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Not with her horde of meat puppets on us we can't. What I meant was, even if Dandeer threw every Saiyan on the planet at us, it wouldn't matter because Kakara would mow them down anyway. Yammar's 'You're weak.' speech had a point. So we should get so strong that nobody can do anything to us without mind controlling us, which we're far too paranoid to ever allow at this point. If everybody's incompetent, do what Goku did. Get strong enough that even if you're the only one who can, you can contest the big bad.
Yammar's speech had basically 0 point. He might have thought it did, but he was pretty much wrong; while we could have focused more on straight ki combat over tricks, the tricks we had are really good. Did we mess up the fight? Sure. Doesn't change the fact that even without spare time, the only one who can meaningfully oppose us without starting in melee range is our dad.

Like, instead of going off to train for decades, coming, back, and powering up to fight them all, we could figure out how to break dandeer's seal, instant transmit away, and then win from there against the entire saiyan race combined.
 
And how do you propose to do that while avoiding the enemy?
Step 1: Learn Time Skip
Step 2: Master combat precognition
Step 3: Profit

Seriously the combination of those two alone seems near unbeatable.

Time Skip can only be beaten if your enemy has absurdly higher PL than you do and can move in the stopped time or they are good enough to predict your movements in advance of the skip a la Goku.

Since our main enemies are unlikely to be stronger than us as we all have the same cap on power level, prediction is the key and if we can see what their prediction is in advance what can touch us?
 
Yammar's speech had basically 0 point. He might have thought it did, but he was pretty much wrong; while we could have focused more on straight ki combat over tricks, the tricks we had are really good. Did we mess up the fight? Sure. Doesn't change the fact that even without spare time, the only one who can meaningfully oppose us without starting in melee range is our dad.

Like, instead of going off to train for decades, coming, back, and powering up to fight them all, we could figure out how to break dandeer's seal, instant transmit away, and then win from there against the entire saiyan race combined.
We should work more on that Ki trick Jaffur uses when we get the chance.
 
Yammar's speech had basically 0 point. He might have thought it did, but he was pretty much wrong; while we could have focused more on straight ki combat over tricks, the tricks we had are really good. Did we mess up the fight? Sure. Doesn't change the fact that even without spare time, the only one who can meaningfully oppose us without starting in melee range is our dad.

Like, instead of going off to train for decades, coming, back, and powering up to fight them all, we could figure out how to break dandeer's seal, instant transmit away, and then win from there against the entire saiyan race combined.

I think we're talking around each other here. I'm not saying it's necessary for us to be gone for decades, only that we should put heavy focus on training for the forseeable future. Social has, if anything, kind of backfired, since Dazarel seems to have been on Dandeer's side, and getting more people involved in the conspiracy seems to have been the wrong decision, what with Dandeer's 'This person is on my side now.' powers. So, we should get strong enough that it doesn't matter if the entire rest of the meaningful PL-bearing people in our lives are on Dandeer's side, she still can't stop us. Like, a fight between Frieza and Krillin when they first arrived on Namek levels of outclassing our opponents. We trusted the adults to have things handled, and they seriously dropped the ball. It could be argued that we shouldn't try to do everything ourselves, but it's starting to seem like nobody else is really good at anything besides providing Senzu Beans and serving as a distraction.

I suggested going full Krillin during the previous vote, training Heal Beam to act as a walking Senzu Bean dispenser, but I've reversed my position. We should go full Goku. The Senzus and the Misfits can be our Z-Fighters. The ones who slow Vegeta/Frieza/Cell/Buu down while Goku gets there to fight the enemy and/or heal the others up. Jaffur being our Vegeta, as in the one who is usually best able to hold back the enemy as long as he doesn't let his buttons get pressed, in this scenario.
 
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Next thing: people complaining that Dandeer is a boring villain- of course she's a boring villain, you engage with Yammar more than you do with her!

Every time you've been around Dandeer since the Sealing, you have consistently voted to antagonize or evade her. You do not interact with her; you do not investigate her; you do not ask about her. She's been staying in Clan Vegeta, well away from you, as much as she can, and you've been content to leave her well enough alone. I have a lot of work put into this character. What you've seen from her is a very singular side of her. But you have never given me real opportunity to show anything else about her. It hasn't happened. I can't work with that, because -- contrary to opinion -- this is not a fanfic! If I want to show off a character, I need there to be a situation where the player base goes and interacts with them. Dandeer isn't going to willingly interact with you; it's clear you hate her. And you all have never voted to investigate her Clan, and learn about her. So of course she seems flat. That frustrates me too; I've put a lot of work into her that I'm sure is never going to come to light. I feel like I've wasted my time; and worse, that I will never be able to convince people that the waste was not my doing.

