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Dragon Ball: After the End

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In this fight we had spectators briefly at the start, in particular a single prominent Yamcha stylist who, for the sake of showing the flag, commented at some length into a dictaphone about how fast everyone was and how he couldn't follow our attacks. Saying that when one of the royals fights is considered a traditional show of respect to the Ancestors among Yamcha Style practitioners. :p

Then they all ran away.

Then the Senzus showed up and we had spectators commenting on how powerful we and our opponents were. Until Yammar got sick of hearing them yammer, and beat them all unconscious in like a millisecond.

The end.
 
Simon_Jester said:
In this fight we had spectators briefly at the start, in particular a single prominent Yamcha stylist who, for the sake of showing the flag, commented at some length into a dictaphone about how fast everyone was and how he couldn't follow our attacks. Saying that when one of the royals fights is considered a traditional show of respect to the Ancestors among Yamcha Style practitioners. :p

Then they all ran away.

Then the Senzus showed up and we had spectators commenting on how powerful we and our opponents were. Until Yammar got sick of hearing them yammer, and beat them all unconscious in like a millisecond.

The end.
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Our tournament fight probably had a few spectators commenting; Dazazel would as well, but that would mostly be about the other GOs since when we entered it ceased to be a fight. Sealing had few to no witnesses, vs the aliens didn't really have anyone qualified but a saiyan at a distance probably could have easily kept track with good ki sensing.
 
QTesseract said:
Dazazel would as well, but that would mostly be about the other GOs since when we entered it ceased to be a fight.
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Well no, we were going at it hammer and tongs along with the other royals for a while there.And in that fight, the job of 'outgunned sidelines commentator' was handed over to Maya; the squad of Yamcha and Krillin stylists who had drawn straws for the honor took one look at her, nodded quietly and said "she's got this, let's go home, guys."
 
Fights are so much quicker in this quest then the ever were in the manga or anime. You generally get the impression there that ki increases denfense far more than attack.
 
I get the feeling Poptart resolves fights more with an eye to realistic hand-to-hand combat, which seldom lasts THAT often before someone manages to land a disabling blow. And less with an eye to the conventions of Dragonball, where Goku and Frieza can throw hundreds of punches and hit each other dozens and dozens of times over the course of several episodes before either of them actually goes down.

...

Although sometimes it's clear that several rounds of combat are taking place between updates even when updates cover a short span of time (e.g. I'm pretty sure there was a LOT going on between the previous update and the one before it, including Yammar taking down Apra and an extended 1-on-1, later 1-on-2 fight involving Jaffur, all in the time required for Kakara to eat a senzu bean and recover lucidity.

Similarly there were probably (?) multiple combat rounds in play when Kakara attacked Yammar; from the description of the action it's virtually inevitable.
 
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Message In A Bottle
  • Threadmarks
    • [X] Take a Senzu bean and hold another Senzu bean in our mouth or cheek.
    - [X] Telepathicly transmit the memories of Dandeer's slaughter of the Vegetan sorceres to Yammar.
    - [X] IT over to Dandeer and use her as a shield/flail.
    We were going to break for a vote...but thanks to Yammar's traits and the situation you were in, all paths lead to you, engaged in direct combat with him. I do not believe in offering votes where all paths lead to the same place.

    Message In A Bottle
    ​
    You take a deep, labored breath, and slowly extract a Senzu from your pouch. Okay, two left. You crunch down on it and feel it healing you. Then you slip another from your pouch, storing it in your cheek just in case. Taking a page out of Vegeta's book, you keep your power level low. You need to disable Yammar; you can't fight him one-on-one.

    And as luck would have it, you know just the magic spell capable of incapacitating people.

    You form a telepathic probe with the ease formed of long experience and shove memories of slaughter through it. Dandeer, murdering sorcerers. Dandeer, tormenting Dandelor. Dandeer, getting away with it all. Dandeer, benefiting from her mass murder for years.

    You shove the vision away with both hands; you don't trust it. With Sensei Carrick subverted, you can't possibly trust anything to do with the Sight right now.

    Then you raise your fingers to your forehead, and IT to Dandeer, reaching out to-

    incoming

    It's not even ki sense that prompts you to duck; it's a flash of bone-deep awareness of peril that reminds you of your premonition and sends you diving for the ground. Then your ki senses warn you of Yammar's ki pulsing and flaring in a fired blast in a single instant, and a thin beam tears through the space overhead.

    "Good reflexes," he remarks, completely untroubled. "Let's put them to the test." He fires again.

    You hurl yourself to the side, wide-eyed. He should be down! He should at least be disoriented! How the heck is he up and moving?!

    Yammar darts forward towards you, trying to close, and you leap back, wide-eyed. "How are you standing?!"

