It's been 300 years, as it states on the front page. Mafuba:
Mutaito, who was Roshi's teacher, developed it. When it was originally shown, it had lethal consequences for the user. Thunder Shock:
From what I remember, Roshi used it so rarely that it's probably actually almost unheard of. Fusion:
Fusion is more than just the dance. It's the proper power level matching of the two using it, as well as the correct angle. It's complicated.
Not everyone knows mind delve, nor would want that to happen to them. Capsule Tech
The tech itself being widely available does not mean that the means which to make it were.
Time frame:
My bad, just assumed due to the raw scope of time necessary to loose important information like what has been forgotten, that the time frame was longer.
Still, my point applies.
Mafuba:
It was also used by Kami on Piccolo in the OG Dragon ball without lethal consequences.
Thunder shock:
Given the small details formerly remembered, I think this one still would be rediscovered.
Fusion:
Goku also explained those things to Goten and Trunks.
fusion was/is under research. Currently they managed to get the wrong/fat fusion down. Word of God is that we're a few years of research from having our people unlocking it.
During testing some of the results included deaths. For example a couple fused, but somehow the result missed a heart.
Mafuba... for all we know Kami took centuries of study to improve it up to the point he could use it without dying. Roshi was capable of using it safely, but only after he once died using it. That might have given him the push to improve it.
He also became much stronger by the time he used it safely at the ToP. Hard to say how strong, but stronger.
And when Trunks used it in the future... well, he was probably a maxed ssj2.
Basically for the Mafuba it might be a mix of it being a dishonorable technique, or it being seen as "that technique that never actually worked", or seers simply being uninterested in spending the time it would take to learn it. Remember that seers, as a rule, don't train. that means their ki control/sense would be pretty low, which makes trying to learn such a technique even harder.
Also up until the last generations the number of saiyans was limited, and they only removed the population limits by our granma's time. Seers are RARE. There might have been maybe a thousand or so Seers in the whole exile history, and maybe even less than that. Of those many would ignore the visions and never train their gift because of exile prejudice against seers and sorcerers. Of those that became actual seers, most would be untrained in terms of ki.
By the way, do you know what might be the BEST use of the fusion dance actually? training.
Have masters of completely different styles fuse, and then use the 30 minutes to have them teach/train people in their new combined techniques and insights from such different set of skills.
Same by fusing different seers and sorcerers and having them teach/write down all the insights from the fused sets of knowledge.
Master of Gokun and Vegetan style? you get final kamehameha, big bang kamehameha, the sword technique Vegito used... Gotenks somehow created some interesting techniques as well...
You get 30 minutes of teaching time, than 1 hour to recover, than another 30 minutes. Imagine the number of insights we could get from it.
True for the general unknowns on the mafuba, but my point is that there should be some information on it. Even if the information is "everyone who tried it died in the process rip". Even then it'd be a useful hail Mary to pick up, if a out of context regenerator comes by.
That's true if the experience thing is shown. Though fusion would possibly be a hard last card, due to breaking the masquerade full on if 2 super saiyans do it.
2 people with a PL of 15 million doing it should be fine though, since its stated to be a dozens of times multiplier (24-96, meaning the fusion would either be 340 million or 1.44 billion. I'm assuming the gap accounts for how well the 2 people doing it fulfill the requirements of being equal rivals).
Short Omake: Ragged
To be 'Jaron Somerlad' is for everything to feel wrong somehow. Your face, your body, your name. Your parents. Your mother feels... accurate, you guess. Wrong because you don't think mothers should act like that, not because she isn't. Isn't. Isn't. Isn't something. (You hate this.)
Your father feels like an alien.
He tries to make you feel included, but somehow that just makes it worse. You have no idea why. (And you hate this too, for exactly the same reason.)
You are thirteen years old, and nothing makes sense. Nothing except magic, by which you really mean martial arts, and fighting aliens, which your mother hates so much she actually yelled at your father over it. When Karen taught you about ki, it felt getting a limb back - it felt like getting at least two. (Part of you is sure you're still missing one.) And it's been tearing your family apart.
Karen noticed. Why else would she not have asked you for help, when she was fighting that super alien? At least you still have training. She can't take that from you, even if she tries. (You wish she would try, just so you could punch her in her stupid face. That idiot. What was she thinking?)
(At some point, you noticed that whatever makes you whole makes your family break. At some point, you started wondering if it was the other way around. You would never tell this to anyone, not even Jaffur.