The thing is, Dandeer used to be interesting. Back when she was a broken woman who had snapped and decided to try and save the idealized family that she never really had. When she was a flawed mother, who none the less was willing to use every measure of her power to save her family, even if it was destroying them and her people. That was fascinating. It was something so unlike Dragon Ball, but fit so well despite that.

And then you dropped the Sorcerer Massacre bomb, and it turned out she was just evil. That pretty much killed all of my interest in the character right there. She's boring. I understand that you might have pages of notes on how fascinating she is, but we don't have that. To us, she is a millstone around the neck of an excellent story. A boring obstacle we can't surpass because she's the world's most competent idiot, apparently. It is the duty of the writer to figure out a way to make characters interesting, and it is the duty of the GM to work with the players and their choices to make a compelling story.

The conspiracy was entirely a waste of time. We spent all our effort in preparing it, because it was the path we had chosen to beat her, using our social ability, and it was pointless. Because she had already beaten us the moment we chose that path, by subverting everyone. We should have given up two years ago and decided to do something else instead, because we didn't have a chance.

And frankly, this entire situation was handled wrong. This should never have been a combat situation. We, the players, have spent the last two years preparing for a political and social confrontation. We have trained for that situation because, fool us, we expected to need to be good at politics and social in a quest that seems itself as being political and societal.

Suddenly throwing us into a combat situation may have been good writing, but it was not good GMing. A GM needs to base their actions around the players, so as not to give them no win scenarios. And for all of the protestations that we might have still been able to win, it never felt like that.

From the moment we leapt headfirst into combat without a choice, it's felt like we've been desperately diving to avoid a hail of bullet. This update was simply the inevitable moment when we got hit.

Don't we all, thankfully we're leaving this shit hole so hopefully it can actually get fun.
This Shit Hole was the fun. Interacting with our friends and family, helping move along Saiyan society, dealing with our burgeoning political power. There were several very interesting plots just waiting in the wings for this one dragging arc to be over.

We needed to prepare for the alien invasion. We needed to help integrate with human society. We needed to continue training up our friends. We needed to deal with the fallout from Dandeer. We needed to start interacting more with Saiyan society.

All of that is gone now. Many interesting plots thrown out the window. It won't be here when we eventually get back in a few RL years.

The most interesting part of this quest was never the combat, it was playing a Pacifist Saiyan in her quest to make her people better. And we've just lost that. Now it's time for a new quest, one in which Kakara travels the galaxy to become better at punching people.

And frankly? That sounds way less interesting than what we were going to be doing before.
 
This Shit Hole was the fun
Hence why its a shit hole.

It had interesting plots and interesting elements, but as you've said that's all been thrown out the window in the face of Savant Lady Dandeer.

Nothing is more shitty than when a place that was once interesting turns into a hell hole.

I'll admit I don't mind moving on because there's nothing here any more, just wasted potential and salt because we were playing one quest when it turns out we should have been playing another entirely different quest this entire flipping time.
 
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I think Wombat's mostly calling it a shit hole because this is where Dandeer is, if it's any consolation.

Edit: Ninjaed, dammit.
 
Stop: I’m not angry I’m just disappointed
i'm not angry i'm just disappointed Let's try to take this from smallest to largest, shall we?

@Simon_Jester, these:

[Snip invective that I seem to recall being against forum rules]

See, I like how all the defenses of this kind of thing boil down to insulting the quest voters as idiots.

Were rather detrimental to the tone of the thread as a whole. They were small parts of your overall presence in this thread, however, and they amounted to very little compared to some of the other individuals in this thread, so on the whole you have simply received a 0-point infraction.

@Alectai, @paebel, @Carrnage, @EdinoiZ, your posts here:

What a surprise.

And it keeps hammering in that Dandeer is an idiot, which makes the players and literally everyone else in the universe dumber still for being outplayed by her at every turn.

So, yeah, no surprise that everything loses, because the heroes are just too skull splitting stupid to win even against a twelve year old.

At least I know for sure to write this quest off for well written trash now.

I'm mainly a lurker in this quest, and also incredibly salty, but I think the best plan is self-destructing and ashing the planet. Now that's out of the way, I feel like we have three paths before us here: raw spite (ashing the planet), something clever (that I suspect will fail for one reason or another), or just doing what the nice future version of us says.

Take Maya, the Senzus, and... how about that scout from the aliens, to tell us about the wider galaxy?

Major spoiler: vague hints in lieu of an explanation do not make conversations more constructive

I was going to try and leave a constructive comment here, but upon re-reading it I noticed that it quickly devolved into various bullshit things.

