Voting is open for the next 1 day, 20 hours
If it looks as if both hypotheses are wrong, then don't invite Shikamaru over.

If both hypotheses are wrong, couldn't we just have him over for a social visit anyways? And Choji as well?

I will note though that trying to put together evidence that the same decline that is happening to Mist is happening to Leaf is probably the work of weeks, if not months, of research. And likely Keiko will need access to the logistics department archives, since that's where relevant data will be kept.
 
Was this a typo? Good chapter, good psych play. Damn not doing much hurts XP gain. Do we know what Mari's doing (other than Jiraiya) right now?
Nope, not a typo. She was having trouble pinning down exactly how much they own. It's definitely more than one percent and less than ten so "several".

Missing word.

Also, you madman. You got me with that title.
Fixed, thanks.

In all fairness, Noburi seemed to be worse. Not only was he attempting to railroad a party death, he was arbitrarily adding equipment, skills and spells to make it happen. At the end of the day, he was doing the exact same thing except worse.
In his defense, he's an inexperienced GM who had a really exciting plot in mind that Hazou just derailed. Hazou was supposed to revive as a zombie demon and be sent to destroy local villages; he would struggle from within to subvert his instructions while the team desperately battled to capture him and discover the Rites of Reversal to bring him back. Of course, the evil Demon Sombie cult wouldn't be sitting idle while all this was happening, forcing the team to choose between saving their friend or saving the world....

So... we're just ignoring stutter drives?
What's a stutter drive? If you mean the propulsion seals and engines then you mentioned them to him.
 
[X] Action Plan : Meet and Greet

Fun looking plan. I like how we turn routine socializing and games into training sessions ^_^
 
Ok, I think that we should do as Keiko suggested - talk to Jiraiya about setting up a meeting with the Naras. Keiko can meet with the clan elders, and Hazou can socialize with Shikamaru to further improve relations.

Things to do with Shikamaru...
- In depth discussion of planning aides.
- Play shogi. (and likely lose)
- Invent 3D shogi. (if the Naras haven't already)
- Play 3D shogi. (and likely lose)
- Discuss potential tactics and strategies for the upcoming war, and how skywalkers will change things. (if Shikamaru is authorized to know about them)
- If he's allowed to, discuss the Nara fighting style to get ideas on seals to develop to assist their clan.
 
Riffing off @Radvic's and list of active things to do.

[X] Action Plan: ALL the Subplans

For each of the following subplans, follow the highest-voted subplan, in the order of most votes. Ignore any subplans that are not voted on. If something of the form "Seal Experiment Subplan: Nope", ignore the subplan. I will link every subplan in a sub-bullet-point to make this hopefully easier to follow.

Bolded points need subplans written.
  • Seal experiments subplan
  • Send Akane covert messages like we're ninja or something subplan
  • Befriend Merchant Council People subplan
  • Find out about the Capybara scroll mission subplan
  • Plan a Hana heist subplan
  • Boardgame subplan
  • Make out with the librarian subplan
  • Get Noburi an internship subplan
  • Socialize with Shikamaru subplan
Want a subplan added to the list? Well, I love subplans, so if you write it, I'll add it.
 
Subplan-in-ating @Enjou's list:

[x] Socialize with Shikamaru subplan: Things and Stuff
  • Visit Shikamaru as is convenient for him
    • Discuss planning aides in depth
    • Play Shogi
    • Invent 3D Shogi (if not yet invented)
    • Play 3D Shogi
    • Discuss tactics and strategies for the upcoming war, especially the effects of skywalkers on Leaf doctrine, but only in a fully secure room, contingent on getting security clearance to do so
    • Provided Shikamaru's allowed, discuss clan fighting style to get ideas on seals to develop and assist their clan
 
@bayesclef Please no. It's more work for the GMs (who have to find all the various subplans and write a story on them) and the voters (who have to find all the various subplans and vote/improve them).
 
Riffing off @Radvic's and list of active things to do.