Maybe especially not him.
He might agree.)
So, sometimes, you just stare at knives for a while. They're dangerous, you used to think. They scared you. Before you had ki, and remembered you were broken.
There's no way they could cut you now, not unless you deliberately suppressed. Absolutely none. You can - and have - sneezed with more force than it'd take to disintegrate this, let alone what your skin could do to it. But three years ago, it might've killed you. Two and a half. Such a short time, to have been your whole life until now. Such a short time, to be forever.
(This is better than wondering what it'd be like if you just flared your aura a bit. While your whole family was here, or at least your parents. Better than acknowledging that you've had that thought.)
You stare at the knife for a long time.
True for the general unknowns on the mafuba, but my point is that there should be some information on it. Even if the information is "everyone who tried it died in the process rip". Even then it'd be a useful hail Mary to pick up, if a out of context regenerator comes by.
There likely IS some information. Just not enough to actually learn to use it without a LOT of research.
Maybe people are trying. Fusion dance is close to completion, Mafuba might simply be behind.
Even in canon it took goku some time to learn it, and even muten, tien and trunks had to see it in person to get it, with Muten and tien needing training time for it as well.
Seers would be a lot worse than those legendary martial artists, and so they might not be able to learn the mafuba just from looking at it in a vision, and the GOOD martial artists are not capable of looking at it in first person, so they have to make do with what a Seer is capable of sharing.
To be clear i LIKE the Mafuba. It's on my list for a Kakara style, right after thunder shock surprise and perfect multiform.
Kakara might, by the way, be the first seer with actual martial artist training in seer history, and she's certainly the best one at ki control and ki sense. That makes it much more likely AND easier for HER specifically to manage to recreate such techniques from visions and experimentation.
That's true if the experience thing is shown. Though fusion would possibly be a hard last card, due to breaking the masquerade full on if 2 super saiyans do it.
2 people with a PL of 15 million doing it should be fine though, since its stated to be a dozens of times multiplier (24-96, meaning the fusion would either be 340 million or 1.44 billion. I'm assuming the gap accounts for how well the 2 people doing it fulfill the requirements of being equal rivals).
I doubt it would actually multiply their strenght. I think that in the end it will just add it. 30 Mil would after all be enough to easily beat both the component fighters.
I could even imagine there being some loss in raw power, so maybe we'd get LESS than 30 mil. Or maybe the multiplier might appear at an higher skill tier.
Really, it's hard to say exactly how strong a fusion would be. Canon was REALLY inconsistent with power levels after all, and gotenks kind of cheated by going ssj3 without even showing ssj2 for some reason.
@PoptartProdigy, this is an Omake I've had in the works since about halfway through the Unsealing. It's taken a lot of bashing to get it to work, but I think it's finally publishable. 'Enjoy.'
Think we should look into that then. And I can see the general points on the problem with "lol seer" solving everything. My point is that there shouldn't be no information on some highly important techniques. It's simply not realistic given the fact that people would prioritize saving it, and the fact that we have seers.
It was stated by Akira to be that. Though you are right that it's pretty inconsistent, though I do think it would be much higher than both of the users added together. Ss1 Gotenks was stated equal power wise to ss3 Goku. That's a big ass jump from ss1 Goten and Trunks.
I feel the vague "dozens" is the most accurate we'll get, since the technique does vary on who's using it, and the relationship of the 2 using it. (Goku and Vegeta for example would get a higher boost than Hercule and Goku.)
Still catching up on this, hence me quoting something super old. But still.
How do they remember incredibly tiny details, such as Gokus power level before he met Bulma, or how Freizas death ray worked, but forget something as incredibly major as how the gods they worship achieved apotheosis? Or why haven't they had the seers view the past en-mass to see the particulars? The same applies for old techniques, or capsules tech.
This has been the main thing that's been bugging me during the quest. Other then that it's pretty good.
Short Omake: Ragged
To be 'Jaron Somerlad' is for everything to feel wrong somehow. Your face, your body, your name. Your parents. Your mother feels... accurate, you guess. Wrong because you don't think mothers should act like that, not because she isn't. Isn't. Isn't. Isn't something. (You hate this.)
Your father feels like an alien.
He tries to make you feel included, but somehow that just makes it worse. You have no idea why. (You hate this too, for exactly the same reason.)