    He gives you a confused look. "What are you talking about?"

    tsew

    You hurriedly block his strike and kick out to force him back, drifting up into the air and drawing back your hands. "Kamehame- whoa!"

    You roll backwards to evade Yammar and have to let the technique go as he charges. Even so, he kicks you in the forehead, dazing you. Unintentionally, your teeth snap closed on your stored Senzu bean, restoring you in an instant. Yammar frowns at the apparent lack of effect. "Did you not learn from the first time?" He lunges down, trying to hammer you into the floor.

    You gasp, rolling aside, and fire up your aura to drag your power level back to maximum. "I'm not going to lose to you!" you yell.

    "You already have," he replies, lowering down the the ground. "You lost the moment you chose this fight. Any one of us could defeat you. Certainly, you've defeated your father in sparring conditions. Everybody wins some of the time, in a spar. But combat -- real combat -- requires something which you will never possess!" He points at you. "You may have gathered our people's acclaim, but you are still weak! They worship you because they don't know better; because you are a demigod, as far above them as they are above humans. But you do not stand above everybody else. You occupy the same plane as your fellow nobles, and we have trained. You want to serve our people? Too bad!" His fingers curl into a fist, and he scowls at you. "You are not. Strong. Enough."

    You open your mouth to respond...until a thready voice from your left cuts you off.

    "Stronger...than you."

    Your and Yammar's head snap over, to see Jaron pulling himself to his feet.

    He looks exhausted. Whatever injuries Jaffur has suffered, it looks like they had at least some effect on Jaron. He weaves on his feet, and his breath comes harshly. But he stands, and he glares at Yammar as he does with an unwavering gaze.

    The Patriarch turns, setting his stance. "Sit back down, boy. You are even less ready for this battlefield than she is."

    "She is stronger than you," your friend growls, stumbling forward a step.

    "You're being ridiculous," scoffs Yammar, palming a blast. "Sit down or be put down!"

    Jaron snarls, snapping his hand across at chest level and unleashing a titanic ki blast. It completely engulfs Yammar, but when the smoke clears, he stands unharmed. "So, you have Jaffur's power," he says, shifting his weight forward. "It will not be enough. This is your last warning. Step aside."

    "I won't go back to living in her house!" snaps Jaron, pointing to his mother's crumpled form in the distance.

    Yammar stills. "So be it." He palms another blast and levels it.

    You tense, preparing to dart forward to intercept-

    -his arm swivels to face you in response-

    tsew

    You feel a weight at your back, pressing at your shoulder and the back of your neck and digging in like booted feet driving you to the ground beneath you before you can react-

    -you sprawl and desperately look up as your premonition comes true, just in time to see Jaron take the blast straight to the chest.

    You hear Yammar cursing as his grandson goes sprawling, knocked cold. You frantically ping, and only barely relax when you feel that he's still alive.

    "Brave, boy," sighs Yammar. "But you should have sat down."

    Your breath rasps in your ears, and your vision narrows to a tight tunnel centered on your friend's body.

    "Listen, Kakara," sighs Yammar, stepping closer, "I admire your determination. But you need to learn that determination alone isn't enough. You are incredibly smart; you need to learn that there's no clever plan that will let you avoid getting better at fighting. You won't always have allies; you won't always get the chance to execute some masterstroke that leaves your opponent alone and isolated. You will never be able to guarantee that your opponent will be so outmatched that you never need to fight. At the end of the day, you are a Scion. For all of your plans, at the end of the day, your best chess piece must be yourself."

    You raise your head, everything crystallizing to a point. I can't beat him.

    He extends his hand, ki glowing in his palm. "Just make this easier; stay down. This fight is already over." The light pulses and flares.

    As it does, your eyes slide over to the side. I need to get to Dandeer.
    Cookie used; power level boosted by 10%.
    Yammar's blast flares one more time and launches.

    vip

    Your fingers close around Dandeer's ankle even as you hear him roaring in frustration behind you. You swivel on a heel and swing her in a wide arc between you and him. He jerks his arm to the side, the blast there sputtering out.

    You let her drop, breathing harshly. "I don't care what you have to say, Patriarch," you spit. "Look at what you've done with your life! If that's the only way to be a Scion, or a Lady, or a Matriarch, then I never want to be like you! Why would I? Just some washed-up old man buried in regrets he's too much of a coward to face!"

    His eyes widen.

    You sneer. "Yeah, I saw that. Whenever anybody challenges you about what you did, you shut them down hard, but when Jaffur had something to say, you just took it! What, you've murdered children, but lying to your grandson was a step too far?!"

    tsew

    You bend and snatch up Dandeer, swinging her in a sharp, upward arc that makes Yammar break off his enraged charge. He phases back into visibility, eyes glittering in hate.

