Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
@PoptartProdigy How much Ki do those that remain in the Senzu compounds have?
Dragon Ball: After the End
- Location
- Peterborough, NH, USA
Hm, something just occurred to me. Do you suppose that Buu's journeying around the universe and/or Earth's destruction has lead to any backsliding? Or, in the opposite direction, he's been learning to actually use magic properly instead of just relying on his body being magic (and advancing mentally), and become basically Disney's Genie but pink?
Also, how hard do you suppose convincing Hit to teach us how to Time Stop is going to be? Karakara's Communication is... decent by the standards of anyone who isn't a Lord, but it's basically his trump card and signature technique. It would be like Goku teaching Vegeta Kaio Ken. I'm not sure he'd do it even now unless the Enemy had invaded/was about to invade Otherworld.
Another thought. Can we just have Porunga remove Dandeer's ability to use magic? I mean, wishing people back to life seems like it would trump anything we've seen from any other mage in Dragon Ball. I don't trust her not to figure out a way around godly immunity to conventional mind control, especially since I don't know Poptart's stance on Xenoverse's canonicity, and it may well simply shatter all her spells.
Also, how hard do you suppose convincing Hit to teach us how to Time Stop is going to be? Karakara's Communication is... decent by the standards of anyone who isn't a Lord, but it's basically his trump card and signature technique. It would be like Goku teaching Vegeta Kaio Ken. I'm not sure he'd do it even now unless the Enemy had invaded/was about to invade Otherworld.
Another thought. Can we just have Porunga remove Dandeer's ability to use magic? I mean, wishing people back to life seems like it would trump anything we've seen from any other mage in Dragon Ball. I don't trust her not to figure out a way around godly immunity to conventional mind control, especially since I don't know Poptart's stance on Xenoverse's canonicity, and it may well simply shatter all her spells.
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I am dangerously tempted by this, given that I am supremely confident that you all don't have any workable ideas. I don't know if I should be, given the recent mess. I'll think about it.May I advocate a hail-mary 'give me a write-in to not be knocked out by Yammar' vote? I'm quite sure you tried most of the things we would have proposed, but I'm also pretty sure that we as a thread can outthink one person who had less than a day, no matter how close to human maximum they may be.
...hm. Lessee, all the trained fighters are gone and there are about three hundred people who identified sufficiently as, "clan," to come with when they all went under cover. Account for fighting being a very popular pastime in these kinds of conditions...account for Raditz nevertheless having a fair amount of competence in stewardship and societal sustainability...
...a few dozen million units' worth, going by the above fuzziness.
- Location
- Peterborough, NH, USA
That doesn't seem like much of a contribution, but I don't think Shade us will figure out interacting with reality in time to help them out, so...
Hey Poptart, any thoughts on the post above yours?
- Location
- Land of Confusion
I'm not gonna lie, I'm pretty bummed and disturbed by the recent story post. I held off posting in reaction so that I'd only type things I mean, instead of just lashing out.
I think part of the problem is that this whole...thing...has taken well over two months, in our time, to cover a period of...less than five minutes, that Kakara was conscious for? That kind of time investment would be...not fine, but acceptable for most readers, as long as it has a point. As a defeat, however, it's incredibly demoralizing - I'm still contemplating a break from this thread for a few months, in spite of the fact I generally really enjoy your writing, Poptart. Not the least, we STILL, having lost, have no idea why things shook out the way they did, in spite of our future self having contacted us. That's...poor writing, unless you're trying to write a thriller or mystery, I suppose.
Speaking of defeat, why is Dandeer the only NPC involved in this clusterfuck that appears to be able to execute a long-term plan? The players specifically recruited House Senzu, Dandelor, Appra, and (ironically) Yammar to cover for the knowledge and skills Kakara simply hasn't had the time to learn. Throwing Kakara into melee combat against not one, but TWO Super Sayans, is such incredibly poor tactical planning (on the part of the alliance,) that a blind witness would probably be able to see something wrong with it.
Finally, regarding the last chapter - my major remaining problems boil down to two questions, really. One, why couldn't Kakara IT away with Dandeer, instead of choosing to stay in melee combat with a similarly powerful, vastly more skilled and experienced opponent? We'd WON when we laid hands on Dandeer again in that fight, only to piss it away by attempting to pretend we had a chance at winning a fistfight. Two, why didn't Kakara use either her Seer abilities (which were preserved for a desperate spot of trouble, exactly like we were in (tho I acknowledge the player base has been bizarrely unwilling to utilize that ability in this conflict.)) Two, where was Perfect Multiform in this? Why did we poor actions over four years into this ability, only to fail to use it in a critical hour? Obviously, trying to use them against Yammar in a straight up fight would probably be suboptimal, but keeping bodies at range and using Ki blasts to bracket Yammar really should have been a thing. Failing that, Perfect Multiform would have made for a beautiful cover for withdrawing from the fight with Dandeer, and confusing the hell out of Yammar, who we've never seen being noted for his sensing abilities.