SO I am instead going to patiently wait for one of two things; the thread calming down; Poptart stopping by to provide that explanation. Have a great time, everyone!

Were detrimental to the tone of the thread, and as such run afoul of Rule 4. You each have received Staff Notices.

@KnightDisciple, this:

I'm just going to ignore the next 5+ pages of irrational salt and butthurt,

Was uncivil to the other users in this thread and detrimental to its tone to boot. You have received a Staff Notice for running afoul of Rules 3 and 4.

@Doomed Wombat, the attitude and tone of several of your earlier posts, best exemplified here:

Can I just reiterate my desire to leave?

Cause I really want to leave?

What has ever been here for Kakara? Responsibility she didn't ask for, judgemental ass-holes, uncomfortable veneration, the inability to do her own thing, the sins of the past constantly coming back to **** her over.

As far as I can see there were only three things keeping her on this scrap heap, her family, her friends and Jaffur, all three of which are about to be taken away so I say fuck this shit hole.

Lets leave.

Lets go find King Kai, learn interesting techniques, find a better seeing teacher, go to hell, shit if Freeza's down there lets go say hi, maybe he can teach us something.

Lets find the goddamned Namkekians and the dragon balls and wish Dandeer into a bloody fruit assortment.

This is a chance to finally be free of all these assholes and sins of the past!

@PoptartProdigy I'll be blunt I hated this entire arc knowing that it was going to end like this, I knew from the second Dandeer stick her fingers on Yammar and in effect rammed her hand up his backside to use as a puppet, you may deny this and yeah we might have been able to swing it around, but I have been resigned to it for a very long time now, but if this ends with us leaving this place, I'm perfectly fine with that.

When has it ever done anything for Kakara? When has it not been Kakara doing things for it?

Was detrimental to the tone of the thread at large. You have received a 0-point infraction and a 5-day threadban.

@deadcrystal your posts insisting that the matter that initiated this mess was unwinnable from the beginning and later initiating doomsaying about what is happening and what will happen next, examples of which I have linked to here, were phrased and put forward in a manner detrimental to the thread at large. You have received 25 points and a 5 day threadban for violating Rule 4.

@fictionfan these two posts that abruptly proclaimed the whole affair to have been designed to not be winnable, despite the QM's own statements and all prior evidence in the quest contributed to the rapidly-declining tone of the thread. You have received 25 points and a 5 day threadban for violating Rule 4.

@Varano, while it may or may not have been intended as humorous, proposing using an option that would relatively certainly bad-end the quest, when many people were actively discussing using that option explicitly to bad-end the quest, like you did in your post here was detrimental to the tone of the thread. You have received 25 points and a 5 day threadban for violating Rule 4.

@ShadowAngelBeta in your posts, one can see you first actively disparaging the quest here while the thread was rapidly continuing its downward spiral here, contributing to the lowering of the tone in the thread; and then here and here your insisting that the thread was not engaging in rule-breaking material when it rather plainly was, enabling and egging on its descent. This violates Rule 4, and you have received 25 points and a 5 day threadban.

@Gamerlord in addition to an instance of the behavior that has lowered the tone of the thread, this post here has you misgendering @PoptartProdigy. You have participated in this thread long enough that you should have had ample time to learn their preferred pronouns and this is not the first instance of you misgendering someone. You have received 25 points and a 5 day threadban for violating Rules 3 & 4.

@Laundreu, this is your second post in this thread after you had initially claimed to be leaving the thread, and in addition to continuing to throw out arguments phrased in a way that can be hardly anything but deleterious to the tone of the thread you seemingly are continuing to use your claim of leaving the thread as a sort of rhetorical device to defend yourself from having to actually debate or argue your statements. Hopefully your two-month threadban will be long enough for you to decide whether you truly wish to leave the thread or not. You have also received 25 points for violating Rule 4.

@jamie96969, you have made at least seven malicious uses of the "Funny" rating; it is theoretically possible that there are more that I have missed. In any case, for this flagrant misuse of the rating I have given you 50 points for violating Rule 3 and I have revoked your rating privileges for the next 14 days. I will also be deleting the malicious "Funny" ratings you made that I have found.

@NavySeel, your posts, examples of which I have linked here, have contributed significantly to the lowering of the tone in this thread. You have received 50 points and a 7 day threadban for violating Rule 4.

@chryssalideater, across the course of this thread you have engaged in behavior that has lowered the tone of this thread and in frankly uncivil behavior towards @PoptartProdigy. I have included links to an example of each here. You have also maliciously used the "Funny" rating. You have accordingly received 50 points for violating Rule 3 and Rule 4 and you have received a 7 day threadban.

