A single tournament isn't going to improve multiple of Kakara's skills no matter how many activities we shove into it, and Kakara still has no IC reason to think it's going to be more effective than just training.
Dragon Ball: After the End
Quest
The Great One
- Location
- Everywhere
You've got the wrong idea. I'm just giving different ideas to increase different skills, not saying we can increase loads of skills with one action.
That aside, I disagree with the last statement. Why wouldn't Kakara think practical application of a skill increase it? Isn't that kind of the point? Plus, IC we won't be doing all this to increase our skill. We'd throw a party or a social gathering to get to know the saiyins under us, which would be useful on it's own and the communication skill would increase because we'd be using it.
- Location
- The Great Beyond
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
The current wards have been indicated to be strained at multiple points by SSJ1s. Held, but strained. It's very easy to infer, therefore, that a SSJ2 might simply break the wards outright ruining them and revealing their existence.
Firstly, I don't think a nine year old is going to think "let's have a party so I can get to know my future underlings", and secondly, Kakara has no reason to assume that a single party/single tournament should improve Kakara's skills more than a single day of training/a single day of tal
- Location
- USA
If they can build wards that can stand up to the current scions why not better ones? Sure it would take a lot of time and effort but they've been on the planet more than long enough. It may be in the background but I'm not seeing any indication that they're working on better one so the Scions can train to higher levels in safety. If anything it seems like they're satisfied with the status quo.
- Location
- The Great Beyond
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
This is fallacious. In the real world, we can build armor to hold up to light caliber guns, so why don't we have armor that shrugs off tank shells and nukes?
Not everything is infinitely scaling, it's entirely possible that, for whatever reason, it's not possible to strengthen the wards to hold up to much more than they already do- in which case SSJ2 with it's massive power boost is entirely out of the question.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
I just want to note that I found this hilarious. I let out maniacal laughter when I read it.
Also, with regards to Super Saiyan 2, I'm not sure it even matters that it's illegal. I mean, it wouldn't really be possible to punish the Super Saiyan 2 without going Super Saiyan 2 yourself, and in that case you've really lost the moral/legal high ground. It'd likely cause widespread instability, but if someone's going to break the laws and do it, I doubt they're going to care about that either.
- Location
- The Great Beyond
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
It matters in terms of allowed research and so on, though.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
It would however, destroy the social system. Which means we'll soon have a swarm of SSJs to contend with, unless we're willing to go full tyrant and kill anyone as soon as we sense they've gone SSJ.
- Location
- The Great Beyond
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
While researching the thread for reasons, I noticed this.
Which is it? You said we do have it, re-invented, early in the thread, but more recently said we don't.
Which is it? You said we do have it, re-invented, early in the thread, but more recently said we don't.
- Location
- Australia
@PoptartProdigy
Can we carry a capsule with body armour in it? After the Final Flash, Cell hit Vegeta so hard in the back that it knocked the Super Saiyan out of him when he hit the ground but his armour wasn't even cracked, so it's durable enough to have at least some protection even at our approximate power level.
On that same note, can we carry sunglasses around? Solar Flare is a bitch when used against you and sunglasses stop it dead in its tracks.
What does increasing Ki Projections/Talents as a whole do? Just provide bonuses to training the skills under them?
If we were to fight two people who were each half as powerful as us at once, would it be more efficient to use Multiform so that we can use Duelling instead of Crowd Fighting?
Goku learned a kind of battle precognition in Korin Tower that didn't rely on ki or sorcery. Any chance we could do the same, except we use our exceptional ki sense/control to boost its potency?
Can we carry a capsule with body armour in it? After the Final Flash, Cell hit Vegeta so hard in the back that it knocked the Super Saiyan out of him when he hit the ground but his armour wasn't even cracked, so it's durable enough to have at least some protection even at our approximate power level.
On that same note, can we carry sunglasses around? Solar Flare is a bitch when used against you and sunglasses stop it dead in its tracks.
What does increasing Ki Projections/Talents as a whole do? Just provide bonuses to training the skills under them?
If we were to fight two people who were each half as powerful as us at once, would it be more efficient to use Multiform so that we can use Duelling instead of Crowd Fighting?
Goku learned a kind of battle precognition in Korin Tower that didn't rely on ki or sorcery. Any chance we could do the same, except we use our exceptional ki sense/control to boost its potency?
Last edited:
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
It almost certainly did rely on ki. Considering how things developed later.
- Location
- Australia
My mistake then, but considering how much better we are at ki than him we might be able to take the technique to new heights.
I'm not sure if we're better at controlling our ki than Goku (I wouldn't bet on it, though), but we're almost certainly not better at sensing ki than he was. The guy could sense the ki of King Kai from Earth, and it was implied he could have sensed the Namekians ki from Earth if he had known in which direction Namek was (he could certainly sense their ki from King Kai's planet), so I'd actually bet on Kakara being worse at sensing ki than Goku.