    "I'm not done talking!" you snap, darting back and dragging the downed sorcerer with you. "You know what, Yammar? Grandma told me! She told me about Gine and Torruffal! I know! So if your line is that you'll be honest with your own family, why don't you tell me all about it?!"

    He flickers in towards you, making a grab for Dandeer. You pulse your power higher than it's ever gone, desperation giving you strength as you twist her aside. "You have no idea what you're asking about, girl," whispers Yammar, sounding somehow more enraged than any shout. "You have no idea what it's like to live with that decision. Do not pretend like you understand because your grandmother told you a love story!"

    "You know what, you're right," you gasp, skidding to a halt. "I don't understand. But if you're trying to tell me that I need to become just like you, then you owe me an explanation so that I do! So talk! Tell me what it's like! Or do you just want to see it happen again, and again, and again, all because of-!"

    "THEY MURDERED MY FATHER!" he screams, finally snapping. "Do you understand that?! Do you have the slightest idea, what kind of pain that is? What kind of loss? Do you remember what you felt, when you thought Jaffur had killed your father?"

    You flinch away from the memory of screaming anguish and golden light, eyes closing for a moment.

    "And there it is!" he snaps, leveling a finger at you. "You know that if you'd been able, you would have done the same as me! Because that is an injury that never heals! Nothing will ever set it right. Nothing will heal the wound! The world will always be a shade darker. Behind every taste, the tinge of ash. And in the moment, there's a void of such pure black that you'd feed the world to it in order to make it stop!" He takes a deep, shuddering breath. "And then, the day after, I woke up, and it was still there." His lips twist in a grimace. "After what I did...it was still there. And I knew that no reason could ever be good enough."

    You stare at him, appalled. "Then why do you always refuse to back down on it?"

    "Nothing could ever be good enough reason for it," he repeats. "But if I backed down, it would be for nothing at all. I...did what I did. I won't shy away from that. I will not make it all have been for nothing. I have lived every day of my life knowing that in one day's misery, I doomed my people to decades of living out the consequences. But if I said that I was wrong, then any fear they held for me would turn to hate, and my son would suffer even more for my choices. I made my decision, and the regret for that is mine; I will not compound my failure more than I already have!"

    You stare at him, mixed revulsion and pity cycling through your mind. "...and you want me to become just like you."

    "I want you to be strong!" he snaps. "You and Jaffur should both be strong! You should be strong enough that nobody will dare to force that moment on you!"

    You set your feet. "I think I'll find my own strength."

    He sighs. "I suppose you will."

    You stare at each other for a moment-

    left

    -until you lean to the right, his fist phasing through your afterimage. You swing Dandeer up and follow her arc with a kick. He avoids both before darting back in.

    It's harder than your fight against your father. Yammar hasn't had his speed slashed. He's not taking as much effort to avoid Dandeer. He leans away from killing her, but you hear bones crunch more than once as he blocks your swings. You have to readjust. And Yammar has the benefit of experience, and tempered fury.

    It's easier. You flow from stance to stance more smoothly than you have at any point during this fight, and this burst of strength, born of desperation, keeps you a step ahead of him at all times. And unlike your father, you have qualms at all fighting Yammar. You pity him; that doesn't mean you're going to go easy on him.

    With Dandeer as your advantage, it is an even fight. Not a dance, because Yammar fights with a brutality that puts the lie to any metaphors about combat being beautiful. It's a savage chase as you trade distance and time in the hopes of an opening.

    Until you miss a step.

    You dart back left when you should have hopped back, and Yammar closes in. You swing to ward him off, and he ducks underneath Dandeer's unconscious body to deliver a brutal punch to your side. You lash out with a knee; he catches it and bashes it in at the side with a little crunch. You let out a little scream of pain, and lash out with Dandeer once more.

    At least, you try. Before you even begin the swing, Yammar's hand lashes out and closes around Dandeer's throat. He squeezes and pulls, fetching up against the resistance from your grip. You blink for a moment, stunned at what looks like a certain attempt at killing his charge.

    And then, he swivels in place, landing a final, brutal strike to your shoulder. The joint pops loose with a sickening wave of pain, and you rocket back, losing your grip on the sorcerer. Again, you impact the wall. Your vision swims. Senzu bean...one more Senzu bean... You fumble for your pouch.

    It's gone.

    "Yes, I noticed that this was looking lighter," says Yammar, walking towards you. With difficulty, you focus your vision on him. Sure enough, he's holding your pouch, the string broken.

    When did he get that? you think, blinking heavily.

    He grumbles, stepping in. "It was well fought, Kakara. You never stood a chance...but it was well fought."

    You struggle to raise your hand, ki flickering in your palm as you frame Yammar as best you can with one hand. "Ki...ko..."