You are thirteen years old, and nothing makes sense. Nothing except magic, by which you really mean martial arts, and fighting aliens, which your mother hates so much she actually yelled at your father over it. When Karen taught you about ki, it felt getting a limb back - it felt like getting at least two. (Part of you is sure you're still missing one.) And it's been tearing your family apart.
Karen noticed. Why else would she not have asked you for ki, when she was fighting that super alien? At least you still have training. She can't take that from you, even if she tries. (You wish she would try, just so you could punch her in her stupid face. That idiot. What was she thinking?)
(At some point, you noticed that whatever makes you whole makes your family break. At some point, you started wondering if it was the other way around. You would never tell this to anyone, not even Jaffur.
Maybe especially not him.
He might agree.)
So, sometimes, you just stare at knives for a while. They're dangerous, you used to think. They scared you. Before you had ki, and remembered you were broken.
There's no way they could cut you now, not unless you deliberately suppressed. Absolutely none. You can - and have - sneezed with more force than it'd take to disintegrate this, let alone what your skin could do to it. But three years ago, it might've killed you. Two and a half. Such a short time, to have been your whole life till now. Such a short time, to be forever.
(This is better than wondering what it'd be like if you just flared your aura a bit. While your whole family was here, or at least your parents. Better than acknowledging that you've had that thought.)
You stare at the knife for a long time.
...that's amazing. I really like this! Nicely done, Horatio! I would like to canonize this. One thing, though: Jaron heard Kakara's request for the Misfits as a group. He didn't have a personalized request, but he was included in the group's request.
Hum. The reason for that is that knowledge was actively destroyed by a number of factors throughout history. Unless there was something along those lines, I don't think that line of reasoning quite works. This is further exacerbated by the extreme significance attached to the God form, and the shorter 300 year time frame compared to how Damascus was lost.
I'm going to assume that there's a good reason why we can't just "lol seer" the God form, and given that as I've further read, there's scenes where seering can be blocked, I'm guessing that.
It was stated by Akira to be that. Though you are right that it's pretty inconsistent, though I do think it would be much higher than both of the users added together. Ss1 Gotenks was stated equal power wise to ss3 Goku. That's a big ass jump from ss1 Goten and Trunks.
there's also the fact that they trained quite a bit while fused, and as they got to ssj3 that should mean they broke throught their fusion's cap (which would likely work differently from the cap of a base saiyan, but we can't be certain how high it would be exactly).
That means Gotenks actually had the cap of a saiyan (fusion) who broke to ssj3, not one who only managed to reach ssj1.
I'll add a bit of spoilers from the rp about what exactly is the cap for every known form. If you don't want to watch you're warned
Right now we've only reached Full Power Super Saiyan, so that's what Kakara knows about. In order
Base cap: 15 millions
ssj boost: +140 millions. base cap raised to half that, so 70 millions. max total is 140+70=210
FPSSJ: the ssj boost goes from 140 to 750. the base is, as always, half the max of your base form, which means 375. Total is 750+375=1.125 billions
Here are the spoiler parts
ssj2: at first transformation the boost from ssj is doubled, so from 750 to 1.5, to which you add the base. You can then train the ssj2 the same way you do fpssj1, and this training ALSO raises the ssj1 form's ki. Base will, as always, be trainable to half the highest transformation
FPSSJ2: the transformation can reach up to 15 billions. at that point the FPSSJ1 will be 7.5 billions, and the base form will be 7.5 billions as well.
Max transformed power is: 7.5 billions in base, 7.5+7.5= 15 billions while transformed in FPSSJ, 7.5+15=22.5 billions while in FPSSJ2
Super Saiyan 3: the moment you unlock it it gives a 4x boost to ssj2. that means ssj3 gives you up to 15*4=60 billions, with the base trainable up to half that, so 30 billions.
That means you get up to 30 billions in base, 37.5 in FPSSJ1, 45 in FPSSJ2, and 90 in ssj3.
SSJ3 CAN'T be trained to be as effortless as FPSSJ and FPSSJ2. It's also a LOT HARDER to raise it's boost. In the RP Trunks, even with years in the time chamber, only ever managed to reach 100 billions total.
If one wants to go even higher you have to either get ssj4 (unknown how and how strong it would be), go for the god forms (unknown rules, but I vaguely remember a saiyan god from the rp WITHOUT ssj (so his base would have been at 15 millions at most) to be at the very least stronger than the 375 millions of a fpssj in his base form, though a bit weaker than a FPSSJ. I suppose the saiyan form might have allowed him to train more though, so don't take this as a "it allows an X multiplier".
