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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Cariyaga said:
I do find it funny how opposed y'all are to being maneuvered to our advantage when we did the same to Akane last event, though. :p
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I don't really follow. We didn't do the EM gambit for Akane's benefit. In fact, she took a very serious risk in the process of executing the plan, and gained little in return.

We also very explicitly asked for her help, and were ready to take no for an answer.

Not to mention the fact that Shikamaru is, above all, maneuvering us to his advantage, making us shoulder all the risk while guaranteeing himself the top spot.
 
Roomba said:
It's not a deal, it's pure coercion.
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Yeah, that's the idea? You can coerce people into doing mutually beneficial things; this is not necessarily evil, assuming you're working from any vaguely consequentialist framework.

(Incidentally, I was just listening to the start of Hero of Ages where one of the main characters does basically this.)

Roomba said:
He opens the conversation with telling us we have no hope in round 2 because ISC are going to do their utmost to undermine us.
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Well, more like pointing out the obvious fact that we legitimately don't have much hope to win, and he's offering us (a better chance at) an out, while committing to mutually defect if we spurn the offer and wreck them anyway. This effectively lessens the variance for us (removes possibility of wild success) but somewhat improves our lot in expectation. Winning the tournament would be better than the consolation prize of merely kicking ass now and then being sent home. That was always ever a silver-lining to an otherwise likely and inglorious defeat.

This isn't exactly iterated prisoner's dilemma (we act out of turn and have to trust them to follow up, choices aren't binary, etc), but it has a similar structure and the payoffs are ordered the same before Nara's offer; i.e. DC > CC > DD > CD and vice versa. He effectively states that DC is not an option, reminds us that trying for CD would be insanely stupid in the long run, and commits to making CC more appealing while making DD hella costly, even if we manage to win now.

ISC is sending a clear and simple message here: "You're not going to roll over us without consequences, either now or in the long run. We're more than willing to play ball though, and give you every shot in a fair game."

Are you really so offended that they won't just roll over and let us steamroll them?

Roomba said:
Then he has the gall to threaten us with high level political consequences if we don't agree to "cooperate" with him.
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That ego. Crucify it.
 
Cariyaga said:
...What did you mean by "take out", then?
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*looks at the Sunday update and us nonlethally disabling most opponents with Goo bombs and pepper spray*

We clearly have the means to nonviolently capture hostile targets.

Of course visiting any kind of consequences on them is unacceptable. This is just a quid pro quois.
 
Adept_Woodwright said:
Suggestion: come up with an alternate strategy to counter with. Signal Keiko to come over to listen along with Shikamaru.

I'm fine working with him, but we can't just roll over and take on all of the work. That's the line we need to draw. There are equally viable alternatives that work out just as well, that require slightly more work for Shikamaru, but much less risk to us. This may also have been a negotiation ploy to start with extremely high terms, so the agreed upon middle-solution is more palatable to both parties.
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Yes, but there's no vote open. As things stand, we're accepting the deal and the story moves forward.

Now you could get upset about that and raise a petition in the thread about canceling that plan and having a vote instead. But- Personally, I trust the QMs and am willing to see where they're taking this. I trust that if this really was a crucial, screw-it-up-and-lose decision point then they would have stopped and had a vote. So let's see where things stand where we actually get to a vote.

Possibly we're going to get chumped and taken out before the next round ends, so playing back-and-forth negotiation would be a waste of everyone's time.
 
Roomba said:
I don't really follow. We didn't do the EM gambit for Akane's benefit. In fact, she took a very serious risk in the process of executing the plan, and gained little in return.

We also very explicitly asked for her help, and were ready to take no for an answer.

Not to mention the fact that Shikamaru is, above all, maneuvering us to his advantage, making us shoulder all the risk while guaranteeing himself the top spot.
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The EM gambit benefited Akane just as much as us, while she shouldered the risk, exactly as Shikamaru's plan does.
 
Roomba said:
Not to mention the fact that Shikamaru is, above all, maneuvering us to his advantage, making us shoulder all the risk while guaranteeing himself the top spot.
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He's maneuvering us to mutual advantage. Hell, his plan only works in terms of preventing betrayal because everyone who knowingly participates in it benefits if it succeeds. The fact that he's doing it in a way that forces us to act according to his plan rather than our own may be galling to some people here, but that doesn't mean it's not advantageous for us to follow it. He's not really wrong. Us going on a successful rampage this round helps Jiraiya, but not nearly as much as doing so and getting to the tournament on top of it. He's given us a route to the tournament, and all we have to do is go along with it. So what if he and his team get the top spot? That's still good for us, because their clans are part of our political bloc - if they do well, that gives our political bloc more influence back in Leaf.
 
