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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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PurposefulZephyr said:
Does Wakahisa bloodline have any long term side effects, or dangers similar to Mori's Frozen Skein?
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Not that Noburi knows of.

Winged_One said:
I keep losing the current proposed rules. Can we edit them into one of the first posts on the thread so they are pinned?
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Done.

Winged_One said:
I am also fairly confident that makes every jonin only differ in specialisation post base level 60-ish.
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Why do you think that?

My expectation is that people would have:

Primary: Alertness, Athletics, <combat skill or Sealing or MedNin>
Secondary: Combat skill if not primary, maybe Endurance, maybe socials, maybe Sealing, maybe MedNin
Tertiary: Endurance if it's not secondary, socials if not secondary, maybe Sealing/MedNin
 
ting said:
I'd guess that in certain extremely rare cases characters could break the mold (at a price). In Lee's case you could maybe say all his skills cost 1.25X the normal rate but he has no specialisation limit for physical skills. Under those rules Lee will never be a well rounded ninja, and will be completely unfit for any missions where he doesn't have teammates to cover for the holes in his skillset (awareness comes to mind). BUT he will still come through as the Taijutsu monster he's supposed to be. As I said though this kind of exception would be extremely rare and come at a pretty steep cost.

Another example could be the pangolin training jutsu: we could say it has the effect of increasing your level cap on Endurance. This makes sense since that actually fulfills it's purpose as a training jutsu, and it would have repercussions in how it encourages Akane to focus on Endurance in her build. It also is gated behind being appropriately inaccessible to the vast majority of ninja.

Also @Velorien I saw your response re: wakahisa being even more OP if CP are used for aspect tagging. I hadn't thought of that... I'm at work now but I'll keep mulling it over thanks!
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Alternatively, you could potentially allow a ninja to forfeit one of their 1.25x stat slots for the ability to make another 1.5x, and maybe forfeit another to make the remaining one 1.75x. This would allow for specialization without outright removing the specialization limit (which sounds harder on the QMs in terms of balancing).
 
eaglejarl said:
My expectation is that people would have:

Primary: Alertness, Athletics, <combat skill or Sealing or MedNin>
Secondary: Combat skill if not primary, maybe Endurance, maybe socials, maybe Sealing, maybe MedNin
Tertiary: Endurance if it's not secondary, socials if not secondary, maybe Sealing/MedNin
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What about the other two defensive skills? Conviction and Discipline, I believe?
 
Inferno Vulpix said:
Alternatively, you could potentially allow a ninja to forfeit one of their 1.25x stat slots for the ability to make another 1.5x, and maybe forfeit another to make the remaining one 1.75x. This would allow for specialization without outright removing the specialization limit (which sounds harder on the QMs in terms of balancing).
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Ah yeah that's a cool idea to keep Lee in check! It shouldn't really be an available option for most ninja though, because then you're back to being able to build "optimally" by making these tradeoffs, and then everybody would/should do it. And also it shouldn't be a pure tradeoff (imo), Lee should be painfully limited by his build in a way that most ninja wouldn't choose his style. Lee is a genius though, so he probably has enough total XP to brute force his way to competence in spite of his kooky build... Which exactly matches his characterisation!
 
Cariyaga said:
That said, claiming you can't calculate the rate at which Jiraiya turns students into S-rank is kind of a weird claim to me. Yeah, sure, you'll have to adjust your confidence intervals to account for the, well, unaccounted-for time in which he could have trained hundreds of students that tragically died, but it's entirely possible to calculate.
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Maybe it's my lack of mathematical sophistication, but I really don't understand how you calculate a rate when you don't even have any basis to guesstimate the denominator.
 
eaglejarl said:
Not that Noburi knows of.


Done.


Why do you think that?

My expectation is that people would have:

Primary: Alertness, Athletics, <combat skill or Sealing or MedNin>
Secondary: Combat skill if not primary, maybe Endurance, maybe socials, maybe Sealing, maybe MedNin
Tertiary: Endurance if it's not secondary, socials if not secondary, maybe Sealing/MedNin
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I mostly meant that any jonin will have all skills maxed to the point where they can be maxed, and then still have extra XP left on top based on my estimates.

P.s. Also p.sure you linked mod doc there, since I need permission to see it.
 