- Location
- Australia
We're definitely better at controlling our ki. Remember when he was showing off FPSS to Korin and how long it took just to get to half power? We can set it at any level we want in a heartbeat and turn our ki liquidy.
The guy had actually been to King Kai's place, though, and there's nothing to suggest Kakara isn't capable of sensing ki at multi-lightyear distances either. She's just never had a reason to focus on sensing other planets.
Bakkasama
There is always a greater fool
- Location
- Buenos Aires, Argentina
- Pronouns
- He/his
Actually, that is not really the case. In Korin Tower, the lesson was to fight better by thinking ahead and predicting what the opponent would do by reading their movements. No precognition or ki involved, just skill.
What did relly on ki was when Mr. Popo taught him to fight and sense what the enemy would do... but that wasn't precognition. That was the intended application of ki sensing, to be able to keep track of the enemy at high speeds as long as they don't completely outclass you.
It was no special technique and by the time Vegeta arrived all Z fighters could do it.
Compliant Omake: Excerpts From: "A Military History..."
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
Excerpts from "A Military History of the Role of Champion Mutants in Galactic Warfare".
Although it would seem strange to modern ears, for the majority of Galactic History, Champions served a primarily defensive role. Current theories of course emphasize the offensive potential of Champions, but the primarily defensive use of Champions arose from a confluence of factors:
Firstly; the relative rarity of champions. When a principality has at most one or two champions to it's name then it makes sense to focus them on defensive roles. Champions are defined by their ability to take entire armies at once, and ensuring that the political center (usually a prince or elected official) was safe from other armies or assassins usually took precedence over their more offensive uses.
Secondly; the inability of champions to make effective use of ground. Unlike an army, a champion can only be in one place at a time and can only pay attention to a relatively small number of things at once. To ensure a conquered population doesn't rebel and keeps producing and paying taxes requires an army, which can be in many places at once and can pay attention to many things at once. Thus in eras where the capture of populations or economic infrastructure are the aims of war, rather than just looting existing riches, an offensive use of Champions are contraindicated. As most space faring populations are industrialized societies, this covered most interplanetary forms of warfare.
…
The status of the Galactic Patrol as the only large scale group of champions was for many millenia the core of the Galactic King's power and influence.
…
The arrival of the Saiyans to the galactic scene upended the previously prevailing conventional wisdom on the use of champions. While small in number compared to most space faring species, the Saiyans were unique in that all of them were on the level of champions from the perspective of other races.
When the Saiyans went to war as a society against another polity, as against the Histians, the offensive potential of champions was amply demonstrated for the galaxy to see. In this author's opinion, however, the more influential aspect of the Saiyan presence was their penchant for acting as mercenaries.
With the supply of Champions greatly increased, the ability to use them offensively likewise increased. While the defensive use of champions remained, and indeed many Saiyan mercenaries were hired to counter other Saiyan mercenaries, many times the Saiyans were hired in the first place to devastate enemy lines and allow armies to exploit the created openings.
…
The military theories of this era most resemble our modern ones, as in this era most polities sought to make use of territories they conquered. In our own time the self proclaimed Emperor Frigid is a warlord in this vein, which is very different from that of his ancestor King Cooler's brother Freeza, who I shall examine in a later chapter.
…
The high prices commanded by Saiyan mercenaries also enticed many champions to form their own mercenary groups. This would lay the groundwork for what came later.
…
The deathknell of the defensive use of Champions came with the rise of the Planetary Trade Organization. While entire books can and have been written on Lord Freeza's real estate scam, we are here interested in only it's military implications. I will however provide a simplified explanation of it's mode of operation for those who are not already familiar with it.
As Freeza had little interest in keeping the territory his underlings conquered, he was freely able to use champions to their fullest offensive potential: exterminating entire planetary populations. Instead of using the planet himself, he would sell it to the highest bidder, often at a massive profit.
At first the primary military might of the PTO lay in Freeza himself, for he was the most powerful Mutant Champion of his time, but he soon accumulated enough money to hire increasing numbers of mercenaries to exterminate ever more planets. The PTO only truly became the galactic superpower it is remembered as when Freeza managed to convince King Vegeta the Sixth to swear fealty to him, to the later reget of King Vegeta the Seventh and the Saiyans as a whole.
…
In this era, dominated as it was by the PTO, armies themselves came to be seen as superfluous, even wasteful.
…
The Era of the PTO came to an end following Freeza's defeat on Namek and then death on Earth, although the organization itself would survive for another decade or so as they attempted to maintain their holdings in the face of advancing military technology and increasing relevance of armies.
...
Although it would seem strange to modern ears, for the majority of Galactic History, Champions served a primarily defensive role. Current theories of course emphasize the offensive potential of Champions, but the primarily defensive use of Champions arose from a confluence of factors:
Firstly; the relative rarity of champions. When a principality has at most one or two champions to it's name then it makes sense to focus them on defensive roles. Champions are defined by their ability to take entire armies at once, and ensuring that the political center (usually a prince or elected official) was safe from other armies or assassins usually took precedence over their more offensive uses.