    He phases, and the world goes black as the vision you've been fighting off this whole time finally pulls you away.

    * * *

    Gone.

    * * *
    ​
    You gasp, lunging up from the ground. You take stock for a moment. Your injuries are healed.

    "Over here," says a woman's voice from behind you.

    You spin, and then gasp. "Eighteen!"

    She gives you a patient, and somewhat bitter, smile, eyes closed. "Try again."

    You blink, looking her over again. The woman before you, seated in the command chair of some strange space ship -- you can see some strange planet through the window behind her! -- looks exactly as your people's depictions of her say. The differences are in the clothing. Armor in your people's style, an odd, simple silver circlet across her forehead with an inset blue stone, and her...

    ...tail.

    You gape, staring into the face of your older self. She nods. "Not bad." Her eyes finally open, filmed over a blank and milky white. "Seers can't give other people visions, by the way. This one is all you. Sensei Carrick had nothing to do with it."

    You take a step back. "How are you talking to me?"

    She taps her temple and laughs. "Oh, I'm not. Pastsight. Just having a quick look at what you were just about to ask."

    A bolt of dread slashes through your chest. "You mean I've been suppressing-"

    "-me, yes," she replies, settling back in her chair. "Although I'm sure Sensei Carrick would be quite flattered by how sharply upward you estimated his abilities from reality."

    You slump against the wall behind you, numb. "...I could have won..."

    "You really couldn't have," she sighs, shaking her head. "Not by the time the vision started knocking."

    You scowl at her. "And how do you figure that?"

    "By the time you got shot, Jaffur and Grandma were basically out of the fight," she replies. "By the time you woke up, even taking a Senzu as quickly as possible, they were out of the fight. Then it was you against Yammar. You did basically everything right in your last exchange with him, but even so, that old man is terrifying. Personally, I'm not sure there was a path to victory at that point. Maybe, at some far end of the bell curve...well, actually, yes, right there at the end." She smirks at you, and you feel a flicker of envy for her more developed Sight. "Still, it's right at the end. It was a very bad situation. Perhaps we would have been better running."

    "You mean letting Dandeer win," you snap.

    Your double raises an eyebrow at you. "She won anyway."

    You have nothing to say to that.

    Future you rolls her head on her shoulders. "Now, if you'll excuse me, I didn't go to all the effort of making this the most relevant moment for your vision just to run failure analyses with you. I have advice."

    "Wait, you made this the best moment?" you ask. "How? Why?"

    "Because I had a vision about it," she says, her lips twitching.

    You scrunch your eyes shut. "How does that make any sense?!"

    She laughs, quietly. "Just accept that your current understanding of causality doesn't cover it. You'll get there. Now, listen." She leans forward. "You've lost. Thanks to the way you lost, you have very limited options for getting something out of this mess. But it's not over yet. Dandeer, hasn't covered all of her bases. She is a terrifying mage, and overwhelming firepower covers a lot of sins, but when it comes down to it, you've taken her off guard, and she doesn't tend to think well under pressure. She leans on her pawns a lot -- and when she forgets to, she makes mistakes. Our bad luck was that we were never around to catch any of them."

    "She's good enough to get Dad and Yammar," you growl.

    She sighs. "Yammar basically handed himself to her on a silver platter. He came after her the night after the Sealing, and she could easily see that coming. She had a spell set up to trap him. Not enough that he'd suddenly love her or anything, but enough that he'd be passive and ineffective about taking her down, and that if she needed to, she could turn him with a touch."

    "And Dad..." you murmur.

    "She and he spent hundreds of hours together, over the years," says your older self, shrugging. "At some point, she found an opening to exploit. Listen, you didn't lose because of anything she is. Dandeer isn't stupid, but she's not that bright, either. She's powerful, but arrogant. She has powerful assets and abilities, but she always overestimates them, even so. That is your opportunity. She overcomplicates everything. She isn't an idiot, but she wants to feel like a genius. She has to feel like she won. When you come to, she'll gloat. She'll posture. She'll tell you all about her master plan. That's when you can get something done."

    "And what do you think I should do?" you ask.

    "I'd focus on getting the Senzus out," she replies. "I know they didn't put on the best showing today, but they'll become some of your greatest assets when they're not working under the direction of a man who's been stripped of most of his initiative and imagination."

    "What about Betarel?" you blurt out. You blush as she gives you a steady look. "I mean, the vision...but that other...Senzu..."

    Your older self gives you a withering expression. "Try to stay focused. I know that who you marry is an important concern, but you have more immediate concern than teenage hormo-"

    "Jaffur!" you shout, leaning forward. "You're wearing a crown! What happened with Jaffur?"