Actually, if we successfully pain train in this round, a viable strategy is for all of Nara's current team to just eff off, come to our base, and help us defend it / stage capture missions

ISC+Co: 300 - (at most, if they are still healthy and unjailed) 330, = -30 pts, if all their teammates are taken out / jailed

Other Blue teams: -300 + 185, at most. -115 total

Other Red Teams: -495 + 140, at most. -355 total

Us: 185 + 50 = 235
(350 over other blue teams)

We would need 50-70 pts to be sure to advance. If ISC fails to get that many prisoners from people attacking us, the reds can willingly step into our cells. If nobody attacks and no capture missions are successful, two from each red team can step into a cell

ISC+Co: 300 - 390 = -90, if all other teammates are taken out/jailed, and two of each team is jailed but uninjured. ISC still has to win, but his friendly teams may only get 25 pts. Might need a method that is more of a shoe in for those allies.
 
To be clear:

Obviously 100% on board with Shikamarus plan. The plan is solid and we personally only stand to gain from it, assuming he is genuine.


HOWEVER

To not respond to the absolutely abysmal way that this was communicated to us, as well as the particular card in his hand hes using to force us to comply, would set a dangerous precedent. This is unacceptable. I do not want fhe Shikamaru or heavens forbid the Nara to think that we will fold at the first hint of wavering support, regardless of how shallow the threat may be.
 
MMKII said:
*looks at the Sunday update and us nonlethally disabling most opponents with Goo bombs and pepper spray*

We clearly have the means to nonviolently capture hostile targets.

Of course visiting any kind of consequences on them is unacceptable. This is just a quid pro quois.
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MMKII said:
To not respond to the absolutely abysmal way that this was communicated to us, as well as the particular card in his hand hes using to force us to comply, would set a dangerous precedent. This is unacceptable. I do not want fhe Shikamaru or heavens forbid the Nara to think that we will fold at the first hint of wavering support, regardless of how shallow the threat may be.
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So your plan to handle this is to...engage in acts of violence against them.
 
MMKII said:
This is unacceptable.
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I disagree. This is fine.

They have their hand and their leverage and we have ours. We can be honest about it or play silly games where we don't say it but leave it implied.

The former takes less effort and leaves less room for misunderstanding.
 
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I think it is reasonable to assume, given out past experience with the QMs, that even if there is no explicit vote, there is opportunity for us to sway the outcome through discussion. We are the hivemind subconscious. Keiko might divine one of the many things that arises from discussion, and offer it as a countermeasure, or Hazo might come up with a rebuttal. He hasn't explicitly accepted, yet.
 
MMKII said:
To not respond to the absolutely abysmal way that this was communicated to us, as well as the particular card in his hand hes using to force us to comply, would set a dangerous precedent. This is unacceptable. I do not want fhe Shikamaru or heavens forbid the Nara to think that we will fold at the first hint of wavering support, regardless of how shallow the threat may be.
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That's rich. How many times during this Exam has Hazou tried to leverage the political position of his family to get what he wants? Yet it suddenly becomes a dangerous precedent when someone else does it.
 
Honestly, the method of delivery almost certainly was for the peanut gallery (our six teammates) rather than for us. If we tried to be trite over this, he'd see us as being petty and stupid. If it had just been us, he'd likely have been significantly more polite in his delivery.

Briefvoice said:
That's rich. How many times during this Exam has Hazou tried to leverage the political position of his family to get what he wants? Yet it suddenly becomes a dangerous precedent when someone else does it.
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And this is Shikamaru leveraging his position to get what everyone here wants, not just him.
 
MMKII said:
To be clear:

Obviously 100% on board with Shikamarus plan. The plan is solid and we personally only stand to gain from it, assuming he is genuine.


HOWEVER

To not respond to the absolutely abysmal way that this was communicated to us, as well as the particular card in his hand hes using to force us to comply, would set a dangerous precedent. This is unacceptable. I do not want fhe Shikamaru or heavens forbid the Nara to think that we will fold at the first hint of wavering support, regardless of how shallow the threat may be.
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Okay, we are on the same page here, if not the exact line and word.

If we get a chance to talk to him, it should go like this:
"
The trade is good. More than fair, even. We are grateful for it.