Secondly; the inability of champions to make effective use of ground. Unlike an army, a champion can only be in one place at a time and can only pay attention to a relatively small number of things at once. To ensure a conquered population doesn't rebel and keeps producing and paying taxes requires an army, which can be in many places at once and can pay attention to many things at once. Thus in eras where the capture of populations or economic infrastructure are the aims of war, rather than just looting existing riches, an offensive use of Champions are contraindicated. As most space faring populations are industrialized societies, this covered most interplanetary forms of warfare.
…
The status of the Galactic Patrol as the only large scale group of champions was for many millenia the core of the Galactic King's power and influence.
…
The arrival of the Saiyans to the galactic scene upended the previously prevailing conventional wisdom on the use of champions. While small in number compared to most space faring species, the Saiyans were unique in that all of them were on the level of champions from the perspective of other races.
When the Saiyans went to war as a society against another polity, as against the Histians, the offensive potential of champions was amply demonstrated for the galaxy to see. In this author's opinion, however, the more influential aspect of the Saiyan presence was their penchant for acting as mercenaries.
With the supply of Champions greatly increased, the ability to use them offensively likewise increased. While the defensive use of champions remained, and indeed many Saiyan mercenaries were hired to counter other Saiyan mercenaries, many times the Saiyans were hired in the first place to devastate enemy lines and allow armies to exploit the created openings.
…
The military theories of this era most resemble our modern ones, as in this era most polities sought to make use of territories they conquered. In our own time the self proclaimed Emperor Frigid is a warlord in this vein, which is very different from that of his ancestor King Cooler's brother Freeza, who I shall examine in a later chapter.
…
The high prices commanded by Saiyan mercenaries also enticed many champions to form their own mercenary groups. This would lay the groundwork for what came later.
…
The deathknell of the defensive use of Champions came with the rise of the Planetary Trade Organization. While entire books can and have been written on Lord Freeza's real estate scam, we are here interested in only it's military implications. I will however provide a simplified explanation of it's mode of operation for those who are not already familiar with it.
As Freeza had little interest in keeping the territory his underlings conquered, he was freely able to use champions to their fullest offensive potential: exterminating entire planetary populations. Instead of using the planet himself, he would sell it to the highest bidder, often at a massive profit.
At first the primary military might of the PTO lay in Freeza himself, for he was the most powerful Mutant Champion of his time, but he soon accumulated enough money to hire increasing numbers of mercenaries to exterminate ever more planets. The PTO only truly became the galactic superpower it is remembered as when Freeza managed to convince King Vegeta the Sixth to swear fealty to him, to the later reget of King Vegeta the Seventh and the Saiyans as a whole.
…
In this era, dominated as it was by the PTO, armies themselves came to be seen as superfluous, even wasteful.
…
The Era of the PTO came to an end following Freeza's defeat on Namek and then death on Earth, although the organization itself would survive for another decade or so as they attempted to maintain their holdings in the face of advancing military technology and increasing relevance of armies.
...
Last edited:
Actually having been at King Kai's place only meant he knew roughly where it was in the afterlife, he still had to sense King Kai's ki himself, and there's absolutely nothing in Kakara's skill description for Ki Sense that implies she can sense ki at multi-lightyear distances either (and since I don't think anyone but King Kai and Goku have done it in canon, I don't think it's easy at all). In fact, given that the description implies it's impressive to be able to sense someone over the horizon, I doubt she could sense the ki of anyone outside the Garenhuld solar system.
Last edited:
- Location
- Australia
Lore mistake here. The King Vegeta who won the Saiyan-Tuffle war was the same King Vegeta who knelt to Frieza and fathered Prince Vegeta - the guy who in turn fathered Trunks Briefs. There was no "King Vegeta the Seventh" because there were no more kings after him.
Last edited:
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
Where is that explicitly stated? Because this isn't in the manga at all.
Last edited:
- Location
- Australia
Might've been in some anime filler or a movie as far as the Saiyan-Tuffle war went, but the guy who bent the knee to Frieza was definitely Vegeta's father, King Vegeta. I think it was covered in the Bardock Special.
fakedit: I think we saw King Vegeta fighting the Tuffles when King Kai was telling Goku about the Saiyans, but I'm not certain.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
Having just watched that episode in the last week, I can tell you for sure that you are wrong. It has an entirely different Saiyan shaking hands with an alien who definitely isn't Freeza.
That one isn't such a big deal as the saiyan tuffle war thing. Given how long Vegeta said Saiyans stay in their prime for in Super, then the Saiyans could have been part of the PTO for as much as 60 to 70 years. More than enough for multiple generations to do the "send kid to planet to destroy it when they grow up" thing. I think I'll change that bit then.
- Location
- Australia
That guy could've just been an ambassador or something. Not necessarily the king. No way to tell, really.
Last edited: