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I think our three best arguments for "saving" Dandeer are:
  1. It will play into her narrative of Jaffur being homicidally insane if he just kills her/has her killed. Even if she's killed and her faction disbanded, that's still a political albatross hanging around his neck he doesn't need.
  2. It's a waste of a Master Sorcerer - better to have her banished to a shack in the middle of nowhere to live like a hermit and maybe research something useful/have a Master Sorcerer on call who is very aware that she doesn't have the option of refusing any requests/orders.
  3. (Not to be made to Jaffur directly) Dandeer is an evil monster, but I think it'll fuck Jaffur up even further if he kills her and has to live with that. Better to just have her out of sight and mind for the rest of his life - she doesn't deserve to have the effect on him her execution will likely have.
 
To be honest, if we started now on mental health reform we'd have a better case when it does happen.
Fixing mental health in saiyan society sounds like the kind of thing where you have to keep working on it for decades, if only to train up the needed psychiatrists. It takes time and would almost certainly be an ongoing project where most of Kakara's actual work on the problem takes place after she presumably becomes Lady Kakara.

I wouldn't think so lightly of Kakara to be honest. She has yet to truly bring any of the goodwill her recent feats have provided to bear. I mean, Vegetans call her Princess Kakara for the ancestors' sake! And that's to say nothing of the worship I have no doubt they'll feel for her when it comes out that not only had she gone against her father, Lord Goku, for the sake of their prince, but had founded a conspiracy around it.
She's still one person and this would be her trying to convince people to train an entire new class of medical expert and start visiting them.

It's not that she can't do this, it's that it is simply not the category of thing that can be done in the span of a month. Trying to make meaningful progress on psychiatric health infrastructure in a month is going to be like trying to get a baby to be born in one month by putting nine women on the job.

I think our three best arguments for "saving" Dandeer are:

It will play into her narrative of Jaffur being homicidally insane if he just kills her/has her killed. Even if she's killed and her faction disbanded, that's still a political albatross hanging around his neck he doesn't need.
You're right, but ultimately whether people have a lot of respect for Jaffur's sanity matters less if Berra (the only remaining royal not in on the conspiracy) is aware of why he's doing it. Jaffur looked crazy during the events of the Sealing because nobody knew why he was doing what he did and his epically poor Communications skills prevented him from recruiting any allies

It's a waste of a Master Sorcerer - better to have her banished to a shack in the middle of nowhere to live like a hermit and maybe research something useful/have a Master Sorcerer on call who is very aware that she doesn't have the option of refusing any requests/orders.
This also gives a master sorceress unlimited time to plot revenge for (from her point of view) destroying her family. Dangerous game.

(Not to be made to Jaffur directly) Dandeer is an evil monster, but I think it'll fuck Jaffur up even further if he kills her and has to live with that. Better to just have her out of sight and mind for the rest of his life - she doesn't deserve to have the effect on him her execution will likely have.
I totally agree with this and so might Apra and Yammar and Berra.
 
Regarding this discussion about saiyan psichologist, we know that Berra has been trying to encourage saiyans to look at said profession better ever since the Sundering. It hasn't been that successful yet since ten years later there are only 3 saiyan psichologists.
 
I think our three best arguments for "saving" Dandeer are:
  1. It will play into her narrative of Jaffur being homicidally insane if he just kills her/has her killed. Even if she's killed and her faction disbanded, that's still a political albatross hanging around his neck he doesn't need.
  2. It's a waste of a Master Sorcerer - better to have her banished to a shack in the middle of nowhere to live like a hermit and maybe research something useful/have a Master Sorcerer on call who is very aware that she doesn't have the option of refusing any requests/orders.
  3. (Not to be made to Jaffur directly) Dandeer is an evil monster, but I think it'll fuck Jaffur up even further if he kills her and has to live with that. Better to just have her out of sight and mind for the rest of his life - she doesn't deserve to have the effect on him her execution will likely have.
Kinslayer Jaffur doesn't have a nice ring to it, that's for sure.
e:
I really wish we'd had this discussion before voting closed. We could have actually made plans around this, like maybe talking over the whole "killing Dandeer will fuck Jaffur up" thing with Apra, so we could get our plans straight before we go public, but now Kakara's got
absolutely no problems with the current Unsealing plan.
 
