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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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MadScientist said:
I think it would help vastly less than making the Gouketsu look powerful by dominating the exam through psychological warfare. An alliance with Jiraiya is much tastier if Jiraiya's clan is powerful.
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You're not going to dominate the exam by getting one Mist team to quit by abusing what is currently completely OOC knowledge. You dominate the exam by having a large Goketsu and Leaf presence in the tournament. And we're already trying to do this, so the realization doesn't change anything for us.

One of the benefits of the diplomatic approach is that it's largely independent of our exam performance, one doesn't affect the other. We'll have to interact with our clans either way, so it's just a question of what the optimal strategy is. I don't think the maximally passive one is it, but we have a wide spectrum of choices available.
 
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Roomba said:
One of the benefits of the diplomatic strategy is that it's largely independent of our exam performance, one doesn't affect the other. We'll have to interact with our clans either way, so it's just a question of what the optimal strategy is. I don't think the maximally passive one is it, but we have a wide spectrum of choices available.
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And one of the drawbacks is also that it's independent of our exam performance, which means we have to balance the time we spend for the Exams with the time we spend on diplomacy. And apart from the tournament I don't think Mist will have lengthy periods in between any two Events.
 
Roomba said:
You're not going to dominate the exam by getting one Mist team to quit by abusing what is currently completely OOC knowledge.
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That's not my plan?

I want to get Hazou to trick loads of teams into juggling so many plots that no one understands what's going on around them and teams start maiming each other and framing each other in their stressed out panic until everything comes crashing down in a beautiful unsustainable trainwreck.

And also get pangolin psy-ops specs to mess with the heads of the strong contestants so they hopefully quit, or at least can't properly threaten us while we take advantage of the chaos.
 
The person most likely to both:
A. Know what's really going on
B. Have limited enough resources that needing Hazou's help would be plausible

is Hana. She probably has a pretty good grasp of the politics, but she has no power base or allies. She can be presumed to be putting Hazou's best interests (as she sees them) above everything else. Therefore coordinating with Hana is likely to yield best results.
 
faflec said:
I'm generally against the "mastermind" approach due to our lowish Social skills, which means we'd get bamboozled easily by any of the real shakers and movers (clan heads, Kage, important clanless ninjas...) but we could try and influence some of the weaker rabble who have lower Social abilities. It's just a matter of deciding on an approach, and ensuring that our plans don't fuck with Jiraiya's (read: we talk with him).

Also need to make sure this doesn't mess with our Exam performance, which means anything we do ought to have a direct benefit wrt the Exams.
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Here is a novel idea. Why don't we ask Jiraya "Hey, so you know how half of Leaf hates us for being ex-missing nin? And how the other half would cheerfully stab us in the back if it got them political points? And how you won't be a Hokage in one-two months, depending on how long exam takes? Yeah, so, do you have that already handled with a plot that is already in progress or should we start thinking of ways to not die after you stop being Hokage?"
 
MadScientist said:
That's not my plan?

I want to get Hazou to trick loads of teams into juggling so many plots that no one understands what's going on around them and teams start maiming each other and framing each other in their stressed out panic until everything comes crashing down in a beautiful unsustainable trainwreck.

And also get pangolin psy-ops specs to mess with the heads of the strong contestants so they hopefully quit, or at least can't properly threaten us while we take advantage of the chaos.
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Could you attempt to turn this into something more concrete? You've been pushing this psychological warfare business for a while, and I understand the appeal, but it's all been rather vague on what specific actions Hazou could take to make it happen. Here are the main hurdles as I see them:

1. First, the teams don't actually appear to be talking to each other much. There haven't really been opportunities for socialization so far. So what are your ideas on:

a. How do we find other teams?
b. How do we get them to talk to Hazou rather than walk away or in the worst case mug him for his word-half?
c. How much time will this take and when would you like to make it happen?

2. I'm still unclear on what you actually want to say to them to "mess with their heads". Can you write out sorts of things you would like to say?

3. You keep bringing up this pangolin psy-ops business, but how exactly would this hypothetical pangolin interact with the other contestants? During what opportunities would it have to talk to them or leave them messages and what sorts of things would it say?
 
