Dragon Ball: After the End

[Chuck12]

First off, that's not an RP spoiler. Secondly, I'm pretty sure Oob decided to fuse with Buu in this story, at around the same time Buu left earth. Now, maybe someone eventually killed him/some of his components, but I'd actually look at other dead bad guys first.
Maybe Cell?

On another note, I finally have a compelling theory as to who the New Friends are. Namely, the Kanassans. Who else would have a major conceptual link to us, when we've never met them or been friends before?

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Gonna be honest I don't know what would count as a RP spoiler and what wouldn't. I checked the prologue and history page, it turns out Uub was shredded to pieces, used the dragon ball to rev Maron to get some info then died fighting with Maron who died right after and then Buu disappeared. If Uub and Buu did fused that wouldn't really stop them from reincarnating again, there's no reason for them not to since unlike Goku, Gohan, and Vegeta he never went God meaning he was never removed from the cycle of reincarnation.

Edit: Reads how reincarnation works, Ohhh well that theories a bust. I'm gonna die crying from laughter if it turns out Maya is the reincarnation of Cell.

 

[Pittauro]

Gonna be honest I don't know what would count as a RP spoiler and what wouldn't. I checked the prologue and history page, it turns out Uub was shredded to pieces, used the dragon ball to rev Maron to get some info then died fighting with Maron who died right after and then Buu disappeared. If Uub and Buu did fused that wouldn't really stop them from reincarnating again, there's no reason for them not to since unlike Goku, Gohan, and Vegeta he never went God meaning he was never removed from the cycle of reincarnation.

Edit: Reads how reincarnation works, Ohhh well that theories a bust. I'm gonna die crying from laughter if it turns out Maya is the reincarnation of Cell.

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generally speaking rp spoilers are about a few things mentioned in the rp but not here.

Those are mostly about transformations and skills/techniques showed there but not here (yet), a few bits about the Enemy from his ONE appearance there, and more generally anything related to what the time patrol from xenoverse is doing right now (in the rp the characters are time patrollers). If you're not actually using information from the rp or the rp spoilers we sometime write you're good.


The bit about how reincarnation work actually comes from a sidestory threadmark written by poptart (linked below)

you might have missed it if you only joined after it was written and just went through the main threadmark. I suggest you give a look to the sidestory threadmarks as well, there are some relatively important/interesting part. you too @r s


The MOST important side threadmarks are the following three:

Dragon Ball: After the End Sci-Fi and immediately following ones (9 parts): those are a mechanic showcase, showing how the mechanics work in an hypothetical ssj goku vs frieza fight we get to play.

Dragon Ball: After the End Sci-Fi and immediately following ones (3 parts): The last fight of Goku and Vegeta.

Both of these two chains of threadmarks were written by Poptart.


Dragon Ball: After the End Sci-Fi and immediately following ones (5 parts). Not written by Poptart, but it's JUST that good. It gives some more character to Jaffur, and shows how he came up with some of his techniques and style (plus a pretty cool fight)

 

[HoratioVonBecker]

Didn't Bardack and friends kill them all?

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Well, they were a spacefaring race who had access to the Sight. It seems unlikely, in retrospect, that they would've all died out.
Also, we have confirmation that Old Family is Lapis and Lazuli, thanks to a pretty-much-wasted Sight action. So you can confirm that.

I have committed to limiting cross-pollination from the RP to the Quest, given the pacing problems it would entail and the distaste much of my player base has for the idea. Therefore, while you are perfectly at liberty to follow and read the RP, I ask that if you wish to discuss spoilers from it that you've received, please do so in clearly-labelled spoiler boxes, for the benefit of those who prefer to refrain.

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Can I convince you to clarify this to its' current standard? "Cross-pollination will be limited" is quite a bit different from "certain in-Quest events will never get in-Quest explanations, and discussing this in any detail may get your post spoilered".
It'd make it a lot easier to remember, I think.

 

[r s]

Question:
How does kaioken work? I'm assuming it's not multiplication based like canon.

Cuz Goku with a PL of 3 mill could withstand kaioken ×20 for short bursts. Slapping that on Kakara you get 7.5 billion.

 

[Pittauro]

Well, they were a spacefaring race who had access to the Sight. It seems unlikely, in retrospect, that they would've all died out.

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Do we actually KNOW that they were spacefaring? I thought Frieza mostly had not-spacefaring species killed. The spacefaring ones would more likely be his clients usually.

Question:
How does kaioken work? I'm assuming it's not multiplication based like canon.

Cuz Goku with a PL of 3 mill could withstand kaioken ×20 for short bursts. Slapping that on Kakara you get 7.5 billion.

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It is multiplication based, but the stronger you are the harder to use higher multipliers it is.

And The super saiyan form makes things even worse. Berra is BARELY capable of using a x2 while full power super saiyan, and he has especially trained for that. He also has an elite talent for it.

So, to give you an idea, FPSSJ Berra with Kaioken at elite and elite talent forSUper Kaioken (which we'll probably ask him to teach to jaffur at some point) can BARELY use a kaioken x2, at great effort and leaving him exhausted in seconds to a minute at most.

Maya could probably get more out of it, as she's a human without transformations. Same for the Namekians.

Also unmastered ssj (either 1 or 2) is pretty much not compatible. The one using it would basically kill himself in a second or two (though It MIGHT work as a suicide technique maybe).


Basically Kaioken is an overclock of your body and ki, and it's VERY risky. The stronger you hard, the harder to multiply your strenght becomes.

SSJ blue is kind of an exception, as it requires perfect ki control to be used, and Goku had quite a few problems with it anyway (ki sickness, his "10% of working" statement...


EDIT: Ah, it has also been stated that Oozaru is better suited to it than the base form, though we have no numbers about it.

Also using it is risky because higher pl means we can be sensed from further away, and Exile wards are not good enough to cover a FPSSJ using kaioken. Berra trained at half strength, and he KNOWS he's probably not as good as he hopes to be because of it.

 

[r s]

That stronger you are bit sounds false, given that Goku in the namek saga could push ×20 no problem, but during the vegeta saga he nearly died doing ×4.

Him struggling doing it with super saiyan is cuz super saiyan places a strain on the body. Adding kaioken to that increases the struggle.

Ye looking over it, unless that 20× thing gets docked, once you reach the new base cap that super saiyan gives you, super saiyan it's self ironically becomes useless since it gets outclassed by kaioken×4 and up.

And I wasn't talking kaioken+ssj. I was talking kaioken in base.

 

[HoratioVonBecker]

Do we actually KNOW that they were spacefaring? I thought Frieza mostly had not-spacefaring species killed. The spacefaring ones would more likely be his clients usually.

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Dazarel met them, so probably. The wiki article implied more that there was a specific group that Bardock's squad killed. Also, there was a turtle-like (in the same way Kanassans are) alien seen in Frieza's army, so that's another way they could've survived - getting drafted like Vegeta.