All of this was to say that, in theory, Gotenks might have trained in one of the higher forms, and that power trickled down to his FPSSJ1 form. That and he could also have trained his base
By the way ssj3 Goku was probably at something like 16 billions at most, as he was still VERY far from his ssj2 cap and it has been slightly implied that Mystic Gohan is basically at FPSSJ2 cap, except he doesn't need to transform (so he'd be at 22.5 billions max, and that's stronger than ssj3 Goku at the time)
Hum. The reason for that is that knowledge was actively destroyed by a number of factors throughout history. Unless there was something along those lines, I don't think that line of reasoning quite works. This is further exacerbated by the extreme significance attached to the God form, and the shorter 300 year time frame compared to how Damascus was lost.
I'm going to assume that there's a good reason why we can't just "lol seer" the God form, and given that as I've further read, there's scenes where seering can be blocked, I'm guessing that.
it's completely possible that the seers had a vision of how trying to look at the god form would result in disaster (such as the Enemy arriving because an overeager scion tried for it and blew the wards and got sensed)
Or maybe the lords actually ordered them to NOT look for it for now, and don't trust themselves with that knowledge as well.
In the end the point is mostly moot. We probably CAN get that knowledge if we want to through our visions (not gohan, there is A LOT of paperworks for a god if he helps mortals to become gods now), but we can't use it because we don't know if the Enemy would sense it.
I can think of only two cases in which we could try the ritual
1) we're in a time chamber. That SHOULD be capable of hiding the god ki. We would never be able to use the form outside of it for fear of being sensed though
2) We've gotten as high as possible with all other forms, we've developed our skills, psychich powers and magics as much as we could and we're ready to start the endgame and try to madly rush to the highest pl possible before the enemy attacks.
actually, case 3) we went to heaven and decided to train/use the ritual there, where the enemy can't reach us.
Saiyans in canon have explicit infinite potential. To just keep on pumping iron in base form, never becoming a super saiyan, and getting a PL past 15 million is very possible for any saiyan.
Though I do agree with the implementation of caps, otherwise back when we used to have yearly actions we would see :
[X]Training ×10
[X]Oh yeah socializing I guess...
Which would be boring to read.
Even if the seers saw that, they should still document the info for a rainy day. In case a out of context problem arrives and we need it.
A joke about abilities that I'm convinced were Lost for narrative purposes instead of actual plot. Like it makes little sense for me since the techniques used by the Z fighter are all mostly available and improved on yet some of the most broken techniques were lost to history. Evil containment wave I can understand, the move was created by someone I'm pretty sure died early and was never heard from again, the Fusion dance has the same prob, someone they had little connection with that died, but the spirit bomb and god ritual? Nah. Ether the author decided these were to game breaking and removed them or the gods decided that seers shouldn't be snooping on godly affairs and stopped them. We know gods can do some straight up Bs without an explanation, and since gods are big on order and balance I'm just gonna assume there was paper work involved as such copy righted.
Saiyans in canon have explicit infinite potential. To just keep on pumping iron in base form, never becoming a super saiyan, and getting a PL past 15 million is very possible for any saiyan.
Though I do agree with the implementation of caps, otherwise back when we used to have yearly actions we would see :
[X]Training ×10
[X]Oh yeah socializing I guess...
Which would be boring to read.
Even if the seers saw that, they should still document the info for a rainy day. In case a out of context problem arrives and we need it.
caps here are a way to make dragonball events fit. For all the good the series has, Toriyama has always been horrible in establishing the relative strenght of his characters beyond "X is stronger than Y
well, we're talking about the quest more than canon, and canon here is basically a possible interpretation of how the anime actually worked.
It has actually never been shown in canon that is possible for a saiyan to become strong enough without transforming. We actually have a few things proving the opposite.
1)Vegeta nearly killed himself pre-android saga to try to reach Goku's level, and yet he clearly felt like he wasn't making enough progress
2) Goku and gohan left the hyperbolic time chamber because "they wouldn't get anything more out of training there". Which seems nonsense if caps are not a thing, as they had MORE than an extra year available to them to train, and with Cell out there an extra year (and a bit more. they went out BEFORE the first year run out) would have certainly been useful.
I actually HOPE there was some kind of cap limitation there, or otherwise Goku was being UNFORGIVABLY stupid and reckless.
I'm sure there were more hints I could find, but I don't remember them right now and they're in the end irrelevant to how things work in the quest.
