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[ ] "Dandeer shut the fuck up, I'm trying to think."
-[ ] "Also, neither your husband or your sons will ever truly love you"
--[ ] "Anyway bye"
--[ ] Engage the plan.

Not letting her get the last word, that's just undignified.
 
So there's a bit to sift through with future Kakara but the one thing I think is most important in our current situation is whether to trust when she said "there are no wrong choices".
 
How does the whole shade thing even work.
Does our body just stay here atrophying?

It seems like a terrible option honestly.
 
Violation of Rule 4 - The way this is phrased is very detrimental to the tone of the thread discussion
Can I just reiterate my desire to leave?

Cause I really want to leave?

What has ever been here for Kakara? Responsibility she didn't ask for, judgemental ass-holes, uncomfortable veneration, the inability to do her own thing, the sins of the past constantly coming back to **** her over.

As far as I can see there were only three things keeping her on this scrap heap, her family, her friends and Jaffur, all three of which are about to be taken away so I say fuck this shit hole.

Lets leave.

Lets go find King Kai, learn interesting techniques, find a better seeing teacher, go to hell, shit if Freeza's down there lets go say hi, maybe he can teach us something.

Lets find the goddamned Namkekians and the dragon balls and wish Dandeer into a bloody fruit assortment.

This is a chance to finally be free of all these assholes and sins of the past!

@PoptartProdigy I'll be blunt I hated this entire arc knowing that it was going to end like this, I knew from the second Dandeer stick her fingers on Yammar and in effect rammed her hand up his backside to use as a puppet, you may deny this and yeah we might have been able to swing it around, but I have been resigned to it for a very long time now, but if this ends with us leaving this place, I'm perfectly fine with that.

When has it ever done anything for Kakara? When has it not been Kakara doing things for it?
 
Actually, I'm gong to stop salting around and ask the question I want to ask.

@PoptartProdigy how much time are we looking at IRL before confronting Dandeer again? Because if it's more than a year, I tap out.
 
B) Be a ghost, do nothing for several years but vote to train while everyone we love dies forever and theres no way to stop it
Wait, where do you get the idea that everyone we loves dies forever if we turn into a shade? Future Kakara mentioned we'd lose people, yeah, but given Dandelor's goal is apparently to mind control everyone to create a perfect world (which fits all her actions, except, again, murdering sorcerers), so to me it sounded more like that we're going to lose people we love to the challenges that come after Dandeer (just as we could have lost Berra or Apra to Dazarel, for isntance), not that Dandelor's reign is going to kill anyone.
 
Does our body just stay here atrophying?
Who knows, who cares, we'll pass that bridge when we get there as plans obviously don't work.

(Probably not since future us seems ok, but still.)

Perhaps a more pressing question is whether or not we can increase our power level while in shade form so we can get more of our power.
 
Can I just reiterate my desire to leave?

Cause I really want to leave?

What has ever been here for Kakara? Responsibility she didn't ask for, judgemental ass-holes, uncomfortable veneration, the inability to do her own thing, the sins of the past constantly coming back to **** her over.

As far as I can see there were only three things keeping her on this scrap heap, her family, her friends and Jaffur, all three of which are about to be taken away so I say fuck this shit hole.

Lets leave.

Lets go find King Kai, learn interesting techniques, find a better seeing teacher, go to hell, shit if Freeza's down there lets go say hi, maybe he can teach us something.

Lets find the goddamned Namkekians and the dragon balls and wish Dandeer into a bloody fruit assortment.

This is a chance to finally be free of all these assholes and sins of the past!

@PoptartProdigy I'll be blunt I hated this entire arc knowing that it was going to end like this, I knew from the second Dandeer stick her fingers on Yammar and in effect rammed her hand up his backside to use as a puppet, you may deny this and yeah we might have been able to swing it around, but I have been resigned to it for a very long time now, but if this ends with us leaving this place, I'm perfectly fine with that.

When has it ever done anything for Kakara? When has it not been Kakara doing things for it?

Right let's act completely out of character and abandon everyone.

I support going to Namek but the first goal should be to wish our friends and any saiyans not under Dandeer's control off planet.
 
So there's a bit to sift through with future Kakara but the one thing I think is most important in our current situation is whether to trust when she said "there are no wrong choices".

Obviously not. There are wrong choices. Some of them, like "[]Seduce Dandeer to become queen" are clearly and unquestionably wrong, for far more reasons than I care to name. Others, like "[]Use all your saltiness to make Dandeer explode into a pillar of salt" are less obviously wrong, but still clearly wrong. There are even some, like "[] Go blonder than blond and beat everyone up" which seem bad on the surface, are actually bad underneath, but are still one of our best options.