 

[Pittauro]

That stronger you are bit sounds false, given that Goku in the namek saga could push ×20 no problem, but during the vegeta saga he nearly died doing ×4.

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well, there's also an element of skill. He had the whole trip to namek (and the experience from the Vegeta fight) to get better at it after all.

If you think about it he had just a few months of training with king kai where he

1)chased Bubbles the monkey

2)chased Gregory the cricket

3)Trained under king kai to both raise his pl, and also learned the kaioken and the genkidama.

He didn't actually have that much time to learn how to use it. After that he got some practice with it against Vegeta (and also pushed it to his current limits, which probably helped in getting better), then had some time to train it in the gravity room while going to namek.

Also he only used the time 10 and time 20 for very short spans of time, arguably even less than the 3x he used against Vegeta.


Also I wouldn't say he did it "with no problem". He only ever used a x10 for seconds at a time, as King kai revealed and the anime showed, and his x20 lasted exactly the time of a hit + a kamehameha, after which he was basically spent.

And after he unlocked ssj he never used it until that filler otherworld tournament (when he was dead and couldn't really die again anyway) and he only considered it again once he got Blue.

And I wasn't talking kaioken+ssj. I was talking kaioken in base.

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after you unlock ssj it's USUALLY easier to use that. less strain on the body.

In particular a FPSSJ is basically effortless to mantain, while a kaioken is ALWAYS hard to do.

In theory it's possible to get an higher peak strenght by using kaioken while in base, but a FPSSJ is basically 3x as strong as base, so that means you actually need a 4x multiplier to get an advantage, and that's hard to mantain. You can get even MORE if you just need it for a quick attack, but that's basically a last resort, as it's simply that much harder to use and mantain. Also if, for example, you need the extra power of a beam contest, ULTRA SSJ (trunks' buffed transformation) is at that point probably better, and it would bring you to a PL equivalent to x5 multiplier on base. It also makes you slower, but if you're already engaged in a beam contest it's less punishing for the body than an equivalently good kaioken.

Also, If I remember correctly, Poptart once stated that it's not possible to use a multiplier above 4x for any considerable amount of time. As in "you can use for a few seconds to get in a BIG attack, but you can't use it for the whole fight".

Dazarel met them, so probably. The wiki article implied more that there was a specific group that Bardock's squad killed. Also, there was a turtle-like (in the same way Kanassans are) alien seen in Frieza's army, so that's another way they could've survived - getting drafted like Vegeta.

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that makes sense. Also I'm not sure but Bardock might actually have left that planet cause of his visions BEFORE they completed the job (though that might have been an abridged only thing)

 

[r s]

The higher than 4× is actually wrong, since Goku could hold ×10 indefinitely for a boost. But I can see why they would dock it tho, since it would make kaioken>super saiyan.

And naw Goku didn't train kaioken in particular at all. He just trained his body, to the point he could hold kaioken ×3 with no strain by ginyu, then ×10 by Freiza, and ×20 for short bursts.

And yeah ssj has no strain, but someone popping off kaioken ×10 would be so much so absurdly stronger (3.75 vs 1.125) that it would render ssj irrelevant

This inconsistency is mainly due to the reworking of caps and super saiyan, but this point is largely moot since poptart already reworked it.

There is still the minor issue of why wouldn't kakara just open with kaioken ×20 in base and enter the categories of oneshotting a ss1 tho. But that can be easily docked by just making ×20 impossible.

 

[Pittauro]

And naw Goku didn't train kaioken in particular at all. He just trained his body, to the point he could hold kaioken ×3 with no strain by ginyu, then ×10 by Freiza, and ×20 for short bursts.

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It's not like we looked at him training full time. It might just be that he trained it off-screen.

Or another possible explanation would be that IN THE BEGINNING it becomes easier with more power, but after a certain point it actually starts to get harder.

EVEN if he didn't train it at all there's still the experience he got against Vegeta. After all that would like have been the first time he used a kaioken beyond a 2x.

There is still the minor issue of why wouldn't kakara just open with kaioken ×20 in base and enter the categories of oneshotting a ss1 tho. But that can be easily docked by just making ×20 impossible.

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Also because, EVEN if a x20 was possible in this system at these level of power, it would definitely harm her. A lot.

In the end I won't make (too many) excuses for canon, but here the reason kaioken isn't as common as it should otherwise be in this quest if it was that usefull is a mix of

1)harder to use at higher pl

2) mostly incompatible with SSJ unless the form has been perfectly mastered, and even then it's that much harder and more harmfull.

3)multipliers beyond a 4x are not stable enough for a prolonged fight, and are mostly useful for finishers and last resorts.

Berra can use it at max 2x while fpssj. Jaffur knows it and would probably be interested in learning from Berra how to use it more safely if we ever get a chance.

Oozaru is better than base at using higher multipliers, and Golden Oozaru would PROBABLY be better than a FPSSJ.

Still the problem of wards remains. Current exile ward can cover up to I think somewhere between 1.3 and 1.4 billions, which is actually less than the full power of a golden oozaru, so it's not actually possible to really train to use kaioken to reach an higher PL than that.

 

[ilbgar123]

It's not like we looked at him training full time. It might just be that he trained it off-screen.

Or another possible explanation would be that IN THE BEGINNING it becomes easier with more power, but after a certain point it actually starts to get harder.

EVEN if he didn't train it at all there's still the experience he got against Vegeta. After all that would like have been the first time he used a kaioken beyond a 2x.

Also because, EVEN if a x20 was possible in this system at these level of power, it would definitely harm her. A lot.

In the end I won't make (too many) excuses for canon, but here the reason kaioken isn't as common as it should otherwise be in this quest if it was that usefull is a mix of

1)harder to use at higher pl

2) mostly incompatible with SSJ unless the form has been perfectly mastered, and even then it's that much harder and more harmfull.

3)multipliers beyond a 4x are not stable enough for a prolonged fight, and are mostly useful for finishers and last resorts.

Berra can use it at max 2x while fpssj. Jaffur knows it and would probably be interested in learning from Berra how to use it more safely if we ever get a chance.

Oozaru is better than base at using higher multipliers, and Golden Oozaru would PROBABLY be better than a FPSSJ.

Still the problem of wards remains. Current exile ward can cover up to I think somewhere between 1.3 and 1.4 billions, which is actually less than the full power of a golden oozaru, so it's not actually possible to really train to use kaioken to reach an higher PL than that.

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This vague idea of a regenerator like Buu abusing their regeneration to make Kaioken work better than it does in canon has occurred to me before. Say, can we wish to have Buu-tier regeneration? I mean, if you can wish for immortality, endlessly regenerating from things besides conceptual effects or complete atomization shouldn't be impossible right? And if we don't have to worry about getting killed, we could train Kaioken so that we could use it at 2X without killing ourselves. It should also make the various SSJ states less of a problem because the damage is being auto-repaired. Still need to train in them to avoid being wasteful or having to worry about higher states messing with our minds. Might even make us technically immortal, depending on how far it goes. Of course, anyone with a high enough PL can get around it(as demonstrated when Goku killed Buu via Spirit Bomb) and pain is still going to be a thing(again, seen with Buu) and so our tail getting blasted off will still be a problem, but I'm sure it would be highly beneficial, and getting past it that way takes SSJ3-tier power or magic and other arcane nonsense.

Hm, but we only get the one. Do we know what the Namekians are going to use their wishes for? Because a strong case could be made for a Hyperbolic Time Chamber no matter what, but if we could use it on ourselves personally that would be great.

 

[HoratioVonBecker]

Oozaru is better than base at using higher multipliers, and Golden Oozaru would PROBABLY be better than a FPSSJ.

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Base Oozaru would be better than FPSS, if you train it to its' FPSS cap and don't have to worry about stealth. Kaio-Ken Times Three would be enough to equal a regular Super Saiyan in speed, be four times stronger, tougher, and blastier, and be quite easy for the Oozaru to maintain.
The downside, of course, is that it'd express at 1.8 Billion, and that's well above the safety limit. So that's probably why Berra stuck to Golden Oozaru for the Dazarel fight.

 

[Pittauro]

This vague idea of a regenerator like Buu abusing their regeneration to make Kaioken work better than it does in canon has occurred to me before. Say, can we wish to have Buu-tier regeneration? I mean, if you can wish for immortality, endlessly regenerating from things besides conceptual effects or complete atomization shouldn't be impossible right? And if we don't have to worry about getting killed, we could train Kaioken so that we could use it at 2X without killing ourselves. It should also make the various SSJ states less of a problem because the damage is being auto-repaired. Still need to train in them to avoid being wasteful or having to worry about higher states messing with our minds. Might even make us technically immortal, depending on how far it goes. Of course, anyone with a high enough PL can get around it(as demonstrated when Goku killed Buu via Spirit Bomb) and pain is still going to be a thing(again, seen with Buu) and so our tail getting blasted off will still be a problem, but I'm sure it would be highly beneficial, and getting past it that way takes SSJ3-tier power or magic and other arcane nonsense.

Hm, but we only get the one. Do we know what the Namekians are going to use their wishes for? Because a strong case could be made for a Hyperbolic Time Chamber no matter what, but if we could use it on ourselves personally that would be great.

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it's not an horrible wish, though the namekians might consider it a selfish one.

Personally I think that if we asked for regeneration it wouldn't be quite as good as Bu's, or even Cell's.

I mean, we asked for the ability to manifest outside of Basson's body, and we got saddled with a very punishing time limit.

I think that the regeneration skill might result in a regeneration skill, which would then need to be trained up. Also body and ki are two different things, so even if we continued to heal/regenerate at some point we'd just be out of ki.

And, finally, damage made to our KI from the kaioken might not be as simple to heal from. After all Goku's ki sickness wasn't healed by a senzu, but it took some time.


All of this to say that such a wish is not bad or useless, but probably a bit less usefull than we might hope for. To be fair though there's a chance of similar limitation on pretty much any wish, especially the more ambitious ones.

Also, and this is still relevant, we can't actually train a kaioken 2x at full power because our wards are not good enough to cover that sort of power, though hopefully we'll solve that problem at some point.


also, a small rp spoiler

Spoiler: Kaioken

Kaioken is indeed more useful to regenerators. There are a few namekian characters who use it, and I remember at least one that can sustain x5 multipliers in a more or less stable manner. Maybe even a x6, not sure.

And then there are the majin. You might be familiar with Dragon Ball Online's spawn of buu. They are present in the Rp, and they are indeed capable of using the kaioken to even greater effectiveness than the namekians (I don't remember the multipliers, but they can keep it on for much longer than others).

It's not completely without costs though. Kaioken boosts both body AND ki, and there is a strain to that ki. Majin don't really age, or at the very least age incredibly slowly. Their Elder though actually LOOKS old, and he explained how that's a consequence of using kaioken too carelessly.

All of this to say that Kaioken, while useful, shouldn't be abused. It should be a serious-fights only technique.

Base Oozaru would be better than FPSS, if you train it to its' FPSS cap and don't have to worry about stealth. Kaio-Ken Times Three would be enough to equal a regular Super Saiyan in speed, be four times stronger, tougher, and blastier, and be quite easy for the Oozaru to maintain.
The downside, of course, is that it'd express at 1.8 Billion, and that's well above the safety limit. So that's probably why Berra stuck to Golden Oozaru for the Dazarel fight.

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of course the other downside of oozaru vs fpssj is the size. We don't HAVE an oozaru style, and normal styles are not really suited to his body.

Also while it would be easier to mantain, it would probably still be harder on the body than simply using a full power Golden Oozaru, which should be 1.5 billions. And who knows, maybe a small +50% kaioken as GO would be easier than a x4 for basic oozaru at these PLs.

 

[HoratioVonBecker]

Hm, but we only get the one. Do we know what the Namekians are going to use their wishes for? Because a strong case could be made for a Hyperbolic Time Chamber no matter what, but if we could use it on ourselves personally that would be great.

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My first choice is, of course, Everything. Starting with a wish to gather and use the Super Dragon Balls, which will probably fail, then a wish for basically all the useful artifacts we've ever heard about, in the form of a personalized Big Gete Star.
But if neither of those are viable, I would certainly consider asking if Porunga could remove all of Dandeer's mind control, possibly by blowing Garenhuld up with our ki and then restoring it sans that spellwork. (Or possibly 'all mind control'. That would provoke the Garenhulder Fear Of The Unknown deal, which might be a plus or a minus, and might kill the Masquerade-preserving mindwipes that have occasionally happened, which removing all of Dandeer's mindcontrol might do anyway.)

 

[r s]

Naw he only trained under gravity during that week. Said so himself.

It wouldn't get harder as it goes later, otherwise we wouldn't see the gap between saiyan saga and name.

Sure his fight with vegeta could have made him better, but I doubt to the degree of 10× over.

Goku used kaioken×20 fine. I'm sure the MC could

Wards go above that iirc, enough for super saiyan kaioken to be used, so like 2.3 billion. (In garenhuld)

Which allows for her to open up with kaioken ×6 or so, and have it be vastly more useful to open with than ssj.

I've already addressed why it being non stable or incompatible with ss1. ×20 boost would render it moot when you end the fight in a single blow. And you could still pop off ss1 afterwards too.

 

[Pittauro]

Wards go above that iirc, enough for super saiyan kaioken to be used, so like 2.3 billion. (In garenhuld)

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no they don't. They go up to about 1.45 if I remember right. They were explicitely stated not to be able to deal with a Golden Oozaru at full power, so less than 1.5 billions. (they barely held for the Dazarel fight, but that was because we had MULTIPLE sorcerers actively sustaining them. It's not a sustainable solution, and even then they were at the very limit of what they can hold for.

They MIGHT be able to hold out to momentarily spike above that (and even then not too much above their limit), but not for more than a second or two.

To make better wards a radically different design is needed because trying to make the current wards stronger by supercharging them with more ki makes them start to "seal" themselves.

Berra only trained the Super kaioken while actually limiting his strenght, which is why he's not actually completely sure how he'd hold up to a super kaioken x2. He never had the chance to TRULY test it. He's REASONABLY certain he would survive it if he doesn't keep it up for too long, but that's it.


Goku used a x20 for like 10 seconds at most in the frieza arc. If you're thinking of ssj blue, it's possible that the "perfect control" that's necessary for it might actually make it easier to use. In any case Goku had YEARS of experience more in that. He's also Goku, THE battle savant.

Generally speaking I don't think we should learn the kaioken because it doesn't really fit Kakara's style/mindset, but I'm not COMPLETELY against it. I just have other things I'd be more interested in, especially as we can't even use it to a x2 without having everyone a few systems away sense us.

Jaffur, on the other hand, should definitely learn the super kaioken from daddy dearest. Ward problems still apply though, at least for the near future.

My first choice is, of course, Everything. Starting with a wish to gather and use the Super Dragon Balls, which will probably fail, then a wish for basically all the useful artifacts we've ever heard about, in the form of a personalized Big Gete Star.
But if neither of those are viable, I would certainly consider asking if Porunga could remove all of Dandeer's mind control, possibly by blowing Garenhuld up with our ki and then restoring it sans that spellwork. (Or possibly 'all mind control'. That would provoke the Garenhulder Fear Of The Unknown deal, which might be a plus or a minus, and might kill the Masquerade-preserving mindwipes that have occasionally happened, which removing all of Dandeer's mindcontrol might do anyway.)

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While I expect the Super Dragon Ball wish to fail, I think it's potentially even worse if it succeeds. I mean, IMAGINE IF THE ENEMY COULD SENSE THEM BEING USED!

And, on the other hand, if he didn't sense them the obvious wish would be to destroy/banish/delete/annihilate him... which would be an incredibly anticlimactic end of the quest.

Also the super dragonballs spread themselves between Universe 6 and 7. I REALLY doubt Porunga can reach U6.

I'm still against the Big Gete Star wish. The short version of my argument was that it sounds like an incredibly complex wish that should actually count as multiple wishes, and the dragon needs to take the knowledge for how to make those artifacts somewhere... and the only one who'd know how to build them is in Hell (and maybe Bulma in even), probably beyond his reach. That's if Gero hasn't already being reincarnated, which is actually likely after more than 3 centuries. Also Magic and technology. They probably don't work that well together, if Shenron being unable to make 18 human again proves anything.

I can't really say it's TOO out of character for us to try though... we are ambitious after all. I just don't like it, and won't vote for it if it ever comes up.

Blowing Garenhuld would mean killing BILLIONS of people. Very Unkakara-like. And no, it's STILL killing them EVEN if we bring them back after that.

...on second thought, I hope the barrier on heaven doesn't mean that resurrecting people is not as easy as in the past now.

About Porunga removing Dandeer's spells... maybe. I expect a few complications with that though.

First of all her most important spells are probably supercharged with ssj ki, which probably puts them beyond Porunga's powers to undo.

Still I can't see the harm in just asking.

If we were to REALLY try the super dragonballs I think I'd want to ask Gohan if that's a good idea with a quick visit, but I can't really imagine that working without basically ending the quest, and that would be incredibly disappointing. Just from a game design standpoint I'd hope for the Super Dragonballs to basically be out of our grasp forever. They make things boring!

...ah, we also don't know the language of the gods, which is needed to make a wish on them, and I expect even teaching us that one would be beyond Porunga's power. He'd have to take that knowledge from a god after all, and I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't either impossible or forbidden to use for mortals.

 

[QTesseract]

no they don't. They go up to about 1.45 if I remember right. They were explicitely stated not to be able to deal with a Golden Oozaru at full power, so less than 1.5 billions. (they barely held for the Dazarel fight, but that was because we had MULTIPLE sorcerers actively sustaining them. It's not a sustainable solution, and even then they were at the very limit of what they can hold for.

They MIGHT be able to hold out to momentarily spike above that (and even then not too much above their limit), but not for more than a second or two.

To make better wards a radically different design is needed because trying to make the current wards stronger by supercharging them with more ki makes them start to "seal" themselves.

Berra only trained the Super kaioken while actually limiting his strenght, which is why he's not actually completely sure how he'd hold up to a super kaioken x2. He never had the chance to TRULY test it. He's REASONABLY certain he would survive it if he doesn't keep it up for too long, but that's it.


Goku used a x20 for like 10 seconds at most in the frieza arc. If you're thinking of ssj blue, it's possible that the "perfect control" that's necessary for it might actually make it easier to use. In any case Goku had YEARS of experience more in that. He's also Goku, THE battle savant.

Generally speaking I don't think we should learn the kaioken because it doesn't really fit Kakara's style/mindset, but I'm not COMPLETELY against it. I just have other things I'd be more interested in, especially as we can't even use it to a x2 without having everyone a few systems away sense us.

Jaffur, on the other hand, should definitely learn the super kaioken from daddy dearest. Ward problems still apply though, at least for the near future.


While I expect the Super Dragon Ball wish to fail, I think it's potentially even worse if it succeeds. I mean, IMAGINE IF THE ENEMY COULD SENSE THEM BEING USED!

And, on the other hand, if he didn't sense them the obvious wish would be to destroy/banish/delete/annihilate him... which would be an incredibly anticlimactic end of the quest.

Also the super dragonballs spread themselves between Universe 6 and 7. I REALLY doubt Porunga can reach U6.

I'm still against the Big Gete Star wish. The short version of my argument was that it sounds like an incredibly complex wish that should actually count as multiple wishes, and the dragon needs to take the knowledge for how to make those artifacts somewhere... and the only one who'd know how to build them is in Hell (and maybe Bulma in even), probably beyond his reach. That's if Gero hasn't already being reincarnated, which is actually likely after more than 3 centuries. Also Magic and technology. They probably don't work that well together, if Shenron being unable to make 18 human again proves anything.

I can't really say it's TOO out of character for us to try though... we are ambitious after all. I just don't like it, and won't vote for it if it ever comes up.

Blowing Garenhuld would mean killing BILLIONS of people. Very Unkakara-like. And no, it's STILL killing them EVEN if we bring them back after that.