    A shadow of pain crosses her face. She leans back in her chair, expression smoothing over. "As I see you've guessed, I am Queen now," she says.

    "Did you marry Jaffur?" you ask. "Does that even work? I mean, he's just so-"

    "You do not want to become Queen the way I did!" she snaps, hair flickering gold for a moment.

    You quail at the vast ocean of power that momentarily spills out from her, putting anything you've ever felt to shame. It is more power than you have ever felt from one place -- even from the Genki Dama. And it just...slipped out like that.

    She takes a breath to steady herself. "You do not want that. Set it aside. Pretend you never saw the crown. Now, are you done asking silly questions?"

    You flinch at the acid in her voice and decide to steer well clear of the subject. You nod, folding your hands behind your back.

    She snaps off a nod of her own at you. "Good. Now, I know it's...hard to contemplate. But do not try to rescue Jaffur. Dandeer will never let you have him, and I'm telling you that you're wasting your time. You will achieve nothing. Get the Senzus. If you can, send a message to Maya telling her to head into the mountains around Senzu Hall. They'll pick her up, and she'll avoid what comes next."

    "Next?" you ask.

    "Dandeer has, of course, been working on a massive ritual," she says. "It's brittle, but she has every super saiyan on the planet accounted for, so there's nothing to stop her from casting it now. It's the only way it'd work. It'll make her the perfect world she's always wanted. It will be flawed, of course -- even she's not that good -- but she'll lock down Garenhuld for a long time. Maya is something exceptional. If you get her out to the Senzus, she'll continue growing in power while you're away."

    You step forward. "Wait, what do you mean-?"

    "Maya will be one of your most potent assets in a fight, eventually," she continues, unabated. "I'd love to get the rest of our friends out, and it honestly doesn't cost you to try, but absolutely make certain that Maya does. And once you've sent the message, cut loose. Power up as much as you can and try to break out. Ki trumps magic; the issue is targeting the right spot. The shackles use the concept, "you are sealed to immobility." Power up and focus on moving where they tell you you can't go, and you'll break them before she can adjust. You won't escape, but you're trying to break the Senzus out, not get free yourself-"

    "Stop, stop!" you shout, raising your hands. "What are you talking about, 'while you're away?' Don't treat me like I don't know what I'm doing; I made it this far! Just tell me what you have in mind!"

    She stares at you for a moment before sighing. "Dandeer is going to Seal you. You can stick around and see what it's like to live like Jaffur, or you can get out. You've trained mind projection. Use it. Cast yourself clear of your body and run as far as you can. Get out into the outer galaxy and find some place to anchor yourself. You'll be wandering for a while, but you will be back."

    You shrink backwards. "You're talking about making myself a shade."

    "And, in so doing, finding the tools necessary to survive," she snaps. "By the time you awaken, Dandeer has already Sealed everybody but Yammar. It's too late for you to win on Garenhuld. So do as our ancestors did: fall back, train, and return to fight another day. It will be dangerous, but you have what it takes to survive. Gather allies, get stronger, and learn the secrets our people have forgotten. Only then will you be able to return and put Dandeer where she belongs." She clenches her hand for a moment, knuckles white. "Of course, you could always stay and be Sealed. Maybe you like being helpless. But I doubt it."

    "...you did this, too," you say.

    She nods, lips tight.

    You sigh, and step past her to the window. "How did we lose this badly? I thought we were doing well."

    "We were looking in the wrong places," she says. "She's not a master schemer, but she doesn't to be when we're just...not there. We never looked at her side of the board, and she had access to a lot of ours." She spins the chair around. "If it's any consolation, the things we've achieved over the years will someday pay off. If I've learned one thing, it's that nothing in this world lacks consequences. The universe is unpredictable, and even things that look like a disaster can lead to redoubled gains later." She pauses. "I've also learned how to tell when a vision is about to end."

    You sigh, looking out the window. "And now you want me to go throw myself out of my head while Dandeer walks my body around like a puppet."

    She doesn't respond to that; to be honest, you weren't looking for a response.

    "I'll think about it," you say, pushing away from the window.

    "So this is what it's like to try and give me orders," she says, leaning on a hand. "I feel sorry for...well, lots of people."

    You scrunch up your face at her. "Yeah, well you'd be angry too, if somebody was telling you to do all of this."

    "Of course," she replies. "But I like to think that I'd do it."

    You shrug. "Any last advice?"

    "You're going to lose people over the next few years," she says, face softening. "People you love. Don't let it destroy you. Yammar should be lesson enough. You're going to find a lot of situations where you think you've lost. Don't give up. There's always a way out." She pauses for a moment and then shuts her eyes again. "Find a better way than I did."

    "I don't know what way you took," you said, spreading your arms in a hopeless gesture.

