, and Ami exploited her knowledge of Hazou's relationship (which he didn't voluntarily give to Ami, but she deduced on her own) to make Hazou think that Akane was pregnant (ninja pregnancies are difficult) with his child (bloodline pregnancies even more so).

Ami did it, not out of a teasing joke to practice safe intimacy (a concern rooted in care for both parties involved in the relationship), but as a political ploy without Hazou or Akane's permission. Worse, this drags Akane's name through the mud since said hypothetical lovechild would be out of wedlock.

Now, even if they openly date, it'll confirm the rumors in some people's minds ("oh, she might not be pregnant now, but there has to be a reason for the rumor. 'where there's smoke, there's fire.' Maybe she lied to the Clan Lord about her pregnancy in order to tie an honorable lord down and uplift herself in the process?"). Now, if Hazou and Akane ever get married, people will say it's just because Akane "got herself knocked up," or because "Hazou was duped," rather than the obvious love and respect that they have for each other.

On top of it all, when Hazou calls her out on it, Ami refuses to apologize and then flounces her relative strength in Hazou's face ("I refuse to leave and you literally cannot force me to leave") in the way that she complains of other people doing to her.

(There's more nuance, but I'm about to clock in, and I think this is an a decent summary)
 
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It's mostly that it's real now. Hazou and Akane are together, were together, and Ami exploited her knowledge of Hazou's relationship to make him think that Akane was pregnant (ninja pregnancies are difficult) with his child (bloodline pregnancies even more so).

She did it, not out of a teasing joke to practice safe intimacy (a concern rooted in care for both parties involved in the relationship), but as a political ploy without Hazou or Akane's permission. Worse, this drags Akane's name through the mud since said hypothetical lovechild would be out of wedlock.
Ah, I suppose I missed the implication that she was planning to spread it around when returning to Mist. And yes, I realized the impact was amplified by Hazou's elevated background levels of anxiety and emotional vulnerability regarding his relationship developments, but that didn't seem like enough.
I don't actually see where the context matches up in the previous examples.
Well, using the same standards we're applying to Ami's behaviour now, we have Mari gaslighting Noburi into believing that Hazou and Keiko are in a sexual relationship, Jiraiya embarrassing Keiko in front of her friends by implying she had sex with Rock Lee and is pregnant with his child, and Keiko consistently damaging Hazou's self-image by implying he is some kind of sexual creep. It doesn't quite match up, but seems to me in the same ballpack.
 
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