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Kinslayer Jaffur doesn't have a nice ring to it, that's for sure.
e:
I really wish we'd had this discussion before voting closed. We could have actually made plans around this, like maybe talking over the whole "killing Dandeer will fuck Jaffur up" thing with Apra, so we could get our plans straight before we go public, but now Kakara's got
Well, we don't have any problems with the unsealing itself - just that in the immediate aftermath, when Jaffur and Yammar pass judgement maybe they should consider these points. I'm not going to be too broken up about Dandeer dying, and I think the situation is sufficiently out of Kakara's hands that it shouldn't be too great a blow to her no-killing preferences.
 
Well, we don't have any problems with the unsealing itself - just that in the immediate aftermath, when Jaffur and Yammar pass judgement maybe they should consider these points. I'm not going to be too broken up about Dandeer dying, and I think the situation is sufficiently out of Kakara's hands that it shouldn't be too great a blow to her no-killing preferences.
I don't really agree. If I potentially had the power to stop someone I know from dying and did nothing, it'd fuck me up, and from my impression Kakara's mindset is much stronger in that direction. It's not just a no-killing preference, it's a no-dying one.

Protector said:
Meerak forced you to confront the question of what kind of person you really are. It was a painful year, figuring out the answer, but now you have it. You have your powers so that you can keep people safe. Everybody. Even those who don't want to be. People who are working to hurt others need to be stopped, but that doesn't mean you need to sink to their level. At the end of the day, the wicked need to be stopped, but you aren't them -- and you won't become them. That might mean that you need to talk them down, or it might mean that you need to fight. So be it. But no matter what, you know one thing about yourself: Thou shalt not kill. You gain heavy vote weighting against the use of lethal force on sapient beings, and will never default to it of your own will, even against Hated Enemies. The use of lethal force will never be presented as a default option; the players must write such options in if they want them. However, Kakara now gains a moderate bonus on all checks made in service of actions taken to protect the lives or safety of others. You no longer encounter barriers or penalties to combat skill training. This trait may, still, be developed further...

"Even those who don't want to be" kind of implies to me that her position is relevant on a societal level as well.
 
... There we go! You're keeping the revelation of 17 and 18 kinda under wraps and have absolutely no problems with the current Unsealing plan.
Just to be clear, that's the outcome of a vote in which four people voted "no" and six people voted "yes, I have a problem" but couldn't coordinate on a plan?

Because while I'm prepared to acknowledge that "you don't suggest a different plan" is an accurate reflection of the vote for purposes of character action...

"You have no problems with the plan" is very much NOT an accurate representation of the vote for purposes of character attitudes. "You are troubled" or "you have vague misgivings" or "you're not sure how to do things any better and don't know who to ask for help or advice" would all be much more accurate.

The vote was on "do you oppose the plan" not on "do you have a problem with the plan Y/N" I am extremely confident you've had the experience of being troubled about a plan or thinking something was wrong with it, without having a better idea or without being sure which idea would be an improvement

And yes, I'm taking you literally, on the "absolutely no problem" interpretation. Because without the "discussion informs character attitudes," card in play... Well, QM interpretation of votes is the only way for the questgoers to have any affect on the character's opinions. Having the QM overbroadly interpret a plurality vote of "no, I will not oppose the existing plan" to mean "the character is happy with the situation and has no problems with the plan" is... kind of a problem in that case and should be noticed by the players.

Kinslayer Jaffur doesn't have a nice ring to it, that's for sure.
e:
I really wish we'd had this discussion before voting closed. We could have actually made plans around this, like maybe talking over the whole "killing Dandeer will fuck Jaffur up" thing with Apra, so we could get our plans straight before we go public, but now Kakara's got
I'm going to be up-front with you, I agree that the "no problems" thing is bullshit. While only ten people voted on PLAN, and nothing drew a bandwagon, it was pretty obvious that of those voting, there was not a majority in favor of 'this is a great plan I am totally happy with.'