Velorien said:
I'm honestly confused by why boiling ninjutsu down into a single skill would be a good thing. It makes any kind of ninjutsu diversification purely cosmetic (meaning the players won't bother) and, to my mind, removes half of this quest's point - to preserve the Narutoverse's battle wizards theming while remaking the worldbuilding in accordance with our shared values. What kind of ninjutsu will it actually leave?
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Putting all ninjutsu in one skill is probably oversimplifying, no argument. However, if "all unarmed melee combat" is a skill, and "all armed melee combat", and "all mundane ranged attacks", then I think "Earth Jutsu" and "Fire Jutsu" seem about right for broad-yet-clearly-delimited groupings. It's too easy in most RPG systems to punish characters who try to learn a bunch of related-yet-niche techniques, and I don't think that really fits the setting - an overarching skill for each category and having learning new jutsu be more similar to learning a new seal (though less bad, of course, because no undefined behavior) splits the difference nicely.

Learning new jutsu then becomes a matter of finding a teacher or using Technique Hacking, which allows collectors to put the effort in, without it being a giant XP sink or punishing specialists.

Velorien said:
Each character has a base level defined according to their XP total:
Base level = (5 + (sqrt (XP / 7)))

Hazō has 3141 XP.

You are allowed to have:
3 primary skills at 1.25 * base level (32 for Hazou)
3 secondary skills at 1 * base level (26 for Hazou)
3 tertiary skills at 0.75 * base level (19 for Hazou)
An unlimited number of skills below that.
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Seems like a good starting point for splitting the difference between a freeform set and the Fate columns. Looking back to his old sheet, I'd throw out:

Taijutsu, Athletics, Sealing primary,
Alertness, Deceive, Earth Jutsu secondary,
Stealth, Rapport, Empathy tertiary.

Technically, he did have more Deception than Sealing, but I think with the system change (no more direct Roki bonus, though I suspect he could use it to roll Deceive to set up Aspects for combat advantage) and the way his character's developed, Sealing taking the top slot and Deceive being secondary fits better. Also, neither of them were actually above the secondary skill cap, so it's arbitrary anyway :p.

On that note - @Velorien, were you thinking of making the Primary/Secondary/Tertiary thing something people have to designate in advance, or just that you can only have so many skills past those caps?
 
Winged_One said:
I mostly meant that any jonin will have all skills maxed to the point where they can be maxed, and then still have extra XP left on top based on my estimates.
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Could you-the-playerbase run the numbers on that for me? I don't think it's going to be the case that all jōnin will look the same or that there is one 'optimal' build under these rules.

As a point of reference, given the plans that the playerbase has made, Hazō has earned about 4 XP / day since TGR and a ninja would typically be promoted to jōnin after 6-10 years depending on their level of brilliance.

Winged_One said:
P.s. Also p.sure you linked mod doc there, since I need permission to see it.
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Oops, you're right, I did. Fixed. Correct link is here: PLAYER VIEW: Proposed MfD Rules: The Next Generation

Erolki said:
On that note - @Velorien, were you thinking of making the Primary/Secondary/Tertiary thing something people have to designate in advance, or just that you can only have so many skills past those caps?
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The second one, except replace "past those caps" with "at those caps".
 
Maybe make it so that you can spend XP to increase the number of the skills you can have as primary? Make it something very expensive, but worth it for S-ranking ninja like Jiraya who, based on what I understood from his words back when he gave us seals, has all 5 elements more or less equally mastered.
 
Velorien said:
New proposal to manage skill specialisation (and prevent hyperspecialisation):

Each character has a base level defined according to their XP total:
Base level = (5 + (sqrt (XP / 7)))

Hazō has 3141 XP.

You are allowed to have:
3 primary skills at 1.25 * base level (32 for Hazou)
3 secondary skills at 1 * base level (26 for Hazou)
3 tertiary skills at 0.75 * base level (19 for Hazou)
An unlimited number of skills below that.

Questions? Comments? Large thrown objects?
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eaglejarl said:
The second one, except replace "past those caps" with "at those caps".
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So the difference between a tertiary and other skills is literally 1 level? For Hazo, exactly 3 skills at 27-32; exactly 3 skills at 20-26, exactly 3 skills at 19, and any amount of skills at 18 or lower?

In that case tertiary seems a bit unnecessary.