...on second thought, I hope the barrier on heaven doesn't mean that resurrecting people is not as easy as in the past now.

About Porunga removing Dandeer's spells... maybe. I expect a few complications with that though.

First of all her most important spells are probably supercharged with ssj ki, which probably puts them beyond Porunga's powers to undo.

Still I can't see the harm in just asking.

If we were to REALLY try the super dragonballs I think I'd want to ask Gohan if that's a good idea with a quick visit, but I can't really imagine that working without basically ending the quest, and that would be incredibly disappointing. Just from a game design standpoint I'd hope for the Super Dragonballs to basically be out of our grasp forever. They make things boring!

...ah, we also don't know the language of the gods, which is needed to make a wish on them, and I expect even teaching us that one would be beyond Porunga's power. He'd have to take that knowledge from a god after all, and I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't either impossible or forbidden to use for mortals.

Click to shrink...

Probably because they can't wish away the enemy. Reminder from a previous time this convo came up:

The Super Dragon Balls can do anything, said Zeno -- anything. He spoke truthfully.

To the limits of his knowledge, at the time.

Click to shrink...

 

[Pittauro]

Probably because they can't wish away the enemy. Reminder from a previous time this convo came up:

Click to shrink...

uh. I completely forgot about this bit.

 

[PoptartProdigy]

Spoiler: Trigger Warning

This omake is set from the perspective of Vegeta during Babidi's attempt to control him, and his subsequent actions under said mind control. This was not a nice version of Vegeta and this was hard to write, what with the mass ending of life that Vegeta commits. If you are okay with reading this from the perspective of the killer, then you may continue. But you have been warned.

Majin Vegeta​

Spoiler: Omake

As you stand within the confines of this excuse of a ship, arms crossed as you typically are, you feel the splitting pain of a massive headache as someone enters your mind. As you grunt and groan, you grab onto your head and let out pained sounds in your discomfort.

You feel the prodding inside your mind, an internal attack from that freak, Babibi. The agony is unrelenting, hitting at the very fiber of your being, within even your soul.

"Vegeta, hey, what's wrong?!" Kakarot's eldest demands of you.

You can't answer him, you let out a scream of pain as you grab onto your head again, desperately trying to fight it with everything you have. It is one of the most agonizing things you have ever felt. Flashes and visions of your past circle in your mind.

"Vegeta, what's going on?" Kakarot questions you.

"Somethings… Attacking me!"

"Where!? We can't see anything!" He declares.

"Inside!" You manage to let out through the pain.

You continue to scream, and Babidi continues his attack. He's not letting up, and you never could have prepared for this. You had thought most of what he was now using against you was gone.

"Fight it! Resist!" Supreme Kai begs of you.

"I can't!"

"You must!" He begs once more.

You only continue to scream, fighting this with everything in your power. You think of Trunks and Bulma. Those who you'd never admit to it, but. . .

"That's it! Resist!"

You continue to scream, powering up and transforming, bathing the inside of the vessel with a familiar golden glow. Even with the power of Super Saiyan, Babidi still invades your mind and seeks control over you.

"Don't let him win Vegeta! Don't let him do it! That's it! Fight! Fight it!" The insufferable…. He keeps encouraging you.

You writhe around, trying to hold yourself together. Flashes of who you once were come back to haunt you.

The pain you've caused.

"Supreme Kai, what's happening to him?" Kakarot's question isn't answered straight away.

The people you've murdered.

"Vegeta no! Don't let him! You've changed! You're not that way anymore! Babidi has no claim over you!"

The planets you've enslaved.

"What's Babidi doing!? Trying to kill him!?" Gohan demands an answer.

You never had any mercy for them.

"Worse than that, he's trying to take over his mind and enslave him so that he'll do what Babidi wishes him to do."

They never stood a chance against you, and you killed them.

"Isn't there any way we can help him!?"

You roar and howl in agony and pain as the memories attack you, your own evil used against you. The sins of your past a weapon that Babidi wields with honed expertise.

"He struggles because his heart is impure! He has to choose himself! Don't let him take you Vegeta! Let go! The past is the past. Don't think of it, be innocent and clear."

You manage a response, "How can you say that? I'm not innocent."

Truly, you're not. Everything you've done in your life. Slaughtering and killing innocents in the name of Freeza. Causing the deaths of Kakarot's friends indirectly. Massacring that village on Namek. Allowing Cell to achieve his final form. In search of innocence, only guilt is found.

Your struggle only intensifies, at some point, you had fallen to your knees. You continue to scream as you try to fight this off. Red energy begins to flow around you while you lift off of the ground. You only continue to scream, desperately fighting to keep your old desires from surfacing. You have a family. . .

"No...No way," You only just make out Gohan's disbelief as you rise further, screaming more.

Energy almost explodes from you, washing over the room as your vocal cords are pushed further and further by agonized screams escaping you. Snarls and growls begin to emanate from within you.

That's right, Vegeta…. You'll get what you've always wanted…

"Don't let them do it Vegeta! Don't let them use you! You're stronger than they ar-" Gohan never finishes his sentence, as an arc of red lightning shoots out from your body and sends him careening across the room. Your screams only further.

You'll no longer be second best.

Through your screams, you make out Kakarot crying out to his son, something you . . .

"Gohan! Are you okay!?"

You scream.

"Yeah, I'm fine." You overhear, if only just.

The room begins to shake due to the sheer amount of power you're putting out trying to fight this.

"Vegeta! No!"

"Fight it Vegeta!"

You only continue to scream, desperate for anything to hold onto mentally. You're certain had anyone been around the ship, they'd hear you even this far underground. You know the Earth itself is shaking as you continue to scream.

Your eyes shake as your mind races, something inside you tells you that you want this, and you do. For years you've been second best. That clown has made a fool of you, time and time again. Shame has been pressed upon you every time you so much as think of his name, much less look at him. He's surpassed you in so many ways, and now you finally have the chance to get even.

Finally, you give in.

"What a monstrous power! It's terrible! I can't even approach it!"

Your aura fades, and you land on your feet. At first, the sounds of pain are heard from within, and they soon turn into laughter as you raise your head, revealing the Majin Symbol upon your forehead.

Kakarot, Gohan, and the Supreme Kai gaze upon you, jaws dropped and in shock at the sight. You feel powerful, beyond anything you have ever experienced before.

"It's… Too late!" Supreme Kai exclaims.

You grin before you all hear that voice that once was only inside your head.

"Let's give you a more interesting place to fight, Papparapapa!"

The four of you are transported once more, this time you recognize your surroundings. The World Martial Arts Tournament, in the very center of the ring. The crowd gawks at you, questions abound as to how you got here, what are you doing. Of course, none of that drivel matters. You allowed this to happen for one thing, and one thing alone. Kakarot.

"Hey! We're back at the tournament!" Gohan announces. How astute.