Truly, the ONLY saiyan we see explicitely becoming abnormally strong without first transforming is Broly, and he CLEARLY doesn't count.
Maaaaaaaybe a few of the universe 6 saiyans, but that might just have been Vegeta going easy on Cabba
A joke about abilities that I'm convinced were Lost for narrative purposes instead of actual plot. Like it makes little sense for me since the techniques used by the Z fighter are all mostly available and improved on yet some of the most broken techniques were lost to history. Evil containment wave I can understand, the move was created by someone I'm pretty sure died early and was never heard from again, the Fusion dance has the same prob, someone they had little connection with that died, but the spirit bomb and god ritual? Nah. Ether the author decided these were to game breaking and removed them or the gods decided that seers shouldn't be snooping on godly affairs and stopped them. We know gods can do some straight up Bs without an explanation, and since gods ate big on order and balance I'm just gonna assume there was paper work involved as such copy righted.
the god ritual would be pretty easy to forget actually. It's as easy as people forgetting to write it down, and after a few centuries suddenly there's nobody that knows it anymore.
It's not like people were able to prepare before the enemy attacked.
It's also COMPLETELY POSSIBLE that gods might be stopping seers from seeing the ritual itself.
The Genkidama has a really good explanation for being forgotten in-quest: simply put, it can't really be taught conventionally, and Goku never managed to teach it to anyone at all. He tried with Gohan, and he basically crit-failed.
Most of the other techniques are still remembered, and there ARE good explanations for the big two you mentioned (god ritual and genkidama)
One thing, though: Jaron heard Kakara's request for the Misfits as a group. He didn't have a personalized request, but he was included in the group's request.
The Misfits were awed at the scale of the described conflict and the technique you used (Jaron tried, unsuccessfully, not to be mad that you left him out of it);
Which one can read, with your new confirmation, as "Jaron was mad that he didn't get to fight", but more naturally reads as "Jaron was mad that he didn't get to be part of the Genki Dama, and didn't know that it was because of Jaffur."
So I can delete the sentence that references it, but it might be good to rephrase the quoted section.
(EDIT: Edited. And then on later thought reverted, with 'ki' changed to 'help'. No conflict now.)
Fully caught up on the thread. Neat to know that the enemy is strong enough that Beerus needs to train to beat him. And that he's definitely immortal.
...And given that this is dragon ball, he definitely has a second form.
Hm.
Only solid way to beat the enemy 1v1 is to hit absurdly outside of Beerus's ballpark of power, while picking up some measure of erasure and ultra instinct.
I'm thinking: Mastered Super Saiyan 4 + Mastered God + Mastered Ultra instinct + Hakai. Throw a fully trained one of those (Could be a revived Goku/Vegeta, the main character, Jaffur, or the MCs dad for all I care) and the enemy is definitely fucked.
Fully caught up on the thread. Neat to know that the enemy is strong enough that Beerus needs to train to beat him. And that he's definitely immortal.
...And given that this is dragon ball, he definitely has a second form.
Hm.
Only solid way to beat the enemy 1v1 is to hit absurdly outside of Beerus's ballpark of power, while picking up some measure of erasure and ultra instinct.
I'm thinking: Mastered Super Saiyan 4 + Mastered God + Mastered Ultra instinct + Hakai. Throw a fully trained one of those (Could be a revived Goku/Vegeta, the main character, Jaffur, or the MCs dad for all I care) and the enemy is definitely fucked.
Honestly, given that he has absolute attacks and defenses in the form of those Awful Walls - and the speed required to keep up with SSB, despite not having senseable ki - I wouldn't count on that.
(That said, a Kakara-Jaffur fusion that is itself fused with a Goku-Vegeta fusion would certainly stand a chance.)
Fully caught up on the thread. Neat to know that the enemy is strong enough that Beerus needs to train to beat him. And that he's definitely immortal.
...And given that this is dragon ball, he definitely has a second form.
Hm.
Only solid way to beat the enemy 1v1 is to hit absurdly outside of Beerus's ballpark of power, while picking up some measure of erasure and ultra instinct.
I'm thinking: Mastered Super Saiyan 4 + Mastered God + Mastered Ultra instinct + Hakai. Throw a fully trained one of those (Could be a revived Goku/Vegeta, the main character, Jaffur, or the MCs dad for all I care) and the enemy is definitely fucked.