I think that's everything I had to say. At this point, I think we'll have to keep moving forward, but I'll probably give this thread a break and catch up some months from now.
I think part of the problem is that this whole...thing...has taken well over two months, in our time, to cover a period of...less than five minutes, that Kakara was conscious for? That kind of time investment would be...not fine, but acceptable for most readers, as long as it has a point. As a defeat, however, it's incredibly demoralizing - I'm still contemplating a break from this thread for a few months, in spite of the fact I generally really enjoy your writing, Poptart. Not the least, we STILL, having lost, have no idea why things shook out the way they did, in spite of our future self having contacted us. That's...poor writing, unless you're trying to write a thriller or mystery, I suppose.
Speaking of defeat, why is Dandeer the only NPC involved in this clusterfuck that appears to be able to execute a long-term plan? The players specifically recruited House Senzu, Dandelor, Appra, and (ironically) Yammar to cover for the knowledge and skills Kakara simply hasn't had the time to learn. Throwing Kakara into melee combat against not one, but TWO Super Sayans, is such incredibly poor tactical planning (on the part of the alliance,) that a blind witness would probably be able to see something wrong with it.
Finally, regarding the last chapter - my major remaining problems boil down to two questions, really. One, why couldn't Kakara IT away with Dandeer, instead of choosing to stay in melee combat with a similarly powerful, vastly more skilled and experienced opponent? We'd WON when we laid hands on Dandeer again in that fight, only to piss it away by attempting to pretend we had a chance at winning a fistfight. Two, why didn't Kakara use either her Seer abilities (which were preserved for a desperate spot of trouble, exactly like we were in (tho I acknowledge the player base has been bizarrely unwilling to utilize that ability in this conflict.)) Two, where was Perfect Multiform in this? Why did we poor actions over four years into this ability, only to fail to use it in a critical hour? Obviously, trying to use them against Yammar in a straight up fight would probably be suboptimal, but keeping bodies at range and using Ki blasts to bracket Yammar really should have been a thing. Failing that, Perfect Multiform would have made for a beautiful cover for withdrawing from the fight with Dandeer, and confusing the hell out of Yammar, who we've never seen being noted for his sensing abilities.
I think that's everything I had to say. At this point, I think we'll have to keep moving forward, but I'll probably give this thread a break and catch up some months from now.
Porunga is probably not strong enough to negatively affect Dandeer, given that she trained herself to be strong enough to slaughter the magic-less sorcerers.
In fact, given that Shenron wasn't strong enough to affect Vegeta when he had a power level around 18,000 and I'm pretty sure Dandeer is at least as strong as that, and there's no reason to think Porunga is stronger than Shenron, it'll likely fizzle.
It'd probably be a better idea to turn ourselves (or better yet, everyone on Garenhuld) into a sorcerer if we got our hands on the Dragon Balls, assuming they still exist and the Enemy didn't blow up Namek, and then just create an anti-mind-control spell and teach it to everyone.
Wiadi
Uncompromising Radical Leftist
- Location
- Something Clever
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Poptart has said that attempting to IT out would have given Yammar enough of an opening to take us down, since it's not actually instant (we have to complete the fingers-to-forehead gesture, which he could observe & interrupt). Likewise, use of Seer abilities would have just led to us getting knocked out immediately after starting the vision instead of immediately before doing so. Finally, we do not actually have Perfect Multiform, and normal Multiform comes with a power level cut. Power level determines speed, so Yammar would have been able to simply take down all the clones before they could meaningfully affect him (plus their power levels would be too low for blasts to hurt him anyway).
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
God, Perfect Multiform would have trivialised this whole fight.
I'm at work, so I don't have the effortpost I saved up available to me, but I wanted to float an idea I had. Given that the invasion fleet is now significantly closer to Garenhuld than the entire rest of the galaxy, it might be possible to Willpower push to sense it. In which case, we could IT away from here and escape not just as a shade, but with our body intact and not mind-raped. We would then either attempt to IT further into the galaxy, or failing that, steal/negotiate for a ship to travel inwards on.
