Modulo spending on CR intended to Summon Cannai I largely agree, I think that's enough value in both scenarios that it's worth spending the XP to add that capability to Hazou now.
Alright, then I'm largely appeased, as long as you recognize the need to avoid the outlined scenario and to start saving up XP in the medium-term.

I agree that spending XP on CR now is a locally reasonable decision. I'm only concerned about making a pattern of this type of decisions, where we (1) keep spending XP as soon as we get it (to ensure it doesn't lay fallow), and (2) never spend it on BoC or TH, because that would feel like committing to steal-the-rift. Which, as outlined, would effectively result in +1 month to how fast we can act.
 
@eaglejarl @Paperclipped @Velorien , does Hazō know how fast, and/or how chakra-efficiently, Bones of Creation can make substrate? It's not specified in the jutsu doc - the casting cost is, as is the additional sustain cost to make substrate, but not how fast the technique can convert how much material. (In particular, is the fixed thing "time for 1 unit of substrate" or "time to convert all affected material to substrate"? If it's the latter, that would mean the technique becomes massively more efficient at higher levels.)
 
Actually a great idea, would let Kei cast CotWG at effect 5 for 87 chakra instead of 113.
She would need Wind Element Apprentice, for which she'd need another wind technique at 15 or higher, first. Plus the rule letting you do that was marked as tentative:
Finally, we're considering adding the following rule for Elemental Specializations. Discussion on this topic would be helpful, but do not get attached to the rule – we could well decide not to add it.
  • If you have Elemental (Apprentice/Journeyman/Master/Grandmaster) in (2/3/4/5) Elements, you may increase the cast by (1/2/3/4) Effects without paying additional chakra. This cannot increase the Effect above maximum allowable by your level in the ninjutsu.
    • E.g. ninjutsu-spec jounin with 3x Elemental Journeyman stunts, max Earth Element 52, Earth Wall 40. They cast Earth Wall at Effect: 1 (31 CP), and the Earth Wall would take effect with Effect: 3 (71 CP).
      • This would let the user defend with min(52, 40 + ¼*52) = 52, plus Earth Walls +(Effect*AB): 52 + (3 * 6) = 70.
      • With Elemental Advantage (against a Water ninjutsu), the user gets an additional +3*AB, and defends at = 88.
      • They save 40 CP.
    • If the ninjutsu-spec jounin instead had Earth Wall 30 (max Effect: 2), they could only increase the Effect to 2.
But if that rule is actually in effect, then yes, it would make buying e.g. CotR up to 20 and then the two Apprentice stunts seem like a good idea.
 
Actually a great idea, would let Kei cast CotWG at effect 5 for 87 chakra instead of 113.
Wait, but why would the Shadow Apprentice Stunt apply a bonus to Wind Ninjutsu? I thought it only applied the bonus of the highest ninjutsu in element you bought to ninjutsu of that same element?

Esit: Ninja'd. Need to start refreshing the page before I upload
 
Two notes:
  • For all stunts here, the Elemental Advantage bonus counts as a buff.
  • For every additional Element you have, the requirements to acquire one of these stunts drops by 5 levels.
  • E.g. with 4 Elements, the requirements would drop by 15 levels, so you could learn Elemental Master with 3x level 45 skills in a given Element.

Okay, how hard can it be to invent our own elements? Let's start with Antimatter Element.
I have also had this idea, though not with that specific example!
The end goal of this line of questioning is wondering whether there are actually a fixed number of elements at all. There are a lot of elements on the Seventh Path, and some of them overlap (e.g. Sun Element and Star Element). I think it's worth at least considering the hypothesis that it's actually possible to create new elements with Technique Hacking or some evolution thereof. It's unlikely, because if it was possible we'd expect people to be doing it, but Primordial Sealing provides precedent for incredibly powerful lost arts, and the elements having been created artificially would explain Oro's mystery of why chakra "expresses itself in these particular, discrete forms".

This is probably an incredibly long-term thing that we'll never get to in the timeline of the quest. However, if and when we unlock Minatosealing and level it a bit, it might be worth investigating whether we can use it to cheat our way into new elements without actually learning them properly. If we can, it might conceivably be possible to use a Minatoseal to generate the supposedly-necessary "seed" for an exotic element and then use that as a basis to learn the element. It's pretty unlikely, but I think it's worth keeping in mind.

Also, a thought that I've had for a while, which would be highly amusing if it were true: what if there's actually no such thing as bloodline elements, or special nature chakra elements, or anything like that? What if every single Element is actually learnable by every ninja, and it's just that no one's ever tried?

Like, this sounds ridiculous. But from what we know of learning an Element, there isn't really any way to check your progress; one day, you just go from not being able to do it to being able to do it. So presumably, trying and failing to learn a nonstandard Element would still mean spending the 1000XP, just without any reward at the end. And there aren't that many ninja in the world, and even fewer who'd have enough access to a nonstandard element teacher to even try. If you believed you couldn't do it, would you really throw away 1000 XP just on the off chance everything you'd ever been told was wrong?

And suppose you did. Suppose you did this completely crazy thing, and it worked, and you got a nonstandard Element out of it. Would you ever tell anyone that? Would the clan you learned it from ever let the secret get out that their Element wasn't actually tied to their bloodline?

It doesn't seem all that likely. But despite how weird the idea sounds, I don't think we can definitively rule it out.
 
Uhh, I'm really not a fan of the "discuss our main plans going forward" section.
That's fair and I get it, but we do need to sanity-check the idea at some point.
Also, I'm not nearly as certain as you are that Kei will have no useful input whatsoever.