The question isnt "Are there wrong answers?", but "How wrong can an answer be and still work?".
 
Wait, where do you get the idea that everyone we loves dies forever if we turn into a shade? Future Kakara mentioned we'd lose people, yeah, but given Dandelor's goal is apparently to mind control everyone to create a perfect world (which fits all her actions, except, again, murdering sorcerers), so to me it sounded more like that we're going to lose people we love to the challenges that come after Dandeer (just as we could have lost Berra or Apra to Dazarel, for isntance), not that Dandelor's reign is going to kill anyone.
Because Jaron became suicidal, and this is multiple times bigger than what was cast on him.
 
Wait, where do you get the idea that everyone we loves dies forever if we turn into a shade? Future Kakara mentioned we'd lose people, yeah, but given Dandelor's goal is apparently to mind control everyone to create a perfect world (which fits all her actions, except, again, murdering sorcerers), so to me it sounded more like that we're going to lose people we love to the challenges that come after Dandeer (just as we could have lost Berra or Apra to Dazarel, for isntance), not that Dandelor's reign is going to kill anyone.
Dandeer never approved of the Misfits, I think that the first chance she gets she'll have them taken care of
 
Kakara tries to use Dandeer as cover while she heals people? I know for a fact that Yammar's response to that is a wide-area blast, forcing Kakara to break concentration to avoid her shield being vaporized.

Sincere question.

Why is this a 'forced' action? Why not give the players a choice whether or not to do that?

Speaking from an outsider's perspective, this seems like a perfect breakpoint for a QM to let the players solidify their defining trait.

Seriously, either the players vote to protect Dandeer and makes near absolute Kakara's conviction, or they let Dandeer get vaporized and Kakara is forced to experience the full weight of her decisions when she ranks a life as more valuable as another, and let's her enemies die so that her allies may live.

It may well manifest another trait too. Brinksmanship is a terrible game for the other side to experience, and often the only real solution is to not play.

Kakara basically did this when she all but hard countered the Scout's commander's attempt at it.

If we force Yammar to experience the full consequences of playing brinksmanship with someone that really doesn't want to play?

Definitely would be grounds for progress to a trait, if Kakara doesn't outright get one.

Shouldn't this be pretty good material for a QM?

Dandeer actually liked us before she realized that we turned making her miserable into one of the cornerstones of our life.

This is patently false. As the QM said, Kakara hardly interacted with Dandeer. In fact, she even protected her from a growing mob way back then she was exiled from the religion. Kakara wasn't obligated to calm down the mob or anything, but she did.

Before the conspiracy was put into action, the only serious thing Kakara did against her was to get permission to train Jaron from her husband rather than her.

Alright. Let's address some of the things flying around.

First of all: the point championed by @Simon_Jester, that I failed to break the update at the most appropriate time for a vote, despite my prior resolution to do so at that point. To be honest, I sympathize with this a great deal, because I did originally say that. I can understand why some people are angry, even if I don't appreciate how they express that. However, when it came down to it, I ran up against a reason why I couldn't break the update.

The issue was this: the vote was structured as an attempt to use the memory of Dandeer's massacre to disorient Yammar, enabling Kakara to get to Dandeer and use her as leverage. The goal: get to, and use, Dandeer. Vote breaks there. So I wrote out my update, reached that point, and got ready for a vote. Except...I had a moment, while writing the options. What should I even put? Kakara tries to use Dandeer as cover while she heals people? I know for a fact that Yammar's response to that is a wide-area blast, forcing Kakara to break concentration to avoid her shield being vaporized. Have Kakara IT away? Well, the issue is that Yammar's response to Kakara trying that is, again, a wide-angle blast. And the issue with both was, Kakara literally couldn't do it. Without eating a distraction malus, Yammar was too good for Kakara to succeed on level ground like this. He has too many traits; he has too good skills. The hostage actually hindered you more than him, given his willingness to play brinkmanship! So, the issue is to convince Yammar to look away...how? His Deceit is debuffed, sure, but he can sense that there aren't any opponents worth his time in the Hall. It'd be like trying to convince somebody that the unconscious person in their field of view was actually behind them. So what, convince him that Kakara was ITing behind him? The issue there is that his response to that is just to release an area blast, because Yammar likes indiscriminate techniques, meaning that Kakara would need to cover Dandeer to prevent her being incinerated. Try to talk him down? He's not going to negotiate.