EllenTenshima
Tengu Mask
This is wrong. This is the quote.
I know i'm cutting out parts of the post directly, but do forgive me for that. I have judged that the resultant consequence should be similar enough since, in effect and through poptart's own words, the actions have the same results.
So no, Yammar wouldn't have had enough of an opening to take Kakara down. What he would have had is enough time to force a 'damned if you do and damned if you do not' response.
From this, i posit that Kakara could have, if she wanted to, completed the technique and let Dandeer die.
Wiadi
Uncompromising Radical Leftist
- Location
- Something Clever
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Counterpoint:
This suggests that Kakara was simply incapable of using IT to get away, independent of the "keeping Dandeer alive" issue. Kakara "literally could" have allowed Dandeer to die, even if it would have been something she would be...let's say strongly disinclined to do.
EllenTenshima
Tengu Mask
Entirely possible.
However, considering the general tone and the fact that poptart wrote that paragraph as if Kakara protecting Dandeer was a given, I believe it is highly probable that the statement was made with the assumption that Kakara would protect Dandeer, as this would make it consistent with the rest of the statements poptart made in that paragraph.
- Location
- Scotland
Like Dandeer seems to think her magic covers anything so we might win by killing her just straight up depending if defend her was the only command she gave Yammer even now. Since you know can't defend a corpse and like that shouldn't he either A break(Bad outcome) or B(Go back to normal because the main command is gone), C weirdness.
Like voting to kill her might be a win but with the caveat of breaking Kakara even now and future us might not of suggested it because of pacifism/protector trait
Like voting to kill her might be a win but with the caveat of breaking Kakara even now and future us might not of suggested it because of pacifism/protector trait
- Location
- Australia
@PoptartProdigy, do we have a non-zero chance of successfully talking down Dandeer if the talk includes showing her what we've seen of Jaron and our meetings with Goku and co.?
No, no it wouldn't.
Kakara would definitely have hesitated before killing Dandeer, which would give Yammar an opening to knock her out.
I mean, in this case we could have tried to force him to look away. Solar Flare sadly wouldn't be usable while holding Dandeer, and giving her up would have meant losing the fight, but we could still have thrown a monkey ball at him to force him to close his eyes.
A problem with this idea is that we'd arrive on the invasion fleet in Saiyan form, meaning we'd need to somehow silence everyone who learns about us and/or potentially have to beat Tamar with no support while in a masque.
Bakkasama
There is always a greater fool
- Location
- Buenos Aires, Argentina
- Pronouns
- He/his
From the sound of it though, Dandeer's mind control on Yammar makes it so he can't perceive what she does as wrong so I don't think Dandeer dying would have stopped it and by his point of view that would have made Kakara the cause of death of his daughter in law when family is one if his levers. Leaving Dandeer to die would (probably) not have been a solution and might have pushed him to go lethal after Kakara has the metal blow of letting soneone die.
All this being hypothetical of course and contingent on us voting for it and Kakara not hesitating.
All this being hypothetical of course and contingent on us voting for it and Kakara not hesitating.
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Wiadi
Uncompromising Radical Leftist
- Location
- Something Clever
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Yeah, about that:
Even if we were free to use Solar Flare, it wouldn't have helped, since using Dandeer as a hostage wouldn't in any way impede his ability to evade it. I can't imagine the monkey ball would have been any better on that front.
EllenTenshima
Tengu Mask
If we voted for it and Kakara hesitated the screams of railroading will be so loud it would be incomparable to whatever poptart is facing now.
And yes, that is a possibility (let us not argue whose fault Dandeer's death would have been. Let me just state that one should not risk what one is not willing to lose and that it goes for both Yammar and Kakara). Considering, however, that Kakara would have used her action to either IT away or feed someone a Senzu Bean, Yammar immediately going lethal is not nearly as risky as it had been in the previous update.
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Bakkasama
There is always a greater fool
- Location
- Buenos Aires, Argentina
- Pronouns
- He/his
I don't think so since in that case it would make sense for there to be a roll regarding willpower for her to do so and people could at least point to that and blame bad luck.
Whether him going lethal would be a problem or not if we ran away would probably depend on how angry he got and if he would take things out in our unconscious father/grandmother which, admitedtly, seems unlikely since he feels the Talt massacre was a mistake. It could still have happened if he considered it an act of war from Goku clan to Vegeta clan but he is coherent enough to see it would have been Kakara's choice rather than the Goku's leadership in general.
nkd1325
KNIGHT OF ORANGE
- Location
- AT HIS MAJESTY'S SIDE
Well now that that's over I once again say we should just stick to the plan. Attempting to kill Dandeer will force a massive will check on us due to the trait and I doubt we'd get another chance once that fails. We just have so many options once we get off world and we're nearly guaranteed to succeed thanks to the 'it already happened' bonus from the vision.