Briefvoice said:
The person most likely to both:
A. Know what's really going on
B. Have limited enough resources that needing Hazou's help would be plausible

is Hana. She probably has a pretty good grasp of the politics, but she has no power base or allies. She can be presumed to be putting Hazou's best interests (as she sees them) above everything else. Therefore coordinating with Hana is likely to yield best results.
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I mean...wouldn't Jiraiya be a better fit due to not having to worry about Mist spies listening in?
 
faflec said:
I mean...wouldn't Jiraiya be a better fit due to not having to worry about Mist spies listening in?
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Jiraiya, the guy who once had to throw Hazou into a murder box because he opened his mouth when he shouldn't have? Jiriaya, who heard the story about exactly what happened with Minami?

If I were Jiraiya, I'd pat Hazou on the head and tell him to keep making friends with other Leaf genin, that's the best thing that he can be doing. But I wouldn't tell him a fucking thing about my plans.
 
Briefvoice said:
The person most likely to both:
A. Know what's really going on
B. Have limited enough resources that needing Hazou's help would be plausible

is Hana. She probably has a pretty good grasp of the politics, but she has no power base or allies. She can be presumed to be putting Hazou's best interests (as she sees them) above everything else. Therefore coordinating with Hana is likely to yield best results.
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Another person we should spend time trying to influence is Ami. We can exploit our relationship with Kei to try to turn into an asset to get information from and exert influence on Mist politics
 
Briefvoice said:
Jiraiya, the guy who once had to throw Hazou into a murder box because he opened his mouth when he shouldn't have? Jiriaya, who heard the story about exactly what happened with Minami?

If I were Jiraiya, I'd pat Hazou on the head and tell him to keep making friends with other Leaf genin, that's the best thing that he can be doing. But I wouldn't tell him a fucking thing about my plans.
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100% agree with this. If we go to Jiraiya to approve of our plotting he will just tell us to be good soldiers and not bother thinking for ourselves. He then will lose the hat and probably get the elemental nations engulfed in war. If we want to make moves we have to suck it up and make moves. We should try to talk to him and figure out what's going on but with the knowledge that he isn't actually going to be working with us
 
Oneiros said:
100% agree with this. If we go to Jiraiya to approve of our plotting he will just tell us to be good soldiers and not bother thinking for ourselves. He then will lose the hat and probably get the elemental nations engulfed in war. If we want to make moves we have to suck it up and make moves. We should try to talk to him and figure out what's going on but with the knowledge that he isn't actually going to be working with us
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Probably said it in the wrong way, but my plan was less "do whatever Jiraiya says" and more of "give Jiraiya a list of things we could do, see if any of them fuck with his plans".
 
faflec said:
And one of the drawbacks is also that it's independent of our exam performance, which means we have to balance the time we spend for the Exams with the time we spend on diplomacy. And apart from the tournament I don't think Mist will have lengthy periods in between any two Events.
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I think we're talking about different things here. I'm not focused on the other exam participants. Sure, talking to them will provide us with valuable info, and their good will won't hurt, but they're small fry.

The real opportunity will be when we're waiting for the exam, and our clans approach us in a more official manner. We'll get to talk to someone with actual decision-making power, especially Hazou, given his position as clan-heir-in-exile.

MadScientist said:
That's not my plan?

I want to get Hazou to trick loads of teams into juggling so many plots that no one understands what's going on around them and teams start maiming each other and framing each other in their stressed out panic until everything comes crashing down in a beautiful unsustainable trainwreck.

And also get pangolin psy-ops specs to mess with the heads of the strong contestants so they hopefully quit, or at least can't properly threaten us while we take advantage of the chaos.
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I'm going to echo @Briefvoice here. At first glance, this seems incredibly difficult to me, much more so than just winning the tournament via punching. Going to need more details.

Briefvoice said:
The person most likely to both:
A. Know what's really going on
B. Have limited enough resources that needing Hazou's help would be plausible

is Hana. She probably has a pretty good grasp of the politics, but she has no power base or allies. She can be presumed to be putting Hazou's best interests (as she sees them) above everything else. Therefore coordinating with Hana is likely to yield best results.
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I absolutely agree we need to talk to Hana about our future interactions with the Kurosawa. That said, I'd be careful about revealing our intentions completely. Hana will prioritize Hazou's best interests, as she sees them, but that could be very different from helping Jiraiya or Ren. From her perspective, Hazou should stay safe first and foremost.
 
Briefvoice said:
Could you attempt to turn this into something more concrete?
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Sure! :)

Briefvoice said:
a. How do we find other teams?
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Ask Neji where they are? Or a recon Pangolin? Shouldn't be that hard to track people down using sensors.