I don't really agree. If I potentially had the power to stop someone I know from dying and did nothing, it'd fuck me up, and from my impression Kakara's mindset is much stronger in that direction. It's not just a no-killing preference, it's a no-dying one.

"Even those who don't want to be" kind of implies to me that her position is relevant on a societal level as well.
That said, Kakara not opposing the current un-Sealing plan is not equivalent to Kakara "doing nothing to stop Dandeer from dying."

It is very likely that we're going to have opportunities during the execution of the plan to do things that affect the likelihood of Dandeer living or dying. The big issue isn't "will we have a chance to at least try to avoid her death," it's "will we succeed in avoiding her death," which is a very different order of problem.

[Though admittedly the existence of a faction of voters who actively wants Dandeer dead or doesn't think that 'Protector' should mean Kakara has to try very hard to argue for her survival complicates this picture]
 
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I think our three best arguments for "saving" Dandeer are:
  1. It will play into her narrative of Jaffur being homicidally insane if he just kills her/has her killed. Even if she's killed and her faction disbanded, that's still a political albatross hanging around his neck he doesn't need.
  2. It's a waste of a Master Sorcerer - better to have her banished to a shack in the middle of nowhere to live like a hermit and maybe research something useful/have a Master Sorcerer on call who is very aware that she doesn't have the option of refusing any requests/orders.
  3. (Not to be made to Jaffur directly) Dandeer is an evil monster, but I think it'll fuck Jaffur up even further if he kills her and has to live with that. Better to just have her out of sight and mind for the rest of his life - she doesn't deserve to have the effect on him her execution will likely have.
4) Her husband loves cares about her. At least, in his Sealed form. As she does about him.
And we really don't want to find out if a Super Saiyan can break out of a seal in grief.
Especially since we have no idea what kind of Seal she used, and if it's deadman switched, or simply keyed to her life force.

Jaffur's situation is complicated enough as it is; if Vegeta breaks his seal, we're likely to come to a point where only one person walks away from that fight. It really isn't a good look to kill both your parents, no matter how justified.

And with things as they are, we really shouldn't be killing off Super Saiyans we might need in the future.
 
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[X][PLAN] Phone a Friend for Help
-[X][PLAN] Talk to Grandma Apra about what Kakara wants -- in order: Jaffur to not go SSJ2, Jaffur to not personally kill his mother, and Dandeer to not die -- she's not really sure how she can manage these.
[X][1718] Tell nobody outside the other nobles. This information must be handled carefully. As the number of people in on the secret widens, the pressure to act grows, and establishing any contact with the wider galaxy at all cannot be done cautiously enough.

Edit: Damn. Missed the vote.
 
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I don't really agree. If I potentially had the power to stop someone I know from dying and did nothing, it'd fuck me up, and from my impression Kakara's mindset is much stronger in that direction. It's not just a no-killing preference, it's a no-dying one.
If the Vegetans decide to sentence her to death, there's straight-up nothing we can do except maybe free her and go on the run with her, which would be ridiculous. We just don't have enough direct influence over that decision - we can (and will) try and convince Jaffur not to, but that's as much as we can do. If that's not enough, then no, we don't have the power to stop her from dying.
 
@PoptartProdigy
Is "Patriarch/Matriarch" title granted to all previous Lords, or only to the most recent one? Will Apra still be called "Matriarch" after Kakara becomes a ruling Lady?
All previous Lords or Ladies. Apra would still be Matriarch.
Just to be clear, that's the outcome of a vote in which four people voted "no" and six people voted "yes, I have a problem" but couldn't coordinate on a plan?

Because while I'm prepared to acknowledge that "you don't suggest a different plan" is an accurate reflection of the vote for purposes of character action...