@odin lowe, it appears that you have made roughly two posts in this thread since the thread's downward spiral began. Unfortunately, both violated the rules. This post violated Rule 2 by being a blatant violent revenge fantasy, and this post violated Rule 4 by utterly mischaracterizing @PoptartProdigy 's position. As that is all of your contribution to the thread, you have received 50 points and a 7 day threadban. Please note that while both posts contain entirely separate rule violations, for the sake of convenience the sum total of the infraction is being appended to the most recent of the two posts.

@anailater, the sum total of your recent posts in this thread - some examples of which I have included here - has consisted of Rule 4 violations through mischaracterizing @PoptartProdigy 's statements and generally disrupting and lowering the tone of the thread. As such you have received 50 points and a 14 day threadban.

@gamer50018, you have violated Rule 2 with this post, Rule 3 in this post and through multiple malicious uses of the "Funny" rating, and you have violated Rule 4 many, many times across the recent course of the thread - I have included some examples here. As such you have received 75 points and a 16 day threadban. As in one of the above cases, please note that while you have three distinct aspects to this infraction for the sake of convenience the sum of the infraction has been applied to your most recent rule-breaking post.


and while i'm here @Lailoken, your behavior here has been generally acceptable, but some of your rhetoric has gotten somewhat inflammatory. Please tone down the vitriol in your responses, and you'll be golden here.


official staff communication The thread is now unlocked. Please take note that if the general behaviors that led to the thread lock resume with this unlock, or if those who were temporarily threadbanned resume the behavior which they were threadbanned for once they return to this thread, more severe action will be taken as is necessary.

That will be all. Thank you for your time, and please have a pleasant day~
 
Hey, @PoptartProdigy, while you're here, can Kakara visit Otherworld as a Shade? If so, we should probably ask them where Hit, Buu, and Namek are, since they'd be most likely to know at least the one. Also, does visiting Otherworld as a Shade have deleterious effects as we have no physical body to anchor us to the world of the living?
 
Welp.

...

I am torn between following the plan, and playing as Karen. Both seem fun.

Maya should be gotten away though. Regardless
 
Hey, @PoptartProdigy, while you're here, can Kakara visit Otherworld as a Shade? If so, we should probably ask them where Hit, Buu, and Namek are, since they'd be most likely to know at least the one. Also, does visiting Otherworld as a Shade have deleterious effects as we have no physical body to anchor us to the world of the living?
All excellent questions! Being a shade seems like the best chance for breaking into the Other World, since Kakara's done it before. Kakara doesn't know about bad side effects, though. Presumably, the vision would have mentioned them were they an issue, but it's possible that future you never tried, and thus never thought to mention it.
 
Well, that was unpleasant.

Anway, amongst all... that, there was one piece of criticism that I think had a point(and I can remember):
Starting off you had the confrontation, which made no sense because OH MY FUCKING GOD DISABLE THE FUCKING MIND RAPIST AS YOUR FIRST ACTION BEFORE SHE EVEN KNOWS YOU'RE THERE

Then you have Yammar restraining Dandeer incredibly shittily before Dandeer starts trying to use magic incredibly obviously and everyone just stands there and does nothing. Despite the fact that power level differentials means she should be unconscious before even blinking.

Then Berra attacks the obviously mind-controlled puppet instead of Dandeer because he is a fucking moron and has been for all time.

Then Dandeer summons Vegeta, which again should have been trivially stopped, but again everyone just stands there gormlessly instead of doing a single fucking useful thing.

Then she activates contingency on Berra which should have been stopped because everyone is 500x faster than her but it doesn't because everyone is just a statue.
Now, Poptart has previous explained the reasoning for not immediately taking her down/arresting her, but I am compelled to point out that, IIRC, the players were unaware that would happen, and thus had no opportunity to change that part during the previous votes to do so.

As for "Dandeer having time to cast spells", I don't remember anything being said. I initially considered it might be something like confusion/hesitance, but then I remembered that Kakara has Decisive. A spell that slows people down was also considered, but apparently a speed difference still exists considering the Senzu's. I do see other possibilities, such an automated defence that causes hesitance amongst attackers, or she's somehow speed herself up, but that's conjecture.

I hope we can discuss this calmly?
 
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@PoptartProdigy?