I don't think we can get Hyper instinct without dying because we can't acquire it without a ridiculous training regime which we need not to die after using it and jumping into a black hole or something equally threatening awaken our survival instinct. The role would probably be stupidly high too. Everything else is perfect especially the Hakai, as a Kai specialist we should focus on that, God of destruction Karan plan is a go.
Honestly if we don't have a series of near death experiences , then I doubt that this is a dragon ball quest. Goku legit put himself near death 7× over just for gains in the gravity chamber. Its common to put yourself near death for more power in this universe.
I'm thinking: Mastered Super Saiyan 4 + Mastered God + Mastered Ultra instinct + Hakai. Throw a fully trained one of those (Could be a revived Goku/Vegeta, the main character, Jaffur, or the MCs dad for all I care) and the enemy is definitely fucked.
1) we still don't know exactly HOW ssj4 works and/or is achieved and trained. It might be a side-transformation (sort of an improved base) or it might be an ACTUAL progression of the ssj3 line. It's one of the thing we want to experiment with at some point, basically trying to use the power of the oozaru form while in base in some way and see what happens
2)well, at some point we'll obviously want to get the god forms. We have no idea how much they'll actually boost us, if they come with new caps, completely remove them, or... well, we basically don't know much abot god ki in general, except that it can't be normally sensed by mortals and that getting it would make us a LOT stronger (And probably attract the enemy unless it happened somewhere safe, like an hyperbolic time chamber or heaven)
3)Ultra Instinct would be nice, but we'd probably need to be trained in it by either Goku in the Otherworld, or Whis. It's certainly not something we'll get to do soon. Still, we can hope. There's also a chance we simply are not suited to it, kinda like Vegeta wasn't and decided to go his own route. I think UI might be a better fit for Jaffur really, but we'll see.
4) Hakai is a firm no. short explanation is that it's a power exclusive to the god of destructions in the quest's universe. long explanation is an rp spoiler.
I'll add a short explanation about gods too.
TRUE gods (not mortals with god ki) usually are intrinsically connected with a special concept. This is called "Authority". Beerus has "Authority" over "destruction", and only HE can use the power of destruction. Shin is the God of Creation.
Destruction, Creation (and, technically, Time, but that's a bit different and doesn't really matter outside of the rp) are specific mantles that can be passed down to other people, either mortals (they become the new god) or other gods (they lose their own authority and get this one). There is ALWAYS only one of each per universe, and ONLY one.
When a Mortal with god ki (like Goku and Vegeta) die, they ascend to TRUE godhood (and their blue form actually becomes pink, like Zamasu's).
They then get an authority. Goku is the god of martial arts (or fighting, not sure which), Vegeta is the god of kings, Gohan is the god of heroes (dazarel also confirmed it) and Piccolo is the god of nurturing. They get special powers from this when they act within the boundaries of their authority.)
still, all of this was to say that Hakai is not something that can be learnt.
Also raw power probably won't be enough against the enemy. At the very least we know Beerus needs to train, which implies he's not strong enough. We also know that a freshly transformed super saiyan god/blue is DEFINITELY not enough, as Gohan lost. There MIGHT be an high enough pl that would be enough, but the "easiest" (though certainly not "easy") way would be to use powers counter to the enemy's ones.
rp spoiler about the enemy's true nature
While we don't know it's identity (it doesn't really matter, as his powers basically overwrite his personality), we know (from the RP) WHAT he is.
He's a void mage. Technically the FIRST void mage in the multiverse (including alternate timelines), which makes him even more dangerous (apparently the first mage to use a concept is somehow stronger than following ones). he uses magic centered on making things not exist. if he hurts you, the part he destroyed never existed in the first place, and as such you'll never heal. If he kills you the right way he'll actually annihilate your soul, so no heaven for you. As his nature is that of not-existance, he can't be killed as he's not actually "alive", and he can't be "destroyed" by Beerus because he, metaphysically speaking, doesn't exist.
What's the counter to void magic you ask? Why, but existence magic of course! There might be other ways, and a high enough power levels covers a multitude of sins (though remember, BEERUS is not strong enough), but that would be the easiest way... IF we ever learn of it in game, and IF we manage to have Jaffur learn it (or more likely invent it), and IF we're strong enough to use it effectively, AND if he doesn't have more tricks we don't know about...
we don't know that. gotenks lasted so little mostly because ssj3 is simply THAT draining. Possibly also because they were kids. Goku showed multiple times just how tiring ssj3 is.