The announcer eventually pipes up, "Excuse me, gentlemen, the championship has already been concluded! You all look very strong but there's always next year."

Before anyone else can pipe in, you make your statement, "We're just here for a little exhibition match."

The Announcer then yells out, ignoring you, "Ahh! Goku, I didn't see you back there! Welcome! I'm afraid you and your friends have arrived a little too late.

This is getting annoying. You glare at the man as he approaches Goku, ill intent fills your body.

Kakarot tries to warn the fool, "Look out!"

Too late, Kakarot. Your surge of power sends the annoying man flying. Fortunately for him, Gohan flies up to catch the useless snot. Kakarot, you've seen, took the blast for the Supreme Kai. That other annoying champion has no one to save him you notice, as he flies into the brick wall and leaves an imprint much the size of his own body. You smile, letting out a small chuckle.

Once again, Babidi seeks his way into your mind, trying to give you a command.

"Vegeta, this is your new master Babidi speaking, it's time for you to have a little fun! You can start by killing your friends!"

You struggle slightly, before overcoming his influence, "I won't, my goal is to fight Kakarot, the others are nothing."

Kakarot's face shows nothing other than betrayal, as he questions you, "Vegeta, how could you?"

Having turned to face him, you stare that pathetic warrior down. He knows what you've done. Even as much of a fool as he, there's still enough of a brain inside of him to know. It's almost impressive. You raise your hand to point a finger at this man.

"It's time, Kakarot."

You open your palm, readying a blast. Kakarot's face goes to one of almost fear, and shock as he watches you.

"Vegeta no!" His words mean nothing.

You chuckle, sending a blast at the fool. He blocks, and you simply turn it into an energy wave that pushes him further back. If he'll only defend, you'll simply overwhelm him.

"Haaaaa!" You yell as you throw more power into the energy wave, enough force to keep pushing Kakarot backward in the ring, towards the very edge of it. Eventually, he concedes and flips out of the way. You don't stop the blast as it careens into the audience.

The wave simply continues, finding little resistance even after exiting the arena wall. Nearby buildings in its path are found wanting for strength, and fall before your power. After the blast subsides, you can make out a mushroom cloud in the distance. It matters little to you how many you've just killed.

You can hear the screams from the audience, and the disbelief as Kakarot and Gohan gasp out in shock. You begin to chuckle once more. Red lighting flickers around your aura.

In the distance, you can barely make out Bulma's shocked words at your actions, "This is, too awful.. .There must be some…"

In any other circumstance, you would pity how much she cares for you.

The panicked onlookers begin to flee in terror, their screams filling the air. This simply causes you to chuckle as you fix your gaze upon Kakarot. He faces you, his face boiling with fury over your attack.

He takes a scolding tone, "Shame on you. The Vegeta I know would never have done this."

You simply grin. Somewhere, Gohan begins to beg you to stop your actions, but you ignore the brat. Kakarot is your only focus.

"Hey! Maniac!" You hear from behind you, "I'm afraid I can't allow you to move another inch! Your crime spree will end at my glorious fists! You've come head to head with the Champion of the World big guy!"

You just begin to laugh and laugh, and laugh. The man next to him mutters something that doesn't matter to you.

"On second thought fighting, you would be too much of a joke, so here's what I think we should do. You seem to have unresolved issues, I say you two fight for an exhausting amount of time and then I'll take over-"

Enough.

"Quiet!"

He cowers in fear.

"How about it? Shall we commence?" You demand from Kakarot.

"This isn't the time, Vegeta."

"You'll fight with me, Kakarot, unless of course, you want more bodies to pile up on your conscience!"

That got his attention.

"Vegeta, certainly you didn't." He understands now.

You chuckle.

His face hardens, "How sad, I didn't think you were weak enough to be controlled."

The other two wear shock on their faces, with Gohan trying to stop his father from antagonizing you further.

"Answer me! Vegeta! Did you let yourself be a slave!?"

You raise your left arm, hand ready for another blast and face your palm to the stands to your immediate left. Your smile never leaves your face. You fire a single blast. Kakarot looks on in horror. The stands explode, and your hair brustles in the wind caused by the shockwave as smoke seeps through the air.

Then, you answer him, "Tell me! Is it slavery when you get what you want?"

You cock your head back as your grin only expands on your face. Screams fill the air once more as panic ensues further. Kakarot transfixes his eyes upon the slaughter, anger welling up inside. Slowly, his eyes return to you. You chuckle once again.

Gohan stands up to you, "Stop it you don't know what you're doing!"

You growl, before yelling at him and sending a shockwave of ki at him, "Stand aside!"

It knocks him away with ease, this was the warrior who bested Cell?

"This does not concern you! It's between me and your circus clown of a father."

"Circus clown? Well, that's a new one."

Kakarot's hair begins to move, almost as if touched by the wind. You know better. Finally, it starts to stand up on edge. He lets out a sound of effort, and transforms into a Super Saiyan.

"No Goku, you musn't! If you fight him here you will be doing precisely what Babidi wishes! Every injury that Vegeta causes will be sent back to the ship, and Buu will be revived!"

"Tell me Vegeta, with that stamp on your head I know Babidi's been giving you orders. Is this one of them? Are you trying to fight me because of him, or is this the same old story between you and me? Which one!?"

Gohan interrupts, "Does it really matter?"

Oh, but it does. Truly, this has always been the case. The humiliation you've suffered must now come to an end, and you know Kakarot understands.

"Not to you, Gohan, but to a warrior it matters greatly. And you know this as well as I do, Kakarot, at the end of the day you'll be back to the dead, and I will not miss this opportunity."

The Supreme Kai still bothers to stick his head into your affairs, looking at you as he speaks, "Who are you people? Don't you see that the Universe matters more than your meaningless squabble?"

That's done it. Your fury begins to take control once more.

"Meaningless, huh!? What do you know of meaningless!?" You power-up, rage flowing through you, "Spend most of your life ruled by another, watch your race dwindle to a handful, and then, tell me what has more meaning than your own strength! I have in me the blood of a Saiyan prince, he is nothing but a joke! Yet I've had to watch him surpass me in strength, my destiny, thrown to the wayside! He's… He's even saved my life as if I were a helpless child! He has stolen my honor, and his debts, must be paid!"

The two of you continue to stare one another down, Kakarot as unyielding as you. Supreme Kai looking between the two of you.

Kakarot snarls, before speaking, "Babidi! Transport us to a place away from people! If you give me that, then I will fight Vegeta."

At last.

"So be it," Supreme Kai steps in front of you and facing towards Kakarot, extending his arms as he does so, "If you truly believe this is the right decision, then you will have to get around me to do it!"

You await Kakarot's choice. It feels like an eternity, time dragging by. You almost respect the Kai for offering to sacrifice his life. Almost

"Don't do this, Supreme Kai."