So things we can try do while off world:
-Go train in Otherworld
-Find 17 and 18
-Find Buu
-Find Namek
-Don't remember where but I'm pretty sure there was a lead about other Sayins(Tarble's linage)
-and other things that I can't think off
we just have so many powerful options if we leave and this is our best opportunity to do so.
So things we can try do while off world:
-Go train in Otherworld
-Find 17 and 18
-Find Buu
-Find Namek
-Don't remember where but I'm pretty sure there was a lead about other Sayins(Tarble's linage)
-and other things that I can't think off
we just have so many powerful options if we leave and this is our best opportunity to do so.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
But we can't use or train several crucial areas as a shade, like Multiform or transformations.
Bakkasama
There is always a greater fool
- Location
- Buenos Aires, Argentina
- Pronouns
- He/his
I would suggest finding Namek and the dragonballs as a priority. With Dandeer controlling all super saiyans in the planet she can not only get resources from both clans to prepare her spells but she can get them to super charge them with Ki. I rather we find a counter for those before she can prepare too many and while "Dandelor + Genki Dama" might work, I want to stack the deck as much as we can.
That and our people could use the good news of Namek being found after this is done, for morale reasons.
That and our people could use the good news of Namek being found after this is done, for morale reasons.
You should probably clarify that it is new transformations since we can go GO as a shade. That said, mastering spirit bomb, ki concentration and our sight powers seem more crucial for this, even if you are right that perfect multiform would have helped. Mainly, because ki concentration and spirit bomb can't be felt as higher power levels like SS2 can and it would be bittersweet if defeating Dandeer came at the cost of attracting the Enemy.
nkd1325
KNIGHT OF ORANGE
- Location
- AT HIS MAJESTY'S SIDE
Wait I've got it we find Namek and use one of the wishes to get our body back so we can train perfect multiform. Three wishes per use and we only have ideas for one right now so what else could we wish for?
EllenTenshima
Tengu Mask
Just because you can give it a roll doesn't mean it's not railroading.
If he would be coherent enough to recognise that it was Kakara's choice, he would be more than coherent enough to recognise that it was his attack and his Ki blast that actually killed Dandeer. Kakara wouldn't even need to push Dandeer in the line of fire or anything, since it's a wide area blast after all.
If Kakara's action was to feed someone a senzu bean, it's even worse because obviously Kakara would abandon an enemy to save an ally because why wouldn't she?
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Could we even gather dragonballs without a physical body?
Well, if we could communicate with the Namekians, I suppose we could convince THEM to do that.
I think that this would be reasonable.May I advocate a hail-mary 'give me a write-in to not be knocked out by Yammar' vote? I'm quite sure you tried most of the things we would have proposed, but I'm also pretty sure that we as a thread can outthink one person who had less than a day, no matter how close to human maximum they may be.
Again, my sole problem with how things went down is that the entire process from Kakara grabbing Dandeer, up to the point where Yammar beat her unconscious, was treated as a situation where Kakara didn't have any choices. Yes, Yammar had counter-tactics for a lot of the things we could have tried. But those counter-tactics would have had their own ramifications.
...
For example, it was claimed that Yammar's counter to us using Dandeer as a shield while doing something else (e.g. IT-ing out or heal-beaming Apra) would have been to fire a wide area blast... but firstly, it does not seem obvious to me that he would have automatically succeeded. Even if he had succeeded, that would have had consequences of its own.
If Dandeer had been vaporized in Kakara's hands while we weren't even attacking Yammar, just holding her, what would have happened? It would have been an interestingly different outcome. There's Yammar, he's been mind controlled to obey Dandeer or rather to be unable to think of any reason he shouldn't obey Dandeer... but he just blew Dandeer up. No more orders. There's Kakara, who honors a powerful injunction to protect life, even her worst enemy... But, well, her opponent just killed someone. It's partially her fault, but, well, it's water over the dam now. And with Dandeer dead, well, things might get bad in various ways but it'd at least be differently bad than what happened in Message in a Bottle. And interestingly bad, to boot! The situation would be more political-talky, and less unwinnable-fighty.
...