Briefvoice said:
b. How do we get them to talk to Hazou rather than walk away or in the worst case mug him for his word-half?
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Liberal application of his high Deceit skill.
  • HAZOU: (henged as proctor, approaches Mist team) I'm not allowed to say specific things in regards to how you should behave in the exam. However, I am allowed to inform you that that Kumo team over there (points) are getting mighty friendly with the Gouketsu traitors and they're currently on track to reach the tournament. That is all, do with this information as you wish.
  • HAZOU: ("nervously", speaking to a girl from his academy class and acting like he has a crush) So! Um! Err! I-err... I found this Iwa team that's fairly injured from the second exam, but m-my teammates got pretty beat up themselves... I don'tsupposeyou'dhelpmetakethem? (proceeds to run from the fight the moment it starts, cackling internally, leaving the girl's team in a fight they're hopelessly outclassed in)
  • HAZOU: (henged as an Iwa nin) Got some intel for you Grass nin chumps, but it'll cost you. (negotiates payment) Alright, listen good cause I'm only saying this once. Know that Rain team led by the tall girl with earrings? They're taking out their close rivals, and that means you. Some of my buddies in Earth are willing to help you out, for a price. Or you can take your chances with Rain. Up to you. (phrased in a way that makes them want to take their chances plotting against the Rain team themselves)
  • Etc.
Briefvoice said:
c. How much time will this take and when would you like to make it happen?
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Ideally, we should be setting things up whenever we don't have other pressing objectives. Maybe devote 50% of our "downtime" (insomuch as we have it) to this stuff.

Briefvoice said:
2. I'm still unclear on what you actually want to say to them to "mess with their heads". Can you write out sorts of things you would like to say?
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This is for the pangolins vs strong candidates, yes? I'm imagining stuff like Panashe breaking into their rooms and moving stuff around to make them feel unsafe, interrogators cornering teams in areas without other people around and going all "that university debate against a CIA interrogator that made a student crack completely and become the unobomber" on them (possibly accompanied by other pangolins and/or Kei as guards), and possibly other stuff (but I'd have to research irl psy-ops to get a good idea of how stuff like this might be done).

Briefvoice said:
3. You keep bringing up this pangolin psy-ops business, but how exactly would this hypothetical pangolin interact with the other contestants? During what opportunities would it have to talk to them or leave them messages and what sorts of things would it say?
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I guess I already answered this stuff in 2? But mainly, we'd want to corner the teams/candidates when they're relatively isolated.

The main reason I've been fairly vague so far is that the first hurdle is injecting the general strategy into the thread's consciousness. Details are mostly useless until an idea gets at least a little steam, I've found. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
I give 70% odds that Hazou's offered an arranged marriage into the Kurosawa clan to bind Mist and Leaf together.
 
Hazou becoming a resident of Mist would make it much harder for us to influence stuff from inside Leaf. But also allow us to influence stuff from inside Mist while we get Noburi to work from the Leaf side. I can see advantages to both.
 
Oneiros said:
100% agree with this. If we go to Jiraiya to approve of our plotting he will just tell us to be good soldiers and not bother thinking for ourselves. He then will lose the hat and probably get the elemental nations engulfed in war. If we want to make moves we have to suck it up and make moves. We should try to talk to him and figure out what's going on but with the knowledge that he isn't actually going to be working with us
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This game is supposed to be simulationist, meaning this is not true.
 
MadScientist said:
Hazou becoming a resident of Mist would make it much harder for us to influence stuff from inside Leaf. But also allow us to influence stuff from inside Mist while we get Noburi to work from the Leaf side. I can see advantages to both.
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Oh, sorry. I didn't mean "marry into" in that context. They'd obviously come to Konoha -- taking one of the members of a very small clan is no-go.
 
Cariyaga said:
Oh, sorry. I didn't mean "marry into" in that context. They'd obviously come to Konoha -- taking one of the members of a very small clan is no-go.
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Disagree the Kurosawa would want to bring Hazō in to make him a puppet clan head. Taking our potential bride to Konoha is much less valuable than having political influence in both mist and leaf
 
Cariyaga said:
Oh, sorry. I didn't mean "marry into" in that context. They'd obviously come to Konoha -- taking one of the members of a very small clan is no-go.
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Hmn. Honestly, it's already a mess as to what surnames Kei/Shikamaru's kids are going to take (the eldest needs to be pure Nara because clan heir, but the others might be one or the other or both for two clan library cards -- the eldest will be so jealous). That's only with the parents being in different clans. Get villages added to the problem and things look like a jenga tower waiting to collapse.
 
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