- Location
- The Void
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- She/Her
High attribute tax plus penalty due to failure does not make a skill a would suggest leveling
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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
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- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard open voting
Rihaku
The Internet
I think you are being... a bit less than charitable with the spin you're trying to put on events. The application of Iron Nerve to social graces consists explicitly of the steps I outlined:
1) Create a large library of well-executed social configurations, ideally with the assistance of a socially skilled teacher
2) Be able to recall the appropriate configuration for the situation
It does not have anything to do with the character's natural charisma or manipulativeness. The primary relevant characteristics are 1) the ability to pose one's body with enough precision to convey social nuance and 2) a memory strong enough to hold, categorize, and quickly recall the configuration library. Execution (the part that CHA or MAN would normally govern) is automatically taken care of by the character reverting to an anatomically perfect template. Note that this only perfects body language, the Kurosawa has to think up dialogue by themselves.
I can see an argument for Wits, but memory seems to be more the purview of Intelligence.
The current mechanical situation is this: the players will not vote for Hazou to voluntarily engage in any social interaction he doesn't have to, and even then everything must be triple-checked by Inoue if there are any stakes whatsoever.
It is also the case, mechanically, that Hazou has dumped a lot of XP into Intelligence without entering the 'payoff' phase of XP efficiency where he leverages multiple Skills with one primary Attribute factor. You can kill two birds with one stone if the social Skill keys off INT, which is also exactly congruent with the actual process of Iron Nerve-mediated socialization.
You can say the current situation is 'inefficient' or 'not so bad that anything should change,' those are subjective value judgements. But given the voting pattern when anything social comes up I do not find the latter compelling.
Any skill that operates off the "beat them in a check to get a bonus for the next check" + "penalty for failing badly" is not useful in Hazou's situation. He needs competent-level social stats to not drop his spaghetti when dealing with the likes of Shikaku. I would advocate against spending any XP on a Skill with those features, they are only useful against genin. Better to have something like Deal-Making if one must use existing Skills as examples.
Moreover, what is the Skill actually addressing? Regardless of whether a Kurosawa has a Deception of 1 or 100, when he tells his face to make a stored expression it will perfectly replicate that expression every time. You can try thousands of times to get the exact expression you want and then use it every time. Any Skill that uses Iron Nerve to socialize is not about the object-level execution, but about 1) developing a large expression library and 2) recalling the specific expression to use from that library in a given situation.
I'm not really sure what Hazou is supposed to be doing right now. Akane's dad is a civilian with reasonably high social skills, but he doesn't strike me as actually able to stop her and Hazou from doing anything, especially if Hazou employs even a bit of lateral thinking. Did I miss a part where it said Akane's dad is a ninja?
I suppose Hazou should be taking action to smoothe over ruffled feathers with the clans, but Jiraiya's on that. The Nara and Keiko thing is mostly Keiko's decision. Since Jiraiya wants everyone to stay inconspicuous, the only thing Hazou can really do is train and gather information.
So I guess Hazou should study Yumehara's histories and train his social skills. Since we don't know which Clan will call him up first, we should hold off on any overly detailed Clan strategies until they actually schedule a summons.
Alternatively, he could level Sealing and do some more Sealing research with Kagome.
Vecht
Self-Requested Ban
- Location
- Snarksville, Snarkland
I understand where he's coming from here and I believe I understand the reasoning behind the proposal. But as I stated previously, it doesn't really make sense to invent a new skill to do exactly what you want, with the stats you want it to have, and only token thought put into how it makes sense mechanically. I personally think it should happen in reverse, where you create a thing that makes sense first and then try and make use of it.
I really hate this phrase, but I think this is a case of wanting to have a cake and eat it too.
I think they meant the failure penalties to Diplomacy.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Ah, yeah, whoops. Sorry, @Oneiros43, I thought you were referring to the part you originally quoted -- the "cannot be leveled higher" bit.
