So, I,
@googlyeyesultra and
@OfSpaceandTime had an interesting talk on Discord a few hours ago and i thought i might organize and bring the salient points here.
It started with a bit of theorizing about how wishing dragon works, how we would go about getting some dragonballs for Garenhuld, if we could trust Dazarel as a wishing dragon (answer: probably not for quite some time, me no likey evil genie
) the origins of shenron (Did Kami meet a dragon on Earth to change into a wishing dragon? did an ancient dragon make some kind of pact with an ancestor of Kami so that he was able to summon his spirit to make the earth dragonballs? Maybe Porunga was bound to Guru's family while Shenron was bound to Kami's one, as he's basically the only living namekian who is NOT a child of the old Guru...), could we get a Guardian for the planet, should it be a namekian (and possibly dragon balls maker) or a saiyan..
@Deathbybunnies was also part of this conversation.
Then the REAL talk started.
The following discussion had more or less two sides to it: Me and OfspaceandTime brought up a few ideas, and googlyeyesultra was more or less the loyal opposition/ devil's advocate.
Just to be clear, I believe googly had quite a few good points. I expect he'll write them here later on if I happen to forget or misrepresent some of them.
So, the conversation went more or less like this.
At some point we're going to go back to Garenhuld. Assuming we'll be able to deal with Dandeer, we'll have to take back our scion duties, and that includes dealing with a new problem of our own making.
The Senzu, and how we gave them leave to pursue the super saiyan transformation.
Now I very much doubt we'll have trouble convincing Berra to pardon them, as WE gave them permission and...well.. Dandeer.
But what comes after that?
A few possibilities have been raised. I'll list them here, and invite anyone to express their opinion (and
@OfSpaceandTime and
@googlyeyesultra to add whatever i forgot)
not all the options are mutually exclusive.
1) We could try to go back to how things were before. We pardon the Senzu, give them some reward to better define later on, reestablish the rule of Lord Goku and Lord Vegeta (either Yammar if alive, Vegeta if we discover proof that his behaviour was Dandeer's fault, or Jaffur if nobody else is left), and generally try to go back to the situation we had before Dandeer.
Every Senzu that achieves ssj is forbidden to train his pl and forbidden to transform as it would be done for any accidental super saiyan.
I personally am not a fan of this idea, and I'd much prefer one of the following options.
2)We award Raditz Senzu Lord status, making him the lord of the third clan(either Clan Senzu or Clan Raditz (or, if we want to complete the trinity, Clan Gohan))
That has a few advantages in my opinion.
First of all this allows us to raise the number of super saiyan we can field without making any dangerous modification to super saiyan regulation. We get a new lord/lady, a new scion, and in time a new patriarch/matriarch.
Second, three lords allows for a tiebreaker whenever two lords are in disagreement over something.
Third... it feels right, narratively speaking. Also the Senzu deserve a big reward for their role against Dandeer, and they're factually the ones that did the most against her other than Kakara. Yammar tried, but... well... he was stupid and impulsive and Dandeer got to him.
This also has an historical precedent: Endivan was offered lord status for his service against that renegade super saiyan, even if he refused in the end.
The main problems, in my opinion, are two:
a) where does the new clan get subordinate houses? We could either allow some houses to change their allegiance from clan Goku and Vegeta to the new clan, or simply let them gather new houses over time, letting new houses formed by young saiyans who decide to leave their own to join them.
Or we could even let it be a houseless clan, basically making them the tiebreaker between clan Goku and Vegeta.
b)How do we deal with their monopoly on senzu beans? I think that giving house Senzu BOTH clan status AND the monopoly on Senzu would be a mistake. It's too much power. I'd suggest having them give up on something. Either they give up monopoly on the senzu, sharing the secret with the other two Lords (making the Senzu a secret shared between the Lords/Scions), or we make it so that the new clan would be lesser in some way, possibly limiting them to tiebreakers in the decisions and/or giving them fewer houses to rule over (or even none at all).
I think clan status should be worth the senzu secret to them. Leaving the secret in the hands of only one family is dangerous. Even if this time they were in the right we SAW how their going into hiding meant that there were no more senzu beans around.
All of those things should be discussed between the lords, the patriarch/matriarch, the scions and Raditz before anything is said to the public of course.
Another separate but related discussion was about another problem: the longer we go on, the more threats we'll have to deal with, and the only relevant people in exile society are going to be the super saiyans. The other are simply too weak to contribute against villains on Dazarel's level.
In all of Garenhuld there are, at most, 6 (allowed) FPSSJ at a time. That worked for a small society separated from the rest of the Galaxy, but it's not going to be enough any longer. Also Spirit Saiyan would benefit a lot from having access to more ssj ki sources.
We (probably) need more super saiyans, and we need a way to relax the ssj ban without having the exile society unravel and fall into chaos. Elevating house Senzu to clan status is a first step, probably the least controversial one we could take. But there are other options we could consider
The first one was my basic idea. the second one was
@OfSpaceandTime 's idea, and in the end I like it even more than mine.