[X] Action Plan: ALL the Subplans

For each of the following subplans, follow the highest-voted subplan, in the order of most votes. Ignore any subplans that are not voted on. If something of the form "Seal Experiment Subplan: Nope", ignore the subplan. I will link every subplan in a sub-bullet-point to make this hopefully easier to follow.

Bolded points need subplans written.
  • Seal experiments subplan
  • Send Akane covert messages like we're ninja or something subplan
  • Befriend Merchant Council People subplan
  • Find out about the Capybara scroll mission subplan
  • Plan a Hana heist subplan
  • Boardgame subplan
  • Make out with the librarian subplan
  • Get Noburi an internship subplan
  • Socialize with Shikamaru subplan
Want a subplan added to the list? Well, I love subplans, so if you write it, I'll add it.
To clarify, you want your action plan to consist of at least nine separate sections, each of which will have a subplan's level of detail?
 
To clarify, you want your action plan to consist of at least nine separate sections, each of which will have a subplan's level of detail?

Right now, there's only one section that's valid, since you ignore subplans which aren't voted on. The final number might be more than nine, if subplans get added, or less than nine, if not every one gets voted on. My intuition is on the less side.

I want to work with you. From my writing experience—which is certainly less than yours—I'd expect several smaller plans, each corresponding to a separate scene, to be easier to write for; if I'm wrong, I'll stop. If you'd like to be able to choose which points you write, I'm more than happy to accommodate.

Thing is, modularizing the planning has a lot of benefits. It makes it easier for more people to engage with planning. The finer levels of granularity helps the final plan reflect the will of the thread better. It means that it's okay if a plan maintainer has IRL commitments that don't mesh with when voting closes. In fact, that's exactly what happened the last time we modularized a plan, which was for chapter 91, which I feel was the best update (out of all good ones) yet.

My understanding of your complaint about the accompanying plan was that it was long ("I have a draft for the next plan that is equal or greater to this one in length."), which is what I've tried to address. The top-level plan is both short and simple. Each of the current subplans is short and simple and should remain so, since they're reasonably focused. Since this is very much a time when the various points don't interact with each other, I anticipate that, at any moment that you're writing, you're engaging with a small, simple plan, each corresponding to a scene, which I anticipate to be easier for you to write. If I'm wrong about this, please communicate this so I can stop failing to make things easier.

It's more work for the GMs (who have to find all the various subplans and write a story on them) and the voters (who have to find all the various subplans and vote/improve them).

Above, I've described how, if I'm wrong on the GM side, I'll stop. From my perspective as a player, given planbot and linking to the subplans in the top-level plan, it's less work to engage with a series of short, simple subplans. In particular, if I have a disagreement in one part with a plan maintainer, without a modular plan, I have to make an entirely new plan that's the same except in one place and now everyone has to diff two mostly-identical plans and that's more work than only engaging with the bits that's different. It's so much more work that it's the main thing that keeps me from voting.

If most of the thread finds modular plans taking more work disagree, I'll stop.
 
if I have a disagreement in one part with a plan maintainer, without a modular plan, I have to make an entirely new plan that's the same except in one place and now everyone has to diff two mostly-identical plans and that's more work than only engaging with the bits that's different
So...

Your problem with the current system is that it requires you to make multiple plans with minor differences, if you have a problem with the current plan.

And your solution...

Is to make exponentially more subplans.

And you think this is less reading.

Have you considered copy-pasting the other plan, and making the changes just to that section you don't like? I feel it would be much simpler.
 
Right now, there's only one section that's valid, since you ignore subplans which aren't voted on. The final number might be more than nine, if subplans get added, or less than nine, if not every one gets voted on. My intuition is on the less side.

I want to work with you. From my writing experience—which is certainly less than yours—I'd expect several smaller plans, each corresponding to a separate scene, to be easier to write for; if I'm wrong, I'll stop. If you'd like to be able to choose which points you write, I'm more than happy to accommodate.

Thing is, modularizing the planning has a lot of benefits. It makes it easier for more people to engage with planning. The finer levels of granularity helps the final plan reflect the will of the thread better. It means that it's okay if a plan maintainer has IRL commitments that don't mesh with when voting closes. In fact, that's exactly what happened the last time we modularized a plan, which was for chapter 91, which I feel was the best update (out of all good ones) yet.