"Goku, I'm afraid I have no choice."

"Neither do I."

Kakarot raises his palm, and a sphere of blue energy begins to form. You gasp, even for Kakarot, this is… Well, he is a Saiyan after all.

The sphere only continues to grow in power, as Kakarot stares the Supreme Kai down. Kakarot's face is unyielding, you can tell that he's serious about this. There is no doubt in your mind that if that blasted Kai doesn't move that Kakarot will obliterate him.

It was never really a question, as the Kai puts his head and arms down, admitting defeat before he says anything, "Fine, do what you will. I can't stop you."

He then steps out from between the two of you. Despite his admitting defeat, there is still some semblance of respect.

"I'm sorry, Supreme Kai," Kakarot claims, though you, for one, cannot hear the sincerity in his voice.

"So am I."

Kakarot once more turns his attention to you. You smile with glee.

Within an instant, the four of you now stand in a desert, far away from anyone else.

"I trust you'll have no more excuses." You stare him down, firm in what you intend to do.

"None."

"Dad, don't do this!" Gohan yells out.

"It's alright, there's no point resisting what cannot be helped," Supreme Kai speaks to Gohan with an almost eerie calmness, as he walks towards the entrance to Babidi's chamber, he then turns his gaze to Gohan, "We will just have to continue our efforts with a new strategy. While you two fight up here, Gohan and I will break open the ship's entrance and continue our assault against Babidi and Dabura. I believe we still have a chance at stopping them before Buu's revival. If tampering with the ship's entrance ruptures Buu's shell, it will still be better than letting him reach full power from the energy lost by Goku. After all the time I've spent tracking Majin Buu, I will avert him with my own hands."

Supreme Kai raises his fist, readying himself to strike the entryway into Babidi's ship.

Kill him! The only way is to kill the Supreme Kai! Yes, kill him Vegeta!

Once again, you grab at your head as Babidi tries to wear away at your mind and your willpower. Once more, you struggle, and you fight as the others look on in shock. You scream and again fall to your knees as you struggle.

"Babidi's entered his mind."

You can't afford to let him live Vegeta!

Pain, intense pain as you put your face on the ground, holding onto your chest as you writhe in agony.

Kill him Vegeta, kill him!

You begin to rise, the mark on your forehead throbbing with pain as you stare down Kakarot.

"I refuse."

You can hear Babidi's shocked gasp in your mind.

"Your business with the Kai, it means nothing to me. Kakarot is my only objective."

That's amusing Vegeta, but I'm serious. With every fiber in your body, I command you to destroy! Kill! Kill the Kai!

"N-no…. Get out of my head! I already told you, I… Will not be distracted from this anymore! I won't! It will take more than head games to stop me! You may have invaded my mind and my body. . . . But there is one thing a Saiyan always keeps. . . HIS PRIDE!!!!!!!!!!!!"

You surge your power to maximum, shattering Babidi's connection to your mind. The shockwaves of your surge in power shatter nearby mountains, and then you slowly ease yourself out of the second Super Saiyan form, fixing your gaze upon Kakarot. Finally, you will get what you want.

Click to shrink...

Canon! Bonus to interactions with Vegeta.

Well, they were a spacefaring race who had access to the Sight. It seems unlikely, in retrospect, that they would've all died out.
Also, we have confirmation that Old Family is Lapis and Lazuli, thanks to a pretty-much-wasted Sight action. So you can confirm that.

Can I convince you to clarify this to its' current standard? "Cross-pollination will be limited" is quite a bit different from "certain in-Quest events will never get in-Quest explanations, and discussing this in any detail may get your post spoilered".
It'd make it a lot easier to remember, I think.

Click to shrink...

As stated: if it relates to the RP, you spoil it.

 

[r s]

"The Super Dragon Balls can do anything, said Zeno -- anything. He spoke truthfully.

To the limits of his knowledge, at the time."

"To the limits of his knowledge, at the time"
-poptart

Wonder who that applies to...

Fuck.

 

[HoratioVonBecker]

As stated: if it relates to the RP, you spoil it.

Click to shrink...

"I ask that if you wish to discuss spoilers from it that you've received, please do so in clearly-labelled spoiler boxes, for the benefit of those who prefer to refrain."
The specification of spoilers implies that there is non-spoiler info in said RP. Is there actually info from the RP that isn't spoilers? I'd assumed there was, and that it was any stuff that would not/could not be relevant to future events of this quest, but if there isn't, tweaking the phrase to make it clearer is something I'd be tremendously grateful for.

(they barely held for the Dazarel fight, but that was because we had MULTIPLE sorcerers actively sustaining them. It's not a sustainable solution, and even then they were at the very limit of what they can hold for.

Click to shrink...

Actually, I'm fairly sure we were simply outside them. Surrounding, but fortunately trackless, systems could have felt us that time - but on the other hand, Dazarel wasn't exactly subtle, and he was a far more immediate existential threat.

While I expect the Super Dragon Ball wish to fail, I think it's potentially even worse if it succeeds. I mean, IMAGINE IF THE ENEMY COULD SENSE THEM BEING USED!

Click to shrink...

I don't seriously expect it to work, but if it somehow did, we could wish up a hundred sets of dragon balls. We could ask for our own universe, running at ten-billion-to-one speed, to train in. We could ask for powers perfectly suited to counter the Enemy's, or for a loyal servant that can do the same. We'd have options, is what I mean to say.

I can't really say it's TOO out of character for us to try though... we are ambitious after all. I just don't like it, and won't vote for it if it ever comes up.

Click to shrink...

Why don't you like it? I'm quite sure there are challenges it wouldn't trivialize - even if it's available in full, instead of pared down to Big Gete Star Host Body, the main advantage it gives is scale. Kakarabots could hold a star system, or invade one, but surely they would have a range limit. It'd make her a full faction instead of a solo champion, but not really more than that. There's also a pretty hard cap on how many could participate in a boss fight, since these would be both robots (and thus, probably not a great source for the Spirit Bomb) and Kakara-based (and thus likely unable to count more than once toward it).
Basically, this wish would let us play in the galactic war right now, and also let us have a good chance of retaking Garenhuld before Tamar's fleet arrives - along with possibly providing more housing space, if that turns out to be necessary. But it wouldn't trivialize the next phases, which involve saving Toru, dealing with the New Cold Empire, stabilizing the galaxy, solving several mysteries, and possibly maybe eventually taking the fight to the Enemy.
It'd just be a useful tool, and an awesome spaceship. Would you vote for an awesome spaceship?

Blowing Garenhuld would mean killing BILLIONS of people. Very Unkakara-like. And no, it's STILL killing them EVEN if we bring them back after that.

Click to shrink...

I dispute that. I mean, really. It's not even as bad as open-heart surgery, where you aren't literally bet the world sure that you can revive them afterward.
Plus, we might just be able to donate the ki to Porunga.