So what, have Kakara drop Dandeer? Immediately after a vote about grabbing her? For what reason? Sure, after Kakara tries to disengage and fails it's apparent that the hostage is weighing her down, but until that point there's no IC reason to change course, and following that point, you're in combat where the hostage is useful again.

I tried everything. I'm sure in the wake of this post, I'll have a tidal wave of comments suggesting various things I tried. Go ahead; I'll confirm that I tried them. The issue was, with the situation as it stood, there was no way Kakara did not end up in hand-to-hand with Yammar. So I was faced with the prospect of presenting, functionally, the following vote:

[ ] Engage Yammar in hand-to-hand with Yammar.
[ ] Engage Yammar in hand-to-hand after being knocked off-balance due to your disengage failing.

I do not write trap votes. I do not offer the illusion of choice. If I gave you a vote, we'd end up here anyway, but only after a long voting cycle for the sake of...actually, I have no idea whatsoever. Here's where I address the railroading concerns: do you all seriously think that I enjoy this? Do you think that this response was somehow unpredictable? I knew this was coming! Staring down the choice of continuing the update to its only logical conclusion or offering a blatant trap vote, I already knew that I'd be sitting here, drowning in complaints! This isn't fun! It's not engaging. I'm not sitting here, cackling maniacally from the comfort of my supervillain fortress about how I've diabolically trapped a group of absolute strangers into a pointless situation. What is even the point of railroading supposed to be? You're all convinced that I'm doing it; maybe you can tell me what I'm supposed to get out of it! I don't get it! I get the most kicks out of the bizarre ways you all surprise me! The first Dandeer-flail was my favorite update in the past three months! And I knew, looking at the choice I had, that no matter what, I'd have people accusing me of railroading!

The fact of the matter is: I do not offer trap votes. If there is only one plausible outcome for a vote, then I do not break there. That's not the place for a vote. I'm not writing a Persona game here. I'm not going to check in with you every so often just to check and see if you'd like to say, "Yeah," "Sure," or, "Okay." It's pointless, and it's a waste of my time. If you're voting, that means there's a real chance of you affecting the outcome. Now, does that mean every option leads to success? No; that would be a trap vote. If you're seeing a vote on your screen, then the options lead different places. Here, they didn't.

So I went all-in on trying to give Kakara the best possible chance at success. I burned a cookie on a power level boost. Even before we reached the point of no return, I burned another on the roll to unlock Novice Combat Precognition, not that Kakara even knows she has it at this point (it fired twice in the update; you can find them). I went through a long Communication stunt to try and debuff Yammar prior to engaging. You legitimately had a chance. Not much of one, but better than the, "mathematically impossible," of the earlier votes. I played it to the limits of my abilities, desperate to secure a good outcome and avoid having to field these complaints. But that didn't happen. Kakara lost. Yammar was not debuffed enough by the presence of a hostage -- you saw how he eventually got her away from Kakara -- and knocked Kakara out. And I started in on the next thing in the list, hoping against all sanity that it would preempt some of all this.

I understand why people are frustrated that I didn't break for a vote. I truly did mean to. Unfortunately, by the time I got there, I realized that there simply was no vote to be offered. I do not offer you all the illusion of choice. If that was my idea of fun, I'd write a fanfic. I write stories all the time. I do it professionally. I'm not here to write one. I'm here to write a quest, and that means offering the player base meaningful choices. Unfortunately, by the time you were standing in front of Yammar, holding Dandeer, with him under no maluses...there just wasn't a way out. That was the point of no return. That's not where you put a vote.



Next thing: people complaining that Dandeer is a boring villain- of course she's a boring villain, you engage with Yammar more than you do with her!

Every time you've been around Dandeer since the Sealing, you have consistently voted to antagonize or evade her. You do not interact with her; you do not investigate her; you do not ask about her. She's been staying in Clan Vegeta, well away from you, as much as she can, and you've been content to leave her well enough alone. I have a lot of work put into this character. What you've seen from her is a very singular side of her. But you have never given me real opportunity to show anything else about her. It hasn't happened. I can't work with that, because -- contrary to opinion -- this is not a fanfic! If I want to show off a character, I need there to be a situation where the player base goes and interacts with them. Dandeer isn't going to willingly interact with you; it's clear you hate her. And you all have never voted to investigate her Clan, and learn about her. So of course she seems flat. That frustrates me too; I've put a lot of work into her that I'm sure is never going to come to light. I feel like I've wasted my time; and worse, that I will never be able to convince people that the waste was not my doing.