My understanding of your complaint about the accompanying plan was that it was long ("I have a draft for the next plan that is equal or greater to this one in length."), which is what I've tried to address. The top-level plan is both short and simple. Each of the current subplans is short and simple and should remain so, since they're reasonably focused. Since this is very much a time when the various points don't interact with each other, I anticipate that, at any moment that you're writing, you're engaging with a small, simple plan, each corresponding to a scene, which I anticipate to be easier for you to write. If I'm wrong about this, please communicate this so I can stop failing to make things easier.



Above, I've described how, if I'm wrong on the GM side, I'll stop. From my perspective as a player, given planbot and linking to the subplans in the top-level plan, it's less work to engage with a series of short, simple subplans. In particular, if I have a disagreement in one part with a plan maintainer, without a modular plan, I have to make an entirely new plan that's the same except in one place and now everyone has to diff two mostly-identical plans and that's more work than only engaging with the bits that's different. It's so much more work that it's the main thing that keeps me from voting.

If most of the thread finds modular plans taking more work disagree, I'll stop.
Data point: I find modular plans to take substantially more work to read and review and to be unclear on what I'm voting for. As a consequence, I have no memory of ever voting for a modular plan (and don't particularly intend to). Like, I get what the idea is behind them, but it seems like an easy way to pass stuff that really shouldn't be passed (which lacks review), and is difficult to find what I'm voting for.

Edit: note that I'm fine with linking, quoting, or spoilering stuff in a plan to make the overarching plan easier to read and review. But when I need to go find the latest vote tally, and the plan leaves up which action will happen to the other votes, it starts to get really hard to figure out what is happening, and thus hard to provide good feedback.
 
Last edited:
@Velorien @OliWhail @eaglejarl

Do ninja have a semaphore communication system?

Given their level of development, I do not expect them to have such a system in place, since the semaphore system is a relatively late development, though I do note that they already have precursors in place(very bright light, smoke signal, etc).
 
So, just an idea for a seal that might be useful to the Naras.

1. Take the air dome, and make it opaque so that it generates a shadow. (perhaps turn it into a thick cloud rather than just air?)
2. Adjust the shape to flatten it, providing a larger surface area.
3. Optional: Add a timer so it can be used with kunai.

Result: A highly durable deployable screen that makes a big shadow.
 
Your problem with the current system is that it requires you to make multiple plans with minor differences, if you have a problem with the current plan.

And your solution...

Is to make exponentially more subplans.

And you think this is less reading.

Yes. I contend that copy/pasting another plan and just changing the bits I don't like results in two full-length plans will take more reading than two subplans which are necessarily shorter. Put another way, given lengths L and l, L >> l, and a positive integer n, I contend nL > nl.

Radvic (who has voted for a modular plan) has already weighed in against it. If many more participants agree that it's harder for them, then I'll accept that my preference is idiosyncratic and... actually it won't directly be an issue, since the modular plan won't carry the vote, but I'll certainly stop cluttering the thread.
 
Last edited:
@Jello_Raptor - A couple questions/notes on your plan.

1. The update ends with Hazou saying to do this:

"I see," Hazō said. He paused, then slapped his thighs and stood up. "In that case, tomorrow morning we'll talk to Jiraiya about setting up a meeting."

Why is your plan not setting up this meeting for Keiko?