"You have no problems with the plan" is very much NOT an accurate representation of the vote for purposes of character attitudes. "You are troubled" or "you have vague misgivings" or "you're not sure how to do things any better and don't know who to ask for help or advice" would all be much more accurate.

The vote was on "do you oppose the plan" not on "do you have a problem with the plan Y/N" I am extremely confident you've had the experience of being troubled about a plan or thinking something was wrong with it, without having a better idea or without being sure which idea would be an improvement

And yes, I'm taking you literally, on the "absolutely no problem" interpretation. Because without the "discussion informs character attitudes," card in play... Well, QM interpretation of votes is the only way for the questgoers to have any affect on the character's opinions. Having the QM overbroadly interpret a plurality vote of "no, I will not oppose the existing plan" to mean "the character is happy with the situation and has no problems with the plan" is... kind of a problem in that case and should be noticed by the players.
Simon, you know you shouldn't make a habit of taking me literally outside of threadmarked posts. :lol That was me cracking a joke about how people couldn't resolve their differences on a split vote even with approval voting in effect.

That being said, Kakara having problems with the Unsealing plan at this stage has absolutely nothing to do with the breakdown of the vote. I was very clear when I announced the change in how I was determining character motivation: I did not want to reward the people who spent months and months sniping at me over the topic, and my solution was to take the players' hands off of the steering wheel completely. QM interpretation of vote breakdowns is not the only way for the questers to have an effect on Kakara's opinions; you all have no affect on her opinions, and won't unless a vote to that effect wins. So: yes, Kakara still has issues with the plan; no, the players' voting habits had absolutely nothing to do with that.

In any event, I'm going to start writing now.
 
Trying to think about how to take out Dandeer without killing her.

The problem is that she's a master at Sealing magic...Maybe link her to Jaron and Jaffur so she feels their pain as her own?

Or, what about Exile? Send her off to wander the Galaxy away from us.
 
Trying to think about how to take out Dandeer without killing her.
...why?
To be blunt, we're between a rock and a hard place. What wins out, our pacifism, or our desire to save Jaron and jaffur? They *will* kill her if they have a chance, and jaffur can most likely match us in power.

...and since we couldn't try to stop the unsealing, we care more about them than her. We may not kill her, we might do our best to stop them from killing her... But unless Dad is sitting next to her, she isn't likely to have anything to stop "Super Sayin just teleported next to me."

...maybe. She did have a large amount of protections that she dropped to frame jaffur. *shrug* We'll see if we get to act or not.
 
Discord Server Link
I keep meaning and forgetting to do this, but somebody recently reminded me:

@gutza1 set up a Discord for my quests (thanks, gutza!). It may interest some people, it may not interest others, and in either case, it exists, right here! Post in the right spot when you show up and I'll give you a shiny tag. :D

For that uninterested group, worry not -- my policy is to copy over transcripts if I mention anything significant on the Discord.

See (some of) you all around! Lemme know if the link goes bad -- it shouldn't, but, internet.
 
...why?
To be blunt, we're between a rock and a hard place. What wins out, our pacifism, or our desire to save Jaron and jaffur? They *will* kill her if they have a chance, and jaffur can most likely match us in power.

...and since we couldn't try to stop the unsealing, we care more about them than her. We may not kill her, we might do our best to stop them from killing her... But unless Dad is sitting next to her, she isn't likely to have anything to stop "Super Sayin just teleported next to me."

...maybe. She did have a large amount of protections that she dropped to frame jaffur. *shrug* We'll see if we get to act or not.
It's not binary. We have Jaffur's respect more than ever before, and he's well aware that we're politically savvy, if nothing else. I fully expect that he would at least consider our words, even if he decided not to listen.
 
Trying to think about how to take out Dandeer without killing her.

The problem is that she's a master at Sealing magic...Maybe link her to Jaron and Jaffur so she feels their pain as her own?
It SHOULD be possible in principle to, well, seal away her magical powers. I know we voted to study magic theory a bit this year, so I don't know, hopefully we can find that information or ask someone who knows?