Oh, just a moment.
[X][ASK] Has anyone tried wishing for the Earth dragonballs back? Is it just impossible because Shenron's year-limit had expired?

 

[Terrabrand]

"I ask that if you wish to discuss spoilers from it that you've received, please do so in clearly-labelled spoiler boxes, for the benefit of those who prefer to refrain."
The specification of spoilers implies that there is non-spoiler info in said RP. Is there actually info from the RP that isn't spoilers? I'd assumed there was, and that it was any stuff that would not/could not be relevant to future events of this quest, but if there isn't, tweaking the phrase to make it clearer is something I'd be tremendously grateful for.

Click to shrink...

this is really not complicated. 'can be learned from the RP' =/= spoiler if it can also be learned here. 'can only be learned from the RP' = RP spoiler, end line. Being in the RP doesn't make it automatically RP Spoilers, that would be silly, but being Not In The Quest But In The RP does, end line.

 

[Pittauro]

"I ask that if you wish to discuss spoilers from it that you've received, please do so in clearly-labelled spoiler boxes, for the benefit of those who prefer to refrain."
The specification of spoilers implies that there is non-spoiler info in said RP. Is there actually info from the RP that isn't spoilers? I'd assumed there was, and that it was any stuff that would not/could not be relevant to future events of this quest, but if there isn't, tweaking the phrase to make it clearer is something I'd be tremendously grateful for.

Click to shrink...

Horatio, I lost count of how many times you brought up the rp spoiler discussion.

It's easy: if it's information from the RP that we don't know from events happening in this quest, it's a spoiler. STOP.

PLEASE, stop bringing it up this often. It looks like you trying to ask the same question a thousand times, from a thousand different angles, but worded slightly differentlyin hope of getting a different answer.

We're not even forbidden from talking about it! I should know, I wrote rp spoilers pretty often, Basically speaking of all the various transformations and power levels we can guess from it! We just have to use spoiler boxes.

I don't seriously expect it to work, but if it somehow did, we could wish up a hundred sets of dragon balls. We could ask for our own universe, running at ten-billion-to-one speed, to train in. We could ask for powers perfectly suited to counter the Enemy's, or for a loyal servant that can do the same. We'd have options, is what I mean to say.

Click to shrink...

I think the chances of it working are so low it's not even worth considering. After all if the otherworld is closed off in fear of the enemy, passage to the other universes is most likely closed as well, and half of the dragonballs would be in U6.

That's without considering how the gods are more than likely keeping an eye on them.

We also don't know the language. I think that, in the end, wishing for the super dragonballs it's just not worth it. We'd need AT LEAST 2 wishes to get them (for the dragonballs and for the language), and I completely expect BOTH of these wishes to fail.

tl;dr: not interested.

Actually, I'm fairly sure we were simply outside them. Surrounding, but fortunately trackless, systems could have felt us that time - but on the other hand, Dazarel wasn't exactly subtle, and he was a far more immediate existential threat.

Click to shrink...

I'd have to check and I don't want to right now, but I think we got the sorcerers to establish temporary wards around the battle site.

Why don't you like it? I'm quite sure there are challenges it wouldn't trivialize - even if it's available in full, instead of pared down to Big Gete Star Host Body, the main advantage it gives is scale. Kakarabots could hold a star system, or invade one, but surely they would have a range limit. It'd make her a full faction instead of a solo champion, but not really more than that. There's also a pretty hard cap on how many could participate in a boss fight, since these would be both robots (and thus, probably not a great source for the Spirit Bomb) and Kakara-based (and thus likely unable to count more than once toward it).
Basically, this wish would let us play in the galactic war right now, and also let us have a good chance of retaking Garenhuld before Tamar's fleet arrives - along with possibly providing more housing space, if that turns out to be necessary. But it wouldn't trivialize the next phases, which involve saving Toru, dealing with the New Cold Empire, stabilizing the galaxy, solving several mysteries, and possibly maybe eventually taking the fight to the Enemy.
It'd just be a useful tool, and an awesome spaceship. Would you vote for an awesome spaceship?

Click to shrink...

I already said why. Other people said why too, and I mostly agreed with them.

The short version is that I don't think it's a wish but something like between 4 and 7 wishes, I dislike how it would shape the narrative, and I can't imagine the namekians hearing that and thinking "what a great idea Kakara!". Other than that I can't imagine it working in any but the most limited ways. I'll remind you that when we asked for a way to manifest a body we got saddled with a pretty punishing time limit. I expect such a wish to come with much worse downsides, like Kakara completely losing her own body in exchange for the ability to make the bots (Cooler was, after all, basically fused with the thing.)

And even ignoring all of that, i simply dislike the idea. It's not the story I want to read.

I'm not necessarily against min-maxing, but this goes too far for me. Good luck if you end up proposing it when we get our next chance to make a wish, but I'm against it.

also no, I wouldn't vote for an awesome spaceship. I'd vote for the best hyperbolic time chamber we can get, or something to help against Dandeer's magic. I'm fine with the Senzu and scout ships for now, or whatever the namekian could provide us. Or possibly Kai Kai if we can get THAT through a wish. THAT ONE I'd really like (even If I expect it to be beyond Porunga too as he'd need to get the knowledge of the technique from Shin, a God.

Well, unless Shin actually allows it. It's not impossible. He's still beyond the afterlife barrier though, which might mean he's beyond Porunga's reach.

I dispute that. I mean, really. It's not even as bad as open-heart surgery, where you aren't literally bet the world sure that you can revive them afterward.
Plus, we might just be able to donate the ki to Porunga.

Oh, just a moment.

Click to shrink...

Didn't we already have a conversation about killing and resurrecting Garenhuld and pop, with Poptart actually saying that no, To Kakara it's still murder? I could have sword we did, but maybe I remember wrong.

 

[HoratioVonBecker]

this is really not complicated. 'can be learned from the RP' =/= spoiler if it can also be learned here. 'can only be learned from the RP' = RP spoiler, end line. Being in the RP doesn't make it automatically RP Spoilers, that would be silly, but being Not In The Quest But In The RP does, end line.

Click to shrink...

Please calm down a bit? I'm not intending to do anything unreasonable, and you seem to be treating me as an enemy.

 

[PoptartProdigy]

"I ask that if you wish to discuss spoilers from it that you've received, please do so in clearly-labelled spoiler boxes, for the benefit of those who prefer to refrain."
The specification of spoilers implies that there is non-spoiler info in said RP. Is there actually info from the RP that isn't spoilers? I'd assumed there was, and that it was any stuff that would not/could not be relevant to future events of this quest, but if there isn't, tweaking the phrase to make it clearer is something I'd be tremendously grateful for.

Click to shrink...

If it can only be found in the RP, it is an RP spoiler.