2. These...

  • Work with Keiko to gather data for our hypothesis on scorch squads
    • Contingency: Stick to things you can get without leaving the house and would be considered public.
    • Agricultural, population, and merchant data seems particularly important.
    • See if there's places (like near Tea or in some crevice somewhere?) where we'd expect to see no scorch squads, check if there's a marked difference in survival rates between there and places where we'd expect to see them (near the border?)
    • See if there's any pattern of villages going missing.
    • Show your working.
  • Work with Keiko on the general collapse hypothesis.
    • Contingency: Stick to things you can get without leaving the house and would be considered public.
    • Look at birth and death rates, and the factors influencing them.
    • Attempt to develop a model for these rates.
    • Figure out whether it points to a resource spiral, the slow death of humanity, or any other existential crisis.
    • Try to see if you can't get a gross estimate of what would happen with no upcoming war, an upcoming war without skywalkers. Be very precise in your methodology, so that someone with better numbers can run along and plug them in.
    • See if you can get a gross estimate of what would happen with Civilian Usable Storage Scrolls, Civilian usable macerators, and Civilian Usable Airships (Base the design on the hot air things, assume they require significant sealing to manufacture, some to maintain, and none to operate. Will it help that they can fly over the chakra beasts and stuff?)
    • Show your working.

...seem overly ambitious. Doing research to determine if Leaf/Fire is experiencing a similar decline in population as Mist/Water is will be a project that will takes weeks, if not months, of research to collect the data and go through it. Remember that even with the printing press, Leaf has nothing approaching the internet or computers in this setting - data is all going to be on paper, and a lot of it isn't going to be in the library either. Tax records, population data, etc. are going to be in the possession of Leaf's logistics department, and I don't think we'll have access to that yet.

Further, I don't think we should do anything regarding scorch squads yet, especially with the implication that Leaf has them too. I think it's more important to get evidence that there is a decline, and then pursue the reasons why. That said, the collapse thing isn't going to be all that high in the priority of Leaf's leadership at the moment, since the war with Mist is looming - I don't think we should bring it up to them.


As I said earlier, I think what needs to be done here is for Keiko to meet the Nara clan elders to discuss the deal, and for Hazou to have some social time with Shikamaru since they seem to get along. We could add to that having Keiko create a short report based on her observations to show that Mist/Sea has experienced and is continuing to experience a slow but noticeable decline in population over time, have Hazou present that to Shikamaru as part of their discussions, and ask him if there's been any similar observations regarding Leaf/Fire. If Shikamaru doesn't have any evidence one way or another or does have evidence indicating Leaf has the same trend, we could look into doing a joint research project to collect more data.
 
I think this is where we're having our disagreement. I don't contend that two subplans themselves are shorter than two full-length plans. But I DO contend that your method is different, because you don't seem to have taken into account the fact that we need to read the (primary) action plan which contains the subplans, plus all the subplans themselves, plus the time needed to find them...
 
In his defense, he's an inexperienced GM who had a really exciting plot in mind that Hazou just derailed. Hazou was supposed to revive as a zombie demon and be sent to destroy local villages; he would struggle from within to subvert his instructions while the team desperately battled to capture him and discover the Rites of Reversal to bring him back. Of course, the evil Demon Sombie cult wouldn't be sitting idle while all this was happening, forcing the team to choose between saving their friend or saving the world....
And also in his defense, I can totally imagine Hazou as the greifing power gamer who would love being a zombie demon at no additional power cost. I can't see him roleplaying it though, so the plan might have been doomed from the start.
 
But I DO contend that your method is different, because you don't seem to have taken into account the fact that we need to read the (primary) action plan which contains the subplans, plus all the subplans themselves, plus the time needed to find them...

I don't read this thread on mobile, so it's very easy for me to just open everything in a new tab. I'm just now realizing (doh!) that mobile users can't do so as easily. "Typical mind fallacy" isn't quite right, but close enough.

Thank you for helping me pinpoint our disagreement, thereby changing my mind.

[-] Action plan: ALL the Subplans
[-] Socialize with Shikamaru subplan: Things and Stuff
 
Family Dinner Subplan

  • If we're a clan or soon-to-be clan, aren't we supposed to be having dinner together every night?
  • Have Mari-sensei invite Jiraiya to dinner.
    • If his godson is in town, invite him and his team as well.
  • If Jiraiya objects.
    • I don't have time. Point out that it will only take thirty minutes of his time, every night.
    • I can't make it this evening. Expect him to make the effort nonetheless.
      • Unless it's a mission or emergency.
 
Last edited:
Voting is open for the next 1 day, 20 hours
Back
Top