This is what Jiraiya advised he do:
Also something to note:
That was Hazō specifically, not the team in general. Should probably think what you want to say to him.
As an alternative suggestion to this, @Radvic, I think it may be better first to ask Jiraiya if he thinks that the other clans may try to influence her or something along those lines to get to us. We shouldn't simply assume that it will be the case, as there may be some kind of clan etiquette thing where you don't bother a clan member's non-clan girlfriend (or, you know, just not doing that because it's a good way to make the clan person angry at you).
Vecht
Self-Requested Ban
- Location
- Snarksville, Snarkland
I'm arguing from how I see things from my perspective. Hard to do otherwise. I understand it can look like a "spin", but, no, I am honestly representing mt thoughts on the matter here. To the extent I'm uncharitable, chalk it up to character flaws.
I get this. But I maintain that the two issues are independent and that they should probably be dealt with independently in this case.
It's not about just making the right expression, but also knowing what expressions and behaviors to perform, what the target will respond to, how much is too much, etc. There are definitely nuances here being glossed over.
Dissonance
Luna's Luna
- Location
- Ginnungagap.
- Pronouns
- S/H/T
Also, speeches for the idealists and something to emphasize our loyalty to Leaf and how the Will of Fire is better than whatever lameass stuff Mist has.
- Location
- Phoenix, AZ
[X] a plan
Let's do our best to gain political support in Leaf's clans, and keep the ball rolling on the Pangolin mission. This plan is focused on us founding our clan.
If Jiraiya thinks it a good idea, give substitution permissions to trusted ANBU
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Feel free to copy and edit if you like the outline but dislike certain details.
Mostly I just don't want a lore update.
Let's do our best to gain political support in Leaf's clans, and keep the ball rolling on the Pangolin mission. This plan is focused on us founding our clan.
- Elaborate more on the most promising inovations and ideas
- Invisible Ink Seals : Hazou likely can draw seals out of invisible ink. This may let us keep the advantage of certain seals like skywalkers for a little longer past when enemies capture our seals
- Propulsion Seals : We have some ideas on how to make seals that can be used to propel boats, carts, or airships and to turn cranks. This could be helpful for logistical purpose, civilian transportation, agriculture, and industry
- Potential methods for doing this are: Modified Macerators, Force seals, Explosive seals, loops with storage seals releasing and storing weights activated by tripwires
- Tell Jiraiya that the Iron Nerve is Uchiha derived. We don't know if that will be an issue. We've been told that People with activated sharingans will be able to tell by looking at our eyes.
- As a miscellaneous item related to the upcoming Capybara Scroll mission, Hazou notes to Jiraiya that he remembers a strange turn of phrase a Hinago ninja used - "the serpent is in the details". The HInago Medical Facility is where the deal is going down, and the Hydra Medical Foundation is another medical group that is in Tea (where the Capybara scroll presumably disappeared from) that uses a mythical snake in their name and has odd turns of phrase related to that. Two medical groups with some strange snake related themes? Maybe a coincidence, but they could also be code signal phrases, and it could indicate a connection. Ask if Jiraiya managed to investigate the Hydra Foundation, and if there's anything he's able to share about it if he did.
- Ask Kei if she'd like our help with directed questions from an external perspective to help investigate her options. If she would like it ask : with all else equal, would she prefer to be in the J-clan or the Nara clan?
- If Kei prefers to be a Nara:
- Would she prefer to be adopted or married?
- Ask J: is marriage to Shikamaru on the table?
- Ask J: is adoption by Shikaku on the table?
- Could the clans share Keiko? Maybe have Mari and Shikaku both adapt her?
- Perhaps a betrothal instead of immediate marriage or adaption?
- If Kei prefers to be in Jiraiya's clan:
- Ask J: Is "Nara Keiko" Shikaku's final offer, or do we have room to renegotiate here? If there's room to renegotiate, what might he accept instead?