But did he have to lead with the nuclear threat? We've been good to them throughout the exam, and we thought we had a closer friendship than that.
"
 
Also, I'm gonna remind people that Shikamaru bailed our ass out of the fire in the last event by giving us as much intel as he did, entirely because we used the political motives of his clan to goad him into action. Frankly, him doing this is entirely fair considering that.

Immortal Lurker said:
Okay, we are on the same page here, if not the exact line and word.

If we get a chance to talk to him, it should go like this:
"
The trade is good. More than fair, even. We are grateful for it.

But did he have to lead with the nuclear threat? We've been good to them throughout the exam, and we thought we had a closer friendship than that.
"
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Again, I'm like 90% sure it was for the peanut gallery to force them to be on board. Like how we intimidated them to not betray us just one update ago. He probably thinks we're smart enough to understand that.
 
Immortal Lurker said:
Okay, we are on the same page here, if not the exact line and word.

If we get a chance to talk to him, it should go like this:
"
The trade is good. More than fair, even. We are grateful for it.

But did he have to lead with the nuclear threat? We've been good to them throughout the exam, and we thought we had a closer friendship than that.
"
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Yes. He did. We weren't the only ones there.
 
faflec said:
So your plan to handle this is to...engage in acts of violence against them.
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I dont really percieve this as violence against them if we leave their score unharmed.We dont even hurt them ,much, anyways.

Just as this is apparently okay to threaten to us with to gain leverage in the exams.

Hes clearly engaging in combat here, just of the silver tongued variety.

We have put our foot in our mouth over less and come out far worse for wear than some goo in our hair.

Perhaps you are right though, and this tactic, while suitable , is a bit too aggressive. Im open to other suggestions as to how we remedy this issue.
Briefvoice said:
That's rich. How many times during this Exam has Hazou tried to leverage the political position of his family to get what he wants? Yet it suddenly becomes a dangerous precedent when someone else does it.
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Doing this to faceless Mist ANBU is fine. Doing this to remind Leaf genin that there are incentives politically for teamwork is fine.

This is not what hes doing. Hes not chuckling and mouthing "The Hokage is my father and my aunt is your boss!" to random Mook #3 that we have no reason to care about, to remind them to not cheat aggressively for their own side in a contest that is supposed to be impartial.

Hes threatening to knock down the house of cards over something that we would have went along with anyway. This is unneeded, and one does not treat allies im this manner.

So I see your comparison as innacurate, at least in the context of my point.
 
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Suggestion: we don't want to sit here hashing out a full strategy and wasting time while the pain clock is ticking.

Say: We agree that we will bring as many red team prisoners here as feasible, and will leave your documents alone. We will want to discuss the particulars of strategy for Round 2 once we know what we're dealing with at the end of our assault. You mentioned you know who is on Blue teams, care to share?
 
Can we get a temperature reading WRT ISC's deal, and how it was handled?

[X] Poll (Affect): Positive
[] Poll (Affect): Negative
[] Poll (Affect): Mixed/Neutral

[X] Poll (Agreement): For
[] Poll (Agreement): Against
[] Poll (Agreement): Undecided
Adhoc vote count started by Vecht on Jul 17, 2018 at 9:19 PM, finished with 6770 posts and 44 votes.
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[X] Poll (Affect): Positive
[X] Poll (Agreement): For

I'm probably letting my appreciation of Shikamaru as a character color my perception, but I think this was handled well and in character.

I think the immediate plan should follow more or less in line with what Shikamaru wants, and that we can still progress with appreciable confidence in going to the finals without taking down this particular blue team.

I think there is room to improve the Round 2 strategy so it is not as risky to our team, but that is a detail that can wait until after the pain train.
 
Honestly, his plan's alright, he just doesn't have enough skin in the game. My suggestion to make that the case would be to demand that instead of falling into the goo bomb, his team backstabs the red coalition.

Then let him talk us down to "use jutsu from within the goo bomb", since neither he nor Ino need mobility to use their techniques.
 
MMKII said:
I dont really percieve this as violence against them if we leave their score unharmed.We dont even hurt them ,much, anyways.
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If I threw a tear gas grenade at you would you consider that violent enough?
Cariyaga said:
Honestly, his plan's alright, he just doesn't have enough skin in the game. My suggestion to make that the case would be to demand that instead of falling into the goo bomb, his team backstabs the red coalition.

Then let him talk us down to "use jutsu from within the goo bomb", since neither he nor Ino need mobility to use their techniques.
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No, Shikamaru would be overtly backstabbing the coalition by doing that, which is something he's trying to avoid doing. He says it himself, he doesn't want his clan's reputation to get fucked by backstabbing.
 
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