It's likely that a fusion with a more stable form (like ssj4/ssj god) would last the normal 30 minutes.
Actually, did gogeta blue in the broly movie last less than the expected 30 minutes? I can't remember.
Ssj4 is explicitly said to be able to be gained once you reach a high enough power level, and gain control over a golden ozaru. The MC has already achieved the latter.
In a general sense, a fully mastered God Form combined with the super saiyan 1 transformation allows one to equal Beerus. Getting bogged down in what caps are and the whatnot is irrelevant, I am using Beerus as a point of reference.
Ultra instinct is gained through fully submerging yourself within your instinct. I suspect the MC will easily be able to access this (at least compared to other options), given her instinctive grasp of ki, and self reflecting nature.
Learning hakai is possible. Linking it to the domain explanation, while they do gain domains over aspects of existence, mortals can still do things that fall under those domains. We just need to mimic its most fundamental expression.
As for raw power, a mastered God Form + super saiyan 4 would be able to defeat Beerus in a single hit. Throwing in ultra instinct, which is such a boost that it lets base Goku equal Beerus when mastered, makes Beerus a rounding error.
Them being legit nonexistent is new, though given the sheer amount of ki we would be throwing around, I'm sure we would smooth it over.
Existence doesn't hard counter non existence, they're a binary and equals. To hard counter you need to transcend. Or just reduce him to ayin.
Thatd be neat, though I can't think of anything that can do that in DB.
Edit:
The potara fusion only lasted 5 minutes due to the sheer power of Goku and Vegeta. While no time is stated, the inferior fusion dance would last a even shorter time.
A double fusion would only exacerbate the time issue.
True, I still say we avoid it when possible though, we're not that desperate, Ssj4 god plus Beerus, wished back Goku(if possible), and the whole saiyan race should be enough to take The Enemy down. It's literally a condensed Golden Oozaru plus God Ki, honestly doubt anything can top that if we stack it with fusion.
1) we still don't know exactly HOW ssj4 works and/or is achieved and trained. It might be a side-transformation (sort of an improved base) or it might be an ACTUAL progression of the ssj3 line. It's one of the thing we want to experiment with at some point, basically trying to use the power of the oozaru form while in base in some way and see what happens
2)well, at some point we'll obviously want to get the god forms. We have no idea how much they'll actually boost us, if they come with new caps, completely remove them, or... well, we basically don't know much abot god ki in general, except that it can't be normally sensed by mortals and that getting it would make us a LOT stronger (And probably attract the enemy unless it happened somewhere safe, like an hyperbolic time chamber or heaven)
3)Ultra Instinct would be nice, but we'd probably need to be trained in it by either Goku in the Otherworld, or Whis. It's certainly not something we'll get to do soon. Still, we can hope. There's also a chance we simply are not suited to it, kinda like Vegeta wasn't and decided to go his own route. I think UI might be a better fit for Jaffur really, but we'll see.
4) Hakai is a firm no. short explanation is that it's a power exclusive to the god of destructions in the quest's universe. long explanation is an rp spoiler.
I'll add a short explanation about gods too.
TRUE gods (not mortals with god ki) usually are intrinsically connected with a special concept. This is called "Authority". Beerus has "Authority" over "destruction", and only HE can use the power of destruction. Shin is the God of Creation.
Destruction, Creation (and, technically, Time, but that's a bit different and doesn't really matter outside of the rp) are specific mantles that can be passed down to other people, either mortals (they become the new god) or other gods (they lose their own authority and get this one). There is ALWAYS only one of each per universe, and ONLY one.
When a Mortal with god ki (like Goku and Vegeta) die, they ascend to TRUE godhood (and their blue form actually becomes pink, like Zamasu's).
They then get an authority. Goku is the god of martial arts (or fighting, not sure which), Vegeta is the god of kings, Gohan is the god of heroes (dazarel also confirmed it) and Piccolo is the god of nurturing. They get special powers from this when they act within the boundaries of their authority.)
still, all of this was to say that Hakai is not something that can be learnt.
Also raw power probably won't be enough against the enemy. At the very least we know Beerus needs to train, which implies he's not strong enough. We also know that a freshly transformed super saiyan god/blue is DEFINITELY not enough, as Gohan lost. There MIGHT be an high enough pl that would be enough, but the "easiest" (though certainly not "easy") way would be to use powers counter to the enemy's ones.
rp spoiler about the enemy's true nature
While we don't know it's identity (it doesn't really matter, as his powers basically overwrite his personality), we know (from the RP) WHAT he is.