- If Kei prefers to be a Nara:
- Prepare speech outlines for use when Jiraiya shows us off to people
- Loyalty speech
- Civilian prosperity speech
- Useful invention speech
- Non-lethality speech
- Read Books
- Provide Jiraiya a more complete list of our ideas, categorized by how long it will take us to research them.
- Immediately Viable (Disclaimer: These are ideas which could be implemented immediately or near immediately, and likely make decent bargaining chips)
- Macerator Variations (Disclaimer : All of these are just other things we could put into the misterators to get a bevy of other effects.)
- Smoke Bomb : Fill with ash or talc, mostly annoying.
- Scent Bomb : Fill with scented oils or other similar materials.
- Border patrols and other similar groups given these could tag a more powerful enemy and run, allowing more powerful teams with good noses to find them more easily.
- Crowd Control : Fill with pepper or other skin irritants.
- No idea how much you deal with civilians non-lethally, but this will be useful to keep any unruly post-war populations in line without killing them and causing further unrest.
- Poison Bomb : Fill with poison.
- You've got mednin, researchers, and the Yamanaka. They've got to have poisons that would work well when turned into a mist.
- Flashbang : Fill with small amount of soft, white-hot metal.
- Probably a bit difficult to get right, but it should fill the air with a large pile of glowing dust that is very bright for a tiny moment before it cools off.
- Non-lethal, though it might cause minor blisters.
- Medicinal Use (Non-Combat) : Use to grind and mix medicinal ingredients.
- Probably good for creating standardized repeatable doses of medicines, as well as generally making them easier to absorb.
- Cooking (Non-Combat) : I'm sure the Akimichi will come up with something.
- Poor Man's Yellow Flash applications
- Storage seal attached to a timer, stick a kawarimi target into the seal, and put the seal on a Kunai. Get the target where you need it.
- Can be used to move quickly because you can throw the kunai hard, and the target will be moving at speed. When you swap you're going however fast the target was.
- Put a huge rock in it, now you have a kunai that turns into a large rock moving very fast. Squish.
- The Uchiha, with their famed kinesthetic sense, can probably do some very amusing and useful things with this.
- Try throwing only these and then swap to an explosive kunai when your enemy figures out the pattern.
- Sheeting Yourself : If you're falling and need to slow yourself down, henge into a large thin sheet of cloth. Useful if you're in midair and something unexpected happens.
- Probably should be part of the Leaf standard doctrine for Skywalker and Skytower use. It should definitely be in the first draft of the doctrine.
- Invisible Ink Seals : We can probably make seals off of invisible ink
- This would help with opsec for new seals like skywalkers
- Macerator Variations (Disclaimer : All of these are just other things we could put into the misterators to get a bevy of other effects.)
- Little Effort Needed (Disclaimer : Require tiny modifications or improvements to seals we already know. Between days and weeks of research.)
- Pressure Triggered Seals : Seals that allow triggering of other seals with small carefully applied pressure.
- Make ones that the Aburame could trigger with their bugs.
- Make seals that civilians can use.
- Pressure Triggered Seals : Seals that allow triggering of other seals with small carefully applied pressure.
- Some Effort Needed (Disclaimer : Chains of research products, projects probably take weeks to months.)
- Poor Man's Sensor Seals : Provide anyone with shitty chakra sensor powers.
- We expect that we could make chakra detecting seals that buzz quietly.
- When worn on a tight belt should give some indication of chakra use and direction in the nearby environment. (Seals closer to the source would buzz more)
- With 24/7 use, training, and practice, detecting chakra should become second nature.
- Probably not as good as a normal sensor, and probably issues with sensing at range, but it's a lot better than nothing.
- Civilian Usable Storage Seals : Lets civilians use them to transfer goods, and generally allows merchants to be more efficient.
- Storage Seal with tripwire seals on the reverse that trigger storage and release.
- Civvies get more logistics capability, more trade, cheaper luxuries, bigger goods stockpiles.
- Might be worth just giving away the design after a war to help counteract the usual post-war economic slump in losing nations.