    "You'll find out," she says, nodding with certainty as her eyes open.

    You feel the thin edge of tiredness that signals a vision ending. "Looks like I'm going home."

    "Good luck," she says. "You'll need it, and skill, too." She smiles. "Good thing is -- and I know it doesn't feel like it right now -- we've got plenty of both."

    "You're right," you say. "It doesn't."

    "Fight that feeling," she says. "That's Dandeer winning, and it's wrong."

    You see mists encroaching at the edges of your vision as your presence in the vision wavers.

    She smiles as she begins to fade from view. "Oh, and, one last thing -- you'll need to make a choice in a few minutes, when you've saved everybody you can and it's time to run. It'll come up a few times after that. Just remember, when it does.."

    * * *

    Back.

    * * *
    ​
    Your eyes open to the restoring sensation of Senzu healing, and you look up into Dandeer's eyes. Sensei Carrick and Lord Vegeta flank her, staring straight ahead. On Dandeer's shoulder, Dazarel lounges, looking at you with a smug look on his face. Your father, Jaffur, and Grandma mill around in the background, the unsettling echoes of sorcery in their auras. Yammar is chained at your side; the Senzus are huddled in a heap off to the side, evidently not even worth the effort of restraints apart from Dandelor.

    Dandeer kneels in front of you with a triumphant smile. "Hello there, Kakara."

    You stare back at her, and the last words of your older self echo in your mind.

    "...there are no wrong choices."


    You have lost. But thanks to that vision to which you finally succumbed, you have a chance to escape and get stronger before returning, and get some of your friends and allies out in the process, should you choose to abide by it.

    What do you do, in the next few moments?

    [ ] Stick to the plan. Send messages to as many friends as you can to get into the Senzus' mountains, free the Senzus, and then cast yourself free. You will be back, they'll carry on the fight in your absence, and when you return, Dandeer will pay, once and for all.
    [ ] Alter the plan. Due to overwhelming opposition, pick only one of the following:
    -[ ] You know that she said not to, but frankly, you need to try. See if you can't snap Jaffur out of his fugue like you did back at Hall Senzu. Do this instead of freeing the Senzus, because you are well aware that you can't do both, with these odds.
    -[ ] See if you can break out Yammar. Do this instead of freeing the Senzus, because you are well aware that you can't do both, with these odds.
    [ ] Hang the plan. You don't follow orders. Break free, wreak havoc, and go as far as you can in a last-ditch effort to win, and take it all, rather than simply mitigate a loss. You'll show future-you, with her having lived this exact chain of events, and her epic-tier Seer abilities, and her lifetime of experience, and her galaxy-shattering levels of power that you sensed when she got mad, and-
    [ ] Write-in?

    MANUAL MORATORIUM. APPROVAL VOTING.

    I understand that this update will cause some people to produce copious amounts of salt. That's a perfectly comprehensible reaction to what is, incontestably, a very major loss. However, we are nevertheless on a forum that values civility in its discourse. Let's honor the spirit of the platform in our reactions to this update. In particular: refrain from the, "I-told-you-so's." They don't help you convince anybody to listen to you in the future; they just piss off everybody at whom they're pointed, and entrench future opposition. If we must salt, at least let us not self-sabotage in the process. :lol:

    I hope you all enjoy this update. I know it's a turbulent one, but as the vision said, it's not even close to over yet. Were mistakes made? Yes. But we'll learn from them, and given time, I'm confident that you all will find a path to ultimate victory.

    One more thing, just to have some mercy: What happened with Yammar? Well, he was under a mind control spell, and as some of you correctly guessed, that spell worked by constantly and persistently removing from his mind any reasons why he should disobey Dandeer. Her mass slaughter of the Vegetan sorcerers most certainly met that criterion. Trying to disable him in this manner was a clever plan of exploiting Dandeer's grand ritual to ultimately defeat her plans; unfortunately, it simply ran afoul of another spell she had active on the same target. Even then, you managed to get to and use Dandeer, and you took Yammar right to the edge by exploiting that strategy. Ultimately, his superior skill won the day, but you held him off for far longer than he -- and even I -- was expecting.

    Now, as per usual, I'll distance myself from the thread for a bit, although if I see that the reaction is more measured than it has historically been, I'll return. Have fun discussing, folks. This one's not over by a long shot.


    What then ensued was the worst meltdown in the thread's history. For pages on end, the thread went into a death spiral, turning utterly toxic. The whole mess culminated in a days-long threadlock followed by the single largest staff action I've ever seen that didn't involve glassing a thread from orbit entirely. After it reopened, there were one or two additional actions doled out to prevent another flare-up.