If we could seal Dazarel's psionics... [shrugs]

Or, what about Exile? Send her off to wander the Galaxy away from us.
Infohazard. Also, waste of a spaceship.
 
Damn it. Thought I posted this, but it turns out it did happen when the cite was down last night. Still the same page though so I don't feel too bad.


  1. It will play into her narrative of Jaffur being homicidally insane if he just kills her/has her killed. Even if she's killed and her faction disbanded, that's still a political albatross hanging around his neck he doesn't need.
  2. It's a waste of a Master Sorcerer - better to have her banished to a shack in the middle of nowhere to live like a hermit and maybe research something useful/have a Master Sorcerer on call who is very aware that she doesn't have the option of refusing any requests/orders.
  3. (Not to be made to Jaffur directly) Dandeer is an evil monster, but I think it'll fuck Jaffur up even further if he kills her and has to live with that. Better to just have her out of sight and mind for the rest of his life - she doesn't deserve to have the effect on him her execution will likely have.

  1. Her narrative is already worthless. She lied about the core fact that let her push that story, and Jaffur would certainly be justifiably angry by Exile standards.
  2. No contest, except for the headache in actually keeping her imprisoned. I've got a gut feeling it might require removing limbs.
  3. While there might be some trauma from killing her, it could easily be outweighed by killing off the source of his suffering. The mind is a strange thing, so it could really go either way.
 
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Damn it. Thought I posted this, but it turns out it did happen when the cite was down last night. Still the same page though so I don't feel too bad.




  1. Her narrative is already worthless. She lied about the core fact that let her push that story, and Jaffur would certainly be justifiably angry by Exile standards.
  2. No contest, except for the headache in actually keeping her imprisoned. I've got a gut feeling it might require removing limbs.
  3. While there might be some trauma from killing her, it could easily be outweighed by killing off the source of his suffering. The mind is a
I think the site may have truncated your post.

Alright, putting on the finishing touches to my post. Brace for impact; I think it'll be up in less than two hours.
 
Yes, but Dandeer doesn't have anywhere near Dazarel's power level. The reason we needed Spirit Saiyan was to physically subdue the dragon and lock him down so that the sorcerors could use the tremendous well of Spirit Saiyan power to put seals on him.

Here, we'd probably be able to get by with just using the royals as power supplies the way we used our Spirit Saiyan boost before, and with a smaller number of sorcerors instead of the thousand-plus who sealed Dazarel.

Now, it might be that this strategy can't work (say, because Dandeer's so good with seals that she can pick any lock we put on her powers). But I very much doubt we'd need Spirit Saiyan to implement it if it can work at all.
 
I doubt she'd be harder to depower than Dazarel. Although we'd want to check with an expert in magic theory- say, Dandelor.

He wasn't a master of the art that was used to seal him though, and wasn't willing to do a suicide move. Dandeer might be far enough gone by this that she would be willing to pull a suicide move (new-SSJ boosted magic suicide attack maybe).

Yes, but Dandeer doesn't have anywhere near Dazarel's power level. The reason we needed Spirit Saiyan was to physically subdue the dragon and lock him down so that the sorcerors could use the tremendous well of Spirit Saiyan power to put seals on him.

Here, we'd probably be able to get by with just using the royals as power supplies the way we used our Spirit Saiyan boost before, and with a smaller number of sorcerors instead of the thousand-plus who sealed Dazarel.

Now, it might be that this strategy can't work (say, because Dandeer's so good with seals that she can pick any lock we put on her powers). But I very much doubt we'd need Spirit Saiyan to implement it if it can work at all.

Eh, it might be that we need Spirit Saiyan to fuel it if it can be done at all. I think it's fair to assume that for any Seal she's put under the more magic backing it up, the longer it will last. It might be that a Seal powered by just the Royals won't be strong enough, or maybe last long enough to really work right.
 
I think you are underestimating how hard it would be to hold her down... if she was resisting.

Might as well try for a diplomacy check to lock her into her masque, like she did her husband. Let her have a happy life with him~
 
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