I've been lurking around and following this thread for about a year now, and even though I recently caved and got an actual account I still haven't really participated here beyond the occasional rating. I read the recent update about a day late, so maybe seeing those initial posts all at once had an effect, but I actually tried to sit down and write out my first post to the thread. It was going to be this thing about how we had no right to treat you so badly just for one update that went pretty badly for us, but no matter how I tried to word it I felt like it gave the impression I was attacking the other posters, or being condescending, or going too far in the other direction and not saying anything at all. I decided to come back to it later, but kept putting it off and the thread lock happened before I made any headway.

I guess I just wanted to say that I'm sorry for not trying harder, even though it probably wouldn't have made much difference anyways. I hope you haven't been too discouraged by this mess, your quest is probably tied for second for my all-time favorite ongoing stories and I'd hate to have just sat here watching if this ends up leaving a permanent scar on the thread. I'll try and be more active in here from now on. Thank you for sinking so much time and effort into this story.
 
All excellent questions! Being a shade seems like the best chance for breaking into the Other World, since Kakara's done it before. Kakara doesn't know about bad side effects, though. Presumably, the vision would have mentioned them were they an issue, but it's possible that future you never tried, and thus never thought to mention it.
May I advocate a hail-mary 'give me a write-in to not be knocked out by Yammar' vote? I'm quite sure you tried most of the things we would have proposed, but I'm also pretty sure that we as a thread can outthink one person who had less than a day, no matter how close to human maximum they may be. :p
 
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Well, that was unpleasant.

Anway, amongst all... that, there was one piece of criticism that I think had a point(and I can remember):

Now, Poptart has previous explained the reasoning for not immediately taking her down/arresting her, but I am compelled to point out that, IIRC, the players were unaware that would happen, and thus had no opportunity to change that part during the previous votes to do so.

As for "Dandeer having time to cast spells", I don't remember anything being said. I initially considered it might be something like confusion/hesitance, but then I remembered that Kakara has Decisive. A spell that slows people down was also considered, but apparently a speed difference still exists considering the Senzu's. I do see other possibilities, such an automated defence that causes hesitance amongst attackers, or she's somehow speed herself up, but that's conjecture.

I hope we can discuss this calmly?

I kind of got the impression she had to say like, three words apiece to mindcontrol them because she already had triggers in their heads. That's enough of a delay for the surprise factor of those events happening in rapid succession and some poor background rolls to make it believable for me.
 
May I advocate a hail-mary 'give me a write-in to not be knocked out by Yammar' vote? I'm quite sure you tried most of the things we would have proposed, but I'm also pretty sure that we as a thread can outthink one person who had less than a day, no matter how close to human maximum they may be. :p

Actually, one notes that giving up while Dandeer was still unconcious, spirit transferring out, going to the Senzu castle, soliciting some borrowed time in someone's body, and pumping a spirit bomb in that body while under their wards is... I mean, what odds do you give that?
 
So, for the 'Follow The Plan' option, would we get any benefit from an act of a Despair Speech? Like, pretending this whole mess made Hopeful invert? Or would it be better to just sit there and let her monologue?
 
My private theory is that at no point during the fight were we fighting Dandeer. We were fighting something distant through her.
As for "Dandeer having time to cast spells", I don't remember anything being said. I initially considered it might be something like confusion/hesitance, but then I remembered that Kakara has Decisive. A spell that slows people down was also considered, but apparently a speed difference still exists considering the Senzu's. I do see other possibilities, such an automated defence that causes hesitance amongst attackers, or she's somehow speed herself up, but that's conjecture.

I hope we can discuss this calmly?
My private theory is that at no point during the fight were we fighting Dandeer. We were fighting something distant or else indistinct through her or centered on her that has been pulling strings even when she has no information. I don't know if its a self propagating contingency spell that might not even need the woman to continue or something that is an active puppeteer. It has clearly had its teeth in our brain as much as everyone's for a long time here.

But I think Poptart might have made no error here besides underestimating the effect on player morale and that makes things Lovecraft levels of terrifying. Poptart just can't say anything there because trying to waltz through this minefield blindfolded is the entire point of the game, even if we don't realize it. Everything here seems to be playing with the normal rules of engagement in DBZ in weird ways. Not following them, not denying them, but screwing with them.

Something foul is afoot. And to win we might need to invoke Old Man Henderson at some point.

Any perceived stupid has at least a fifty percent chance of being enemy action.


Hyper-paranoid of me, I know.
 
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I kind of got the impression she had to say like, three words apiece to mindcontrol them because she already had triggers in their heads. That's enough of a delay for the surprise factor of those events happening in rapid succession and some poor background rolls to make it believable for me.
Quite possible!

It's just that I'm looking back at some previous updates, where Kakara and Berra had an entire conversation completely unnoticed, because to them everyone else was standing still.
 
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