    As a direct result of that calamity, the quest is now on hiatus pending a mechanics rework, as you will be able to glean from the next few threadmarks. I'll be working through the overhaul in the thread itself, and soliciting player feedback throughout. If you're just joining in, I'm sorry you have to enter during such a stressful time. Please feel free to join the discussion regarding the rework, and rest assured that this quest will continue. I look forward to seeing you around the thread.

    Annoyingly, once things settled, people settled on just wanting the current iteration of the rules made public. It already was available for the asking, but apparently I'm intimidating. I didn't expect the scale of the rework to actually justify the scale of the meltdown, but it's a bit depressing that a salt-fest of such epic scale led to a change this small    .

    In retrospect, I made two mistakes, writing this update. My biggest mistake was in forgetting to mention why I chose not to break this update at the point where Kakara got her hands on Dandeer. The spoiler box up top was added afterwards; it should have been up there to begin with. Originally, I had resolved to break for a vote. Unfortunately, once I got there, I realized that it was mathematically impossible for Kakara to escape the fight, under the mechanics. Given that I have a strong conviction that I should never offer trap votes (where all choices lead to the same outcome, in this case Kakara engaged in combat with Yammar), I elected to just keep writing, and make my honest best effort at having her win. I should have explained that in the original author's notes; I don't remember why I didn't. Past is past, but my did it cause a lot of grief in this instance.

    The second mistake was in my original handling of the vision from future!Kakara. Originally, she went hard on calling Dandeer stupid. Stupid this, imbecile that, countless insults thrown on Dandeer's capabilities. This was an example of unreliable narrator; future!Kakara does not like Dandeer, and hesitates to think well of her. So she tried to grind in the idea that Dandeer is an idiot, which is...really only true by relation to Kakara herself, who is a borderline genius. Namely, it's not true. Dandeer's no great thinker, but she has her moments. Neither Kakara is terribly well equipped to realize this, and in an ideal world, I could have showcased that, but...coming off of the thread's largest loss to date, I should not have then had a character seemingly grind their faces into the idea that they'd lost to an incompetent. Wasn't a good idea. Was not good QMing. The new version of the conversation, while in my opinion less true to future!Kakara's character, is probably a better overall way of handling it.
     
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  • Threadmarks
    • I'm out.
    This particular arc has stretched on long enough that it isn't interesting anymore.

    Then again, I was never really active in-thread and nobody has any reason to care about whether I'm here or not :p
     
    Staff Notice - This is detrimental to the tone of the thread and violates Rule 4
    What a surprise.

    And it keeps hammering in that Dandeer is an idiot, which makes the players and literally everyone else in the universe dumber still for being outplayed by her at every turn.

    So, yeah, no surprise that everything loses, because the heroes are just too skull splitting stupid to win even against a twelve year old.

    At least I know for sure to write this quest off for well written trash now.
     
    Honestly seriously considering plan 2 here, not going to lie. Following advice from your future self in a stable timeloop is just a terrible idea, because that becomes the only reason you did the action in the first place

    While Kakara is smart, I'm very skeptical that Future!Kakara had the best solution, especially since she's been trying to ping us since before this fight was over.

    At minimum, I'm going to be voting to alter it; probably jaffur in that case, but I guess I could be swayed to Yammar too?
     
    Wwwwwelp.

    Think we lost that fight the moment we didn't gank Vegeta. It would've been a 2v1 w/ an active Dandelor, but instead it's total defeat as Yammar rips through everyone and we don't get any reinforcements.
     
    ..You know this thing does seem super Dragon Ball-y. Like, losing to a villain which in turn means you'll have to run away and train until you're strong enough to return and beat them is pretty much the plot of every single Dragon Ball arc.
     
    Bommelom said:
    ..You know this thing does seem super Dragon Ball-y. Like, losing to a villain which in turn means you'll have to run away and train until you're strong enough to return and beat them is pretty much the plot of every single Dragon Ball arc.
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    It's also like that time when the hero was all but defeated by the villain only to bust out a massive power-up out of his ass and win.
     
    Alectai said:
    What a surprise.

    And it keeps hammering in that Dandeer is an idiot, which makes the players and literally everyone else in the universe dumber still for being outplayed by her at every turn.
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    Frankly, this.

    In my case, I had a specifically different plan for what to do after we grabbed Dandeer. One that my understanding was, that if we just grabbed Dandeer, we would have a chance to use it.

    Instead, we wound up in a fistfight with Yammar. The ONE THING I had specifically hoped we would get a vote on whether to do, because I didn't want to do that. I wanted to try to disengage.

    We didn't. I must have badly misunderstood this post.

    Now, I understand that we may have been literally unable to disengage from Yammar due to his greater skill in combat. I could accept that. But as far as I can tell, we didn't even get to vote on whether or not to try. We just skipped straight ahead to us getting sucked into an irresistible vision and then knocked out and tied up by the bad gal.