He's a void mage. Technically the FIRST void mage in the multiverse (including alternate timelines), which makes him even more dangerous (apparently the first mage to use a concept is somehow stronger than following ones). he uses magic centered on making things not exist. if he hurts you, the part he destroyed never existed in the first place, and as such you'll never heal. If he kills you the right way he'll actually annihilate your soul, so no heaven for you. As his nature is that of not-existance, he can't be killed as he's not actually "alive", and he can't be "destroyed" by Beerus because he, metaphysically speaking, doesn't exist.
What's the counter to void magic you ask? Why, but existence magic of course! There might be other ways, and a high enough power levels covers a multitude of sins (though remember, BEERUS is not strong enough), but that would be the easiest way... IF we ever learn of it in game, and IF we manage to have Jaffur learn it (or more likely invent it), and IF we're strong enough to use it effectively, AND if he doesn't have more tricks we don't know about...
Goku/Vegeta likely won't be part of that fight. This is Kakara's and jaffur's story after all.
Still a fusion between the two, with both seer and sorcerer's power PLUS spirit saiyan... well, that has potential.
we don't know that. gotenks lasted so little mostly because ssj3 is simply THAT draining. Possibly also because they were kids. Goku showed multiple times just how tiring ssj3 is.
It's likely that a fusion with a more stable form (like ssj4/ssj god) would last the normal 30 minutes.
Actually, did gogeta blue in the broly movie last less than the expected 30 minutes? I can't remember.
1) I'm going to assume it functions the same way as GT since most of the other forms function the same way. For those of you that haven't watched GT it's basically a different branch of transformation, it's only called Ssj4 because it's the forth form Goku's managed to manifest even though it has nothing to do with the other transformations. It's described as a condensed more powerful version of Golden Oozaru and its side affects include making Saiyans more aggressive(Extremely aggressive in some cases), while also giving them a massive boost to all parameters with little to no drain.
2) wouldn't Kachin work as a possible substitute though? I'm just suggesting it since it has such high praise.
3) Maybe we could schedule a trip to hell after attaining Ssj4 doubt there's anything as power as Shin Shenran or Omega Shenran there.
4) Well that sucks aw wells, Ssj4 God plans still good enough.
Fusion Dance was Retconned, now it has no drain. What that means is if Vegito last 5 minutes with strain Fusion Dance has no Strain. That means they can last the whole 30 minutes while Vegito can last 15 minutes from the strain, the pay off is the chance of fucking up and becoming weak shit meaning it's a high risk high reward type of gamble. So like, Vegito no roll or training needed but 15 minutes time limit while Gogeta needs training and rolls but 30 minutes time limit.
Ssj4 is explicitly said to be able to be gained once you reach a high enough power level, and gain control over a golden ozaru. The MC has already achieved the latter.
In a general sense, a fully mastered God Form combined with the super saiyan 1 transformation allows one to equal Beerus. Getting bogged down in what caps are and the whatnot is irrelevant, I am using Beerus as a point of reference.
Ultra instinct is gained through fully submerging yourself within your instinct. I suspect the MC will easily be able to access this (at least compared to other options), given her instinctive grasp of ki, and self reflecting nature.
Learning hakai is possible. Linking it to the domain explanation, while they do gain domains over aspects of existence, mortals can still do things that fall under those domains. We just need to mimic its most fundamental expression.
As for raw power, a mastered God Form + super saiyan 4 would be able to defeat Beerus in a single hit. Throwing in ultra instinct, which is such a boost that it lets base Goku equal Beerus when mastered, makes Beerus a rounding error.
Them being legit nonexistent is new, though given the sheer amount of ki we would be throwing around, I'm sure we would smooth it over.
Existence doesn't hard counter non existence, they're a binary and equals. To hard counter you need to transcend. Or just reduce him to ayin.
Thatd be neat, though I can't think of anything that can do that in DB.
Edit:
The potara fusion only lasted 5 minutes due to the sheer power of Goku and Vegeta. While no time is stated, the inferior fusion dance would last a even shorter time.
A double fusion would only exacerbate the time issue.
The story doesn't follow canon exactly, certain elements like the God thing were changed so like I doubt we could learn it if it's really an Authority thing. Good bye HISSJ4G Kakara.
Don't underestimate Beerus we've never seen him fight all out with the intent to kill, he can still one shot us regardless of strength.