- Civilian Usable Macerators : Same as civilian storage, but for macerators that only grind/mix, don't expel with velocity or aerate.
- Same thing with tripwires, set so that they are only useful for extremely fine grinding and mixing.
- Probably useful for a lot of things, if we make more powerful macerators first should allow civilians to powder metals and other interesting materials.
- Likely more efficient extraction of ore from stone, easier and more repeatable experimentation with alloys. Another economic boost, and more metal is probably good all around.
- Poor Man's Sensor Seals : Provide anyone with shitty chakra sensor powers.
- Significant Effort Needed (Disclaimers : Requires lots of preliminary research, or requires a more skill than we have right now.)
- Airships : Either seal based aircraft, or lighter than air craft that only require sealing for construction and not for operation.
- Likely useful to keep Leaf's superiority after everyone has skywalkers and skytowers. (They will probably leak if we use them a lot, and we should think about how to keep that from being a problem before that happens.)
- Sealing Pantograph : Want to explore methods to maximize the production of seals, start with making multiple duplicates at a time.
- Propulsion Seals : We have some ideas on how to make seals that can be used to power boats, carts, or airships. Might be useful.
- Modified Macerators
- Force seals
- Explosive seals
- loops with automated storage seals using gravity for power
- Airships : Either seal based aircraft, or lighter than air craft that only require sealing for construction and not for operation.
- Immediately Viable (Disclaimer: These are ideas which could be implemented immediately or near immediately, and likely make decent bargaining chips)
Hazou's General Disposition
*Hazou is earnest, but not energetically so. Does best to remain calm and professional.
*Willing to engage deeply on an intellectual level but understands that own ideas can be radical; will explain them in depth but does not become "preachy"
*Does genuinely believe in Leaf's ideals and is committed to ending the war quickly - and as bloodlessly as possible. Tie back into Yumehara's histories and other books if appropriate, but not in a tryhard or favor-seeking way: Shikaku will see through that in an instant.
*Do not accept any binding commitments, Hazou has to defer to Jiraiya / Mari on those
Likely Convo Topics
*How Nara & J clan can mutually benefit each other - Plenty of ways, Shikaku will likely have thought of more than Hazou. Just be open and honest here.
*Hazou's Ultimate Goals - From a zoomed-out perspective, Hazou's ideals should be relatively compatible or at least not strongly incompatible with those of most ninja. Hazou wants a world with less suffering & destruction and believes this can be achieved through better coordination, incentive alignment, and technological progress (increasing power of the species -> leveraging this power to reduce suffering). However, Hazou is not a hardline / calculating utilitarian nor does he believe blindly in the power of progress. A sealmaster as teacher has taught him caution for the power of technology.
*Hazou is earnest, but not energetically so. Does best to remain calm and professional.
*Willing to engage deeply on an intellectual level but understands that own ideas can be radical; will explain them in depth but does not become "preachy"
*Does genuinely believe in Leaf's ideals and is committed to ending the war quickly - and as bloodlessly as possible. Tie back into Yumehara's histories and other books if appropriate, but not in a tryhard or favor-seeking way: Shikaku will see through that in an instant.
*Do not accept any binding commitments, Hazou has to defer to Jiraiya / Mari on those
Likely Convo Topics
*How Nara & J clan can mutually benefit each other - Plenty of ways, Shikaku will likely have thought of more than Hazou. Just be open and honest here.
*Hazou's Ultimate Goals - From a zoomed-out perspective, Hazou's ideals should be relatively compatible or at least not strongly incompatible with those of most ninja. Hazou wants a world with less suffering & destruction and believes this can be achieved through better coordination, incentive alignment, and technological progress (increasing power of the species -> leveraging this power to reduce suffering). However, Hazou is not a hardline / calculating utilitarian nor does he believe blindly in the power of progress. A sealmaster as teacher has taught him caution for the power of technology.
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Feel free to copy and edit if you like the outline but dislike certain details.