If you want to condense the section so we can add another scene*, I'm all ears, but some version of "hey Kei, we're considering Yoink, what to you think?" should go in the plan.


*I'd love to get some more focus on Tenten now that she joined team Uplift, for example.
 
@Left-Hand Mutant I would keep in mind that Tenten, a ninja with meaningful loyalties to Leaf, is with us here (and for that matter, everyone on Team Uplift has made connections to Leaf's populace - even Kagome). I know we're only talking to Kei and Snowflake, but we should try to not act as though we're biased to the "Yoink" plan; at the least, we should at least attempt to critically assess the potential cons of the plan.
 
nah, we don't need bigger explosions or more energetic volatile fuel-sources at this point, that's what we've got runes for. we need to go conceptual.

we need to invent the Treason Element
 
@Left-Hand Mutant I would keep in mind that Tenten, a ninja with meaningful loyalties to Leaf, is with us here (and for that matter, everyone on Team Uplift has made connections to Leaf's populace - even Kagome). I know we're only talking to Kei and Snowflake, but we should try to not act as though we're biased to the "Yoink" plan; at the least, we should at least attempt to critically assess the potential cons of the plan.
Or at least pitch it to Mari, alone, before anyone else.
 
If you want to condense the section so we can add another scene*, I'm all ears, but some version of "hey Kei, we're considering Yoink, what to you think?" should go in the plan.
I'd replace the entire "Kei/Snowflake" section with this:
  • Sanity-check with Kei, Snowflake, and Mari:
    • We're considering an alternative to our initial plan. Instead of returning to Leaf, we strike O'Uzu and yoink the rift ourselves.
      • Sufficiently-scaled Remote Explosivers, plus something to solve the rune-transportation problem, should suffice.
      • Even if there's an Akatsuki pair at O'Uzu. (Unless it's Konan.) Just saturation-bomb everything, before they can properly react.
    • Pros:
      • Doesn't risk the rift falling under Orochimaru's total control. (Consider: what if Tsunade/Naruto die when facing Akatsuki?)
      • It's somewhat easier. We'd need to kill only 0-2 Akatsuki, and then we'd have no time limit.
      • We might be able to disguise it as a sealing failure (if Sasori's unwise enough to infuse at O'Uzu), or even covertly replace the afterlife rift with a different rift. In the latter case, the Akatsuki won't even know there's been hostile action.
    • Cons: We'd have no Leaf S-ranker support.
    • Is this at all viable?
@RandomOTP, any chance you can generate ideas for some cute Snowflake and/or Tenten scenes? (I tried to come up with some myself, but the kind of date ideas I come up with are only appropriate for Ami.)
 
Kei/Kagome leave a summon behind to destroy it.
I ain't voting for this while this line is here boss. Kagome's Summons are barely tolerable but I would literally rather leave the expended rune behind.

@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped

Any chance we could get a up/downcheck on this Declare before we spend more time discussing it?

Declare: before abandoning the Storm Rune, Hazou asked Kei to pick the best way to destroy the leftover crystal, then did that. Hazou's ideas were:
  • Hide a LFE beneath the Storm rune
  • Leave a Remote Explosive on an SCSA'd skytower so someone(Kei?) can stay behind and destroy it
  • Kei/Kagome leave a summon behind to destroy it.

*I'd love to get some more focus on Tenten now that she joined team Uplift, for example
Offer to teach her Sealing, she seemed interested in it when Kagome was giving his spiel.
 
Cons: We'd have no Leaf S-ranker support.
I would argue that this should say "We'd have no support beyond what we personally have with us now".

Also, we should point out that this would be unarguably treason and not officially-treason like we're doing right now. I know it doesn't matter much in the grand scheme of things, but we should at least show we're aware of it.
 
I would argue that this should say "We'd have no support beyond what we personally have with us now".

Also, we should point out that this would be unarguably treason and not officially-treason like we're doing right now. I know it doesn't matter much in the grand scheme of things, but we should at least show we're aware of it.
Nah Naruto said it was fine. Specifically mentioned it as an option that we could take.
 
I ain't voting for this while this line is here boss. Kagome's Summons are barely tolerable but I would literally rather leave the expended rune behind.
You still haven't explained why you care so much about this. The Pangolins are going to find out anyway once we get around to fixing the Great Seal, why does it matter if they find out a bit earlier?

Offer to teach her Sealing, she seemed interested in it when Kagome was giving his spiel.
This might be interesting as a question about whether she's interested in learning once we're no longer on the run. I don't think we can justify spending the clone-hours to teach her at the moment, and she should probably be focusing on combat stats anyway.
 
You still haven't explained why you care so much about this. The Pangolins are going to find out anyway once we get around to fixing the Great Seal, why does it matter if they find out a bit earlier?
Pantsaa is one of our main enemies, imagine him leaking the info to the Leopards. Akatsuki has contacts on the Seventh Path. I don't want word getting out there before they're dead. Right now they don't view Hazou as a threat. But if that changes we'll be much worse off. They could go into high alert around the Rift etc.

I don't mind Pantsaa finding out we fixed the Great Seal after the fact. On that timeline Akatsuki are very dead.

Right now this sealing failure could be anyone. But confirmation that Hazou is making runes would be very bad for us.
 
Pantsaa is one of our main enemies, imagine him leaking the info to the Leopards. Akatsuki has contacts on the Seventh Path. I don't want word getting out there before they're dead. Right now they don't view Hazou as a threat. But if that changes we'll be much worse off. They could go into high alert around the Rift etc.

Right now this sealing failure could be anyone. But confirmation that Hazou is making runes would be very bad for us.
Huh. That is a good point.
 
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