Alternatively, we could have tried to negotiate, given that Yammar was obviously willing to talk, if not to let us win. It only occurred to me after the fact, but I had already speculated that the mind control was based on "forget any reason you can think of not to like/obey Dandeer." I'm curious what would happen if you tried to Deceit someone into thinking that you're willing to let Dandeer go peaceably as part of a negotiation, because seriously, Yammar can you think of a reason why we wouldn't?
It would at least have been an interesting thing to try.
The fact that we didn't get to vote on any of this is the only part of the whole affair I have a problem with, and going back and voting on it, even if failure or disaster is a likely outcome, would alleviate all my concerns about fairness and QM-promises and whatnot.
A bad end to the scenario might still turn me off about the quest, but that would just be a question of "I like playing game A and not game B," not "I feel actively bad about this."
I hereby label this the Captain Ginyu option.
Pursuant to your screen-name, I have to ask:
What evidence could disprove your theory?
Having an open and above-board scene in which we get to pick a counter-tactic, and in which the rolls that occur as a consequence of the counter-tactic are likewise open and above-board, and in which we win or lose on the merits of the quality of our plan and the rolls that result from it...
Would have been a lot better than what resulted here, IMO. Or at least if things got bad, they'd get bad, for lack of a better term, honestly. In a way it would be easier to live with.
I think this is a temptation you would be well advised to yield to.
The plan never involved this big super-saiyan ballroom blitz. This is entirely the result of Dandeer having pre-prepared by identifying her worst known enemy early on (Yammar) and putting a geas on him, then identifying her most valuable potential ally (Berra) and putting a geas on HIM, then putting a geas on her husband because OF COURSE she mind-controls her husband, I don't even blame her for that one given what an asshole Lord Vegeta was.
These were reasonable precautions for her to take.
What kicked our ass was that:
1) In-character, none of the NPCs seem to have seen this coming, and specifically Dandelor apparently didn't think it was even worth scanning Yammar and Apra for any geases laid by Dandeer. This was a massive fuckup on his part.
2) While the Gokuns have many sorcerors, apparently Berra doesn't undergo regular scanning for mind control spells, curses, or other influence. Or if he does, Dandeer was good enough to bypass them. I mean shit, Exiles, have you ever heard of anti-virus software?
3) We didn't really dig into this issue at all ourselves as quest voters, due to a combination of:
3a) Both Kakara IC and the voters OOC assuming that politically and magically savvy operators like Apra, Yammar, and Dandelor wouldn't miss anything obvious
3b) It never specifically being brought up in a vote on the topic of "so what precautions are you urging, personally, to ensure the conspiracy succeeds?"
3c) Us relying on the seers, where it turns out that Dandeer also somehow subverted the one and only seer who was our link to the overall project, which is the most confusing thing in this whole mess because I don't understand how or why she singled Carrick out like that and subverted him without then learning everything about the conspiracy and nipping it in the bud entirely.
This is a question others have asked.
Pretty much entirely this. We didn't use it because we didn't vote to use it. There was some suspicion/fear among SOME that our Sight had somehow been badly compromised by Carrick Balor (who was subverted).
We did not, in point of fact, pour enough actions into this ability to actually have it. It would have been very effective if we had the ability, which we don't.
This invites a question:
Namely, WAIT. So, Dandeer foresaw Yammar attacking her the day after the Sealing, and trapped him. And she DIDN'T put a compulsion on him to not hurt her? Her mind-control seal doesn't automatically delete from his mind any plan that involves literally killing her?
I'm having a bit of a WTF reaction to this idea, now that I think about it. How is it that Dandeer's spell can casually sanitize from Yammar's mind even the awareness that Dandeer did a bad thing, but doesn't so much as noticeably impair him when he's actively planning to kill her to avoid her being used as a hostage when the entire reason he's fighting in the first place is to protect her? I mean, I get that he's Yammar the Ruthless and all, but does the spell not even factor into this?
@PoptartProdigy , I notice that I am confused by this.
I mean, in this scenario, his daughter-in-law is dead because he blew her up rather than leave her in the hands of a person who is, herself, virtually certain not to kill her.
I get that Yammar is not incapable of hypocrisy, but for him to fly into a destructive rage in which he randomly murders other, entirely different people, who were in no way responsible for an action that was very much his choice, over this would be... WOW.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
I don't think being better at the Spirit Bomb would have helped here. By "transformations", I was thinking along the lines of endurance training GO and maybe trying to crack using both of our Base PLs at once, and we've been told that sort of thing requires being at full strength, i.e. not being stuck at 5% strength as a shade.