I've also seen people arguing that things like the new vote structure, or -- somehow -- Kakara's pacifism are to blame with this. *sigh* No. The vote structure is not at fault; you worked up a perfectly serviceable plan, a key component went wrong, and the situation became locked down at that point. No, Kakara's pacifism is not to blame; being willing to go lethal wouldn't have helped at all at this stage. You could make an argument that it messed things up earlier, but you rallied from that, and the point where the chance of victory started turning Talt-ish was well after that point. I get that these are many people's pet issues, but they're not the cause of all of your woes, least of all this one.



"God Mode Dandeer."

*long sigh*

Aside from setting it up, Dandeer's barely been in this fight. You took her apart in hand-to-hand and broke her tail. She was completely helpless before you. What took you down was other ki fighters who are better at this than you are.



I understand people's frustration. But this is over the line. I made an explicit appeal for civility and calm, and this is the response. You need to stop. This is too much by any reasonable definition. I sympathize with and understand your frustration, but you nevertheless really need to bring it back in.
 
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Because he think that's the best way to get her out. It's not even about Kakara being a pacifist; she opted to take Dandeer hostage. That means she values Dandeer's continued existence on some level. Yammar's view is that he should exploit that before Kakara's assessment changes.
Odd how Yammar suddenly becomes more competent once he is acting against us. He definitely was not thinking like than when he did a stupid hold on Dandeer to get let her mind control him. I don't know why I am bothering. This quest is done. Maybe it can convert as fanfic, but this isn't a quest. I am not sure that it every was now.

Quite simply @Poptart There was a simple way to get out of this. When Yammar tries to kill Dandeer Kakara is too slow to stop him.
 
Meh, I'll just vote to try to get Jaffur, call up Maya and then bail. Jaffur cause he's been our long term objective and Maya because she's kind of cool/has potential. The rest of this planet is just a bunch of unreliability shaped like people we can never trust again. And I hope we never come back.
 
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Im gonna make as long and as complicated a write in as i have too to get an epiphany and ss2, im not letting this shit go on like this.
 
Right let's act completely out of character and abandon everyone.

We waited for years to try and get Jaffur out, we abandoned him for that long because we couldn't help him then, how is this different?

In any case it seems to be quite within our character at the moment, future us did just this without prompting.
 
Sincere question.

Why is this a 'forced' action? Why not give the players a choice whether or not to do that?

Speaking from an outsider's perspective, this seems like a perfect breakpoint for a QM to let the players solidify their defining trait.

Seriously, either the players vote to protect Dandeer and makes near absolute Kakara's conviction, or they let Dandeer get vaporized and Kakara is forced to experience the full weight of her decisions when she ranks a life as more valuable as another, and let's her enemies die so that her allies may live.

It may well manifest another trait too. Brinksmanship is a terrible game for the other side to experience, and often the only real solution is to not play.

Kakara basically did this when she all but hard countered the Scout's commander's attempt at it.

If we force Yammar to experience the full consequences of playing brinksmanship with someone that really doesn't want to play?

Definitely would be grounds for progress to a trait, if Kakara doesn't outright get one.

Shouldn't this be pretty good material for a QM?



This is patently false. As the QM said, Kakara hardly interacted with Dandeer. In fact, she even protected her from a growing mob way back then she was exiled from the religion. Kakara wasn't obligated to calm down the mob or anything, but she did.

Before the conspiracy was put into action, the only serious thing Kakara did against her was to get permission to train Jaron from her husband rather than her.
Yes, and once we removed that bit of happiness from her life I vaguely remember her deciding that we were now nemesises, which we agreed with since we hated her from the get go. Then we started sniping at each other like only a small child and an adult with the emotional stability of a small child could.
 
Odd how Yammar suddenly becomes more competent once he is acting against us. He definitely was not thinking like than when he did a stupid hold on Dandeer to get let her mind control him. I don't know why I am bothering. This quest is done. Maybe it can convert as fanfic, but this isn't a quest. I am not sure that it every was now.
Now to be fair, the reason for that is Yammar got mind controlled early on to Job against Dandeer, which went away after she applied the full mind control. It's consistent. Really frustrating, but consistent.
 
We waited for years to try and get Jaffur out, we abandoned him for that long because we couldn't help him then, how is this different?

In any case it seems to be quite within our character at the moment, future us did just this without prompting.
Because there wasn't a large chance of him dying in the mean time?
Because there wasn't a way to get him out?
 
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