Mostly I just don't want a lore update.
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- Location
- USA
Rihaku may be less concerned with the wording, but I'm thinking you may want to start sharing shoe recipies with Kiba at this rate. Multiple times saying "you didn't put any effort into this" when he's putting double the wordcount you are (for a first glance estimate of effort, since I at least don't claim to be in his head) and begging the question of your own assessment of its balance.
What exactly was the design process behind Roki, and how did you feel about it? "Developing a technique and style to match your skillset" is sort've the entire point of developing a new technique? In character anyways thats exactly what you would seek to do, it shouldn't be any surprise it looks the same OOC. You have to judge it on its own merits and not by assuming bad faith motives behind it. Would this design be balanced if we didn't already have a character who benefits from it?
You seem to be ignoring the contingency Rihaku mentioned for its use, or else should be saying "this doesn't work at all" rather than "add these other Stats in". Wits or Charisma would have us developing the Programs on the fly (avoiding that is the whole purpose of this), he's instead outsourcing that to another character to do for him.
You might say "the skill makes no mention of how good the outsourcing was in development", but thats a matter of QM fiat on which instances we can use this skill, not something to cover in the skills XP costs. The point is that Hazou isn't designing the Programs, his wits and charisma never come into it, he's executing someone elses' design. Just as the Kurosawa clan (shown by the Aunt and Hana) are borrowing on a shared library of designed Programs and not inventing their own. We just have Mari, Jiraiya, and whoever else help us design the library instead of the Clan we lack access to.
- Location
- Phoenix, AZ
Dust bomb isn't a much bigger bomb. I think. It's just a different bomb.
Rihaku
The Internet
In that case I can only say that your interpretation of my intentions is incorrect, and the previous post explains why.
As long as you agree that they should be dealt with, that's fine. The specific proposal in question was created because it allows us to vote for, and the GMs to write, a wider variety of scenes than would be enabled by another Mad Science skill. This is an extremely large benefit.
Okay, I can see an argument for that. Do you cede that INT and DEX actually are the primary execution-related attributes given the biomechanical process taking place?
Since the character is able to leave execution to his body and operates instead on the 'strategic / perception' level - much easier than the typical ninja who has to both know the correct action and then devote resources to capably execute that action - I can see an argument for MAN or WIT as an Attribute pre-req, but at a less restrictive level - x4 probably.
EDIT: Upon a re-read of this quote, I think you have the wrong idea of what the Skill I proposed is for. It's not actually about crafting the specific emotional outburst most useful for moving the target. It's about using Iron Nerve to simulate the cluster of behaviors subconsciously exhibited by extremely charismatic people when they are in a peak flow state. Three general mindsets cover 95% of Hazou's interactions with such a Skill -
1) Self-assured and calm, but unthreatening - used with superiors
2) Unshakeable confidence, but friendly - used with peers
3) Icy formidability - used with enemies
When someone throws an insult at you, no matter how clever it is, if your nonverbal communication remains entirely relaxed, the insult will fall flat. This is almost impossible to do, even the best will at least micro-flinch if a barb really lands. For Hazou, never showing weakness is a much simpler matter.
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- Location
- Phoenix, AZ
This is fair. Mostly, I'm watching Rick and Morty right now, so don't trust myself to write it. I left it in as a placeholder. I'll remove it, and make a new plan with it added in it if there are good suggestions or I come up with something later tonight.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
...Hm. You know, maybe we could use a combination of PMYF and Implosion seals to propel an object in a given direction when attached to a kunai? That sounds complicated, but doable.
e: Oh shit, this would work perfectly with macerators.
e: Oh shit, this would work perfectly with macerators.
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How powerful was the bomb we tested back in that island? Isn't that very destructive?
Also, wouldn't civilian usable storage seals be a security nightmare? If Kagome-sensei put in a stupid-box in a storage seal, then it follows that it should be possible for civilians to do the same thing.
[X] a plan