    ...

    And that... well, let us just say that comes down to the same kind of questions about how the quest is run and how player agency works.

    Bluntly, @PoptartProdigy , while there may be some valid explanation for why this wasn't railroading, right now I feel railroaded and would appreciate some acknowledgement of why I feel this way.

    ...

    Last time, we didn't get a chance to discuss the "confront Dandeer with all six royals, but with no other preparation" strategy. And I could buy this as not-railroading, because it was compatible with the plan we'd expressed

    But THIS time, we didn't get a chance to discuss "so, now that we have Dandeer as a hostage, what's our best move?" And after I personally tried to ask the QM whether we'd get a chance to make that choice. And I sure thought we'd get a chance to make that choice. Otherwise, I'd have agitated for a plan that ended with us grabbing Dandeer and THEN getting to vote on what Kakara tried next. Instead of, y'know, just defaulting to "fistfight with Yammar, interrupted by conversations we did NOT exploit as an opportunity to disengage, until we lost the fight."

    So basically, I feel railroaded, because of all the strategies for what we could do once we had Dandeer, using her in an attempt to win a hand-to-hand fight with Yammar was arguably the worst. And I thought we'd get a chance to vote on whether to pursue that strategy... and we didn't.

    Just like I thought we'd get a chance to vote on exactly what approach to take in confronting Dandeer personally... and we didn't.

    And it's lovely and dramatic and would make a great episode of Dragonball, what with it having all sorts of artistic themes and being masterfully executed by the artist.

    But as a quest update it leaves ashes in my mouth, because it feels like player agency has taken a vacation while Dramatic Plot gets to drive things forwards.

    I mean, after the last time this happened Poptart did something very commendable, which was to break up the action so that players actually got a chance to vote on what to do in order to avert disaster, rather than having the disaster unfold uncontrollably.

    ...

    And maybe behind the scenes we never got a chance to do this because Yammar won his "keep up the pressure" roll, to the point where we never had a chance to IT out or heal-beam Jaffur or anything else we discussed.

    Or maybe Poptart interpreted the vote as "once you grab Dandeer, go back into hand to hand with Yammar." And so, again, we never got a chance to IT out or heal-beam Jaffur or anything else we discussed.

    ...

    Either way, I feel railroaded.

    I am very unhappy about this.

    Now, I'm going to be on very limited Internet activity for the next few days.

    But I would very much like to see this addressed somehow, and not just shrugged off. Because right now I can't tell if I'm following Poptart's Dragonball Quest or Poptart's Occasionally Interactive When They Feel Like It Dragonball Fanfic.

    I'd be actively participating in that quest. I might even be following that fanfic.

    But it's a massive waste of my time for me to participate in the latter, including long, extensive participation in debate over what to do, under the delusion that it is the former.
     
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    Andres110 said:
    I think it's time for Super Saiyan 2.
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    You know, that... might not be the worst decision in the world. The enemy either can't or won't singularly focus on defeating us, since he hasn't. Whether that's because he has to watch out for Beerus / Whis / Golden Freeza, or because that's not the goal, or something else, I have no idea, but they clearly aren't working their way from planet to planet hunting down the remnant. Buu is also stronger than SS2, and he hasn't been kicked off by any faction, so power isn't the only factor. SS2 isn't a good option, but it might well be a better one.

    I wouldn't be overly opposed to trying an instant transmission out now, or to pulling something clever. All I can think f is ultimate FPSSJ -> Blast dandeer and force sacrifices to stop, but that breaks a lot of traits and isn't really a good option *either*.
    Bommelom said:
    ..You know this thing does seem super Dragon Ball-y. Like, losing to a villain which in turn means you'll have to run away and train until you're strong enough to return and beat them is pretty much the plot of every single Dragon Ball arc.
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    To my knowledge, that's pretty much only Piccolo SR. and Taopaipai. If you count non Goku charachters there's also the androids and Goku Black I guess, maybe buu if you count what happened with Gohan, but it's very much not the norm.
     
    This loss is of our own making. We had every opportunity in the leadup to those to make something different happen.

    We could have done any or all of the following before the confrontation:
    • Multiformed and:
      • Went Golden Monkey with one
      • Went normal full power with another
      • Used Spirit Saiyan to get a third full power with another
    • Attempted to convince Berra to chill out for a moment before he engaged, and instead of confronting Dandeer, just knock her out and let Dandelor undo all of her spells
    • Gotten the other clan heirs in on it a week (or however long) beforehand
    And I am sure many other things.

    Poptart runs this system brutally straight, and I respect them greatly for that. I am tired of seeing people complain about that when they have always been straightforward about that. I mean, their description under their username is "Lawful Evil".
     
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