1) A council of super saiyans. We establish some requirements for people to try and get permission to achieve the super saiyan form (including but not limited to a seer check, similar to what scions get), and the super saiyans form a "council" that works as a limiter on the Lord's power, kind of like a parliament and a constitution limit the power of a king in constitutional monarchies.
Let's be real: Democracy can't work for a Saiyan society. Saiyans, no matter if good or bad, usually tend to respect power above nearly anything else.
It would be incredibly hard to get the saiyan people to listen to the rule of a weak person. So why don't we bring the strong (and vetted by seers, and that passed some to-be-determined requirements, into the government?)
Powers, duties and limitations that this "council" would have, and how they could aid OR oppose the lords is something to better be defined later, after a lot more discussions, IF this system ever gets applied.
Of course there's a chance such a council could become an obstacle to us, but between Kakara's communication skills, her reputation as "The Golden", "The Spirit Saiyan", her role in Dandeer's defeat and how she established contacts with the namekians, possibly the only natural allies of the exile saiyans in the whole universe, + her good relationship with both the Senzu and ESPECIALLY Jaffur (which, I'll remember you, has a social defense against Kakara equal to
)... We'd have such an enormous amount of soft AND hard power that I don't think we'd have to worry about it for quite some time.
A system of this kind will probably become necessary at some point. The current exile government is not stable, and it's not meant to deal with such a huge number of saiyans. But we might want to wait to consider such a radical change for more than one reason. It might be better to have such a system be established only AFTER the Enemy has been dealt with, leaving it basically as an epilogue thing that won't affect us directly.
This still leaves us with the problem of "where/how do we get more super saiyans, and how do we keep them under control/on our side?"
That's where
@OfSpaceandTime 's proposal comes in.
2)The knight system: Do we need more super saiyans, but we don't want them to interfere with the government? THe easy solution is: let's give the Lords the power to pick a few (one minimum three maximum I'd say) excellent and trusted warriors and elevate them to the rank of House knights.
A mix of bodyguards, sparring partners for lords and scions, enforcers of the Lords will and Right hands, this would allow us to raise the number of super saiyans we can field without changing our government system too much or too fast. If we ever end up going with the council system the knights could become part of it, if we don't we still get more strong warriors which can also help the scions and Lords to train (let's face it, having there only being ONE POSSIBLE RIVAL/CHALLENGE for any scion/lord has to be a problem. Some variety might very well lead to better training results).
If we don't end up with the Senzu elevated to House status this could also be a potential reward for Raditz: He could easily be the first Vegetan knight (Jaffur would certainly approve, as I think would Yammar), and Perika could become the first Gokun one.
Tabe, once he matures a bit, is another possible candidate.
And, as for any other ssj candidate, similar decisions should be passed by a seer, just in case. Of course Kakara is a seer, soooooo...
well, and that's it for the Senzu/SSJ discussion. another couple of things we'll have to discuss in the future
1) we need more sorcerers and seers. It has been stated that some saiyans with those invaluable gifts ignore them/refuse to train them simply because of the racism/classism in the exile society. This can't be allowed to continue. We'll have to find ways to fight the prejudice against not-ki-fighters saiyans.
To start with we can press Jaffur's and Dandelor's importance against Dandeer. If we can import Namekian magical knowledge that might help as well. I think they were mostly focused on creation, healing and unlocking, and good enough creation mages can make Katchin, which could possibly allow us to try and go for SSJ2 and above.
2)At some point we might want to consider creating some kind of school for sorcerers and seers, hogwarts style. Of course we'd need said sorcerers and seers to trust us NOT to persecute them.
3)IF Yammar is dead we'll probably want to bring him back to life at some point. On that note we might want to bring back all the vegetan sorcerer Dandeer killed.
4)We'll have to start to think on what wish we want from Porunga next time. I am mostly in favour of a portable Hyperbolic time chamber, without years/number restrictions if possible and with the highest time dilation possible. I've heard people proposing a more simple wish to bring us back to Garenhuld, or a wish to break Dandeer's spells or remove her magic powers. I'm sure there are other valid (and some less valid) ideas
And with this I think I'm done for now. Let's see whay everyone else has to say!
Ah, also I got a clarification on a doubt I had: if we ever get Papata Fren to teach us her communication elite talent, that would become part of our "exception" skill. In other words, it wouldn't consume our elite talent slot or bring our skill to elite by itself.
for combat elite talents thouse usually give birth to new skills when shared (ki overcharge and ki refinement, shin kikoho if we go with a more ancient example...), that wouldn't happen to communication for the sake of keeping things simpler outside of the combat system.
EDIT:
@Parzival95 also took part in the conversation on discord, though only in the later part. He mostly pushed for putting a hard cap on the potential number of councilors, which made me think of a knight system.