Someone check my maths, but the XP cost to max out a character, given a base level N:

3 primary skills of L=1.25 * N
P = 3 * L * (L+1) / 2 = (3L^2 +3L) / 2 = 4.6875N^2 + 3.75N /2

3 secondary skills of L = N
P = 3 * N * (N+1) / 2 = 3N*2 + 3N / 2

3 tertiary skills of L =0.75N
P = 3L*2 + 3L / 2 = 1.6875N*2 + 2.25 N / 2

X skills of L = 0.75N - 1 (currently X = 15)

P = X (L*2 + L) / 2 = X * [(0.75N - 1) * (0.75N - 1) + 0.75N - 1] / 2 = X * [0.5625N^2 - 1.5N + 1 + 0.75N - 1] / 2 = X * 0.5625 * N^2 - 0.75XN / 2

Total sum of XP spent is: [(9.375 + 0.5625X) * N^2 + (9 - 0.75X) N] / 2
Substituting and renaming X to S and XP to x: (9.375 + 0.5625S) * (5 + sqrt(x/7)) * (5 + sqrt(x/7)) / 2 + (9 - 0.75S) * ((5 + sqrt(x/7))) / 2
Pasting into wolfram alpha to simplify:

1/2 (9 - 0.75 S) (5 + sqrt(x)/sqrt(7)) + 1/2 (9.375 + 0.5625 S) (5 + sqrt(x)/sqrt(7))^2

Solving 'x - above' for different values of S to find when you have more xp points than required to max all primary/secondary/tertiary and S quartary skills:
S = 0 (when do you get to max your primary/secondary/tertiaries?) : x is 4259
S = 4, x is about 20393. I.e. after you have 20393 skill points you can pick up a 5th skill
S = 6, x is about 81837
S = 7, x is about 284574
S = 8, x is 9.04 * 10^6
S = 9 has no solutions - just the linear term is > x.
 
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lahwran said:
so I just finished reading the story thread, but uh... why so many interludes vs actual story lately? if that's ok to ask.
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The battle that we ended on, defending the fort from an invading Mist force, has about twelve people to a side, and the sheer amount of processing the QMs needed to do was much much too great for them to handle. The system has always been computationally heavy and taking a lot of QM effort, and this was the straw that broke the camel's back.

So we're shifting to a new system, one that's been professionally balanced and that takes less effort to simulate. The one we seem to be going with is FATE modified to fit the high-lethality rocket tag world of Marked for Death with all its quirks like sealing, chakra reserves, and the particular stat curves the world is built around.

This requires a lot of work from them too, but they don't want to interrupt their update schedule so they've been letting us vote for interludes in the meantime. Once they have a full working system that they're reasonably confident doesn't have major exploits and holes, they'll work with us to redesign the characters to fit the new system and let us roll back to just before we made the fort so the sudden shift in rules doesn't happen mid-combat.

We're closer to the end of the shift than the start, by my estimation. There's still some very crucial things to work out, especially regarding XP curves and how to avoid overspecialization, but it shouldn't be too long before we're back on track. And hey, if you've seen the Zabuza v. Shikigami fight you can probably tell that fights in this new system are going to be pretty darn cool.
 
Anderkent said:
Solving 'x - above' for different values of S to find when you have more xp points than required to max all primary/secondary/tertiary and S quartary skills:
S = 0 (when do you get to max your primary/secondary/tertiaries?) : x is 4259
S = 4, x is about 20393. I.e. after you have 20393 skill points you can pick up a 5th skill
S = 6, x is about 81837
S = 7, x is about 284574
S = 8, x is 9.04 * 10^6
S = 9 has no solutions - just the linear term is > x.
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I cannot follow how you got these numbers, but I'll assume you're right. My question is: what does this actually mean? Sure, jōnin will have their skills at level cap but that doesn't say anything about what skills those will be or if there is an optimal build for all ninja.
 
[X] Hazou becomes capable of talking to the hivemind

Wonder if that occurence involves a sealing failure or two.
He did meet a certain space whale thanks to this, after all...
 
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Raxner said:
Maybe it's my lack of mathematical sophistication, but I really don't understand how you calculate a rate when you don't even have any basis to guesstimate the denominator.
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You give a vague guess at how sure you are of that the information you have is correct in percent form (he trained five ninja, four of which are S-rank), and then multiply the probability that he's a good teacher by that percent (ie * .7 for 70% sure). Now, this doesn't help with determining the outside probabilities, but it's a good start at determining how likely they are. Obviously this is subjective to greater or lesser extent, but it's a good start for nailing down probabilities.
 
Quick vote correction:
[X]Hazou becomes aware of and speaks with the hivemind

Because capability and actually doing the action are two very different things.
 
Omake please, for the love of god. Poor Hazou doesn't need the damage to his psyche in canon that would result of direct contact with the hivemind :p
 
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