Dragon Ball: After the End

[PoptartProdigy]

I don't know if I've ever written an omake for this quest as of yet. But, the writing bug has found it's way to me, especially with some topics having been brought up in the Discord. Anyways.

An Ancestral Spar​

You take in a deep breath and allow yourself to calm down. Kais on high. Your nerves are not allowing themselves to steady. And so, you steady them yourself. If there's anything that you'll know for sure after the sheer ordeal, literally going through Hell itself, everything about that was nowhere near as nerve-wracking as this.

And of the many things you had asked for, advice, lessons, simply even a hug from Jiichan, you never in your life thought that you'd get this one. And, oh, is Jaffur going to be incredibly jealous. Honestly, it wasn't even really your idea! And that's the part that has caught you the most off guard.

While Vegeta scoffed at the idea, knowing full well what little there is for someone of his level to gain from you, your name-sake, Son Goku himself, sometimes known as Kakarot to his friends, asked you to spar with him. Certainly, you would never have forgiven yourself had you said no to this.

So, here you stand in the plains of the afterlife, a gentle breeze blowing through the air as you transform, glorious golden light emanating from you until you real it in. Sure, intimidation would never work against Goku, though you're calming your nerves Kakara.

Across from you, Goku bounces from side to side, foot to foot, as he rolls his shoulders and eases up the tension in his body. He then smiles at you, a confident smile, and one that's also reassuring. You and he both know that he's literally a God. To your people, specifically those of the Ancestor Cult, you're a demigod, but this is Son Goku.

He eases himself into his stance, and the two of you lock eyes. Goku's remained in his base form, while you're at full power.

From the side, Jiihan's voice rings out: "Begin!"


Of the memories that you will have in life, this day, regardless of what brought you here, you decide you shall cherish it as much as you are capable.

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Aww! Nice!

Been a while since we've had an omake submission here! Thank you! This one'll be non-canon, as it deals with future events, but it's a lovely piece! Short and sweet.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

I'm doubtful that we'll be able to make it instantaneous to the degree that the USSJ flicker trick would require (since that's like, turn it on mid punch to avoid the speed problem), but I'm picturing more like, we land Thunder Shock Surprise, stunning for a few seconds, then our other bodies go USSJ, ki overdrive, fire kikoho, and then drop both USSJ and overdrive within like five seconds. Not instantaneous, but fast enough to use.

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It'd probably be an Elite Talent, but I think it's a pretty viable possibility, if we're thinking of actually training Overdrive up anyway.

Positioning is obviously really valuable to this style, so Flight and Instant Transmission are shoo-ins. That said, we should probably try to learn the Namekian version of Demon Style at some point - battlefield control is equally valuable. (And as @Koraan points out, Telekinesis is an obvious form of that. Kiai is also cool and maybe relevant?)

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While I agree that battlefield control is valuable, Demon Style accomplishes it by including several ki attacks specifically suited for it. I don't think we can afford to cram any equivalent attacks into Kakara Style. I think taking Tenshinhan's Flight focus and tacking on IT should be enough.

Debuffs are obviously useful, but I think most of the proposed ones can and should be rolled into Hand-to-Hand [Team Fighting]. The non-melee one we have, Solar Flare, is wide-angle - we might want to hack a less friendly-fire-prone version, or learn to seamlessly fight blind. (Which doesn't have to be Ki Sense only - hearing, maybe smell, we have options.)

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I'm not sure what you mean here. If by "debuffs" you mean moves to incapacitate, I don't think the Thunder Shock Surprise is a Hand-to-Hand technique. The Four Witches Technique probably is a Hand-to-Hand buff, and might not be worth including in the final Style - we'll have to evaluate it when we get it.

Finally, finishers. Genki Dama isn't likely to be surpassed in its' "really big bomb" role any time soon, even if we only power it with our own ki. Unfortunately, that makes it kind of hard to hit a grappled target with, unless we're willing to sacrifice a Multiform.
Likewise, I don't know if the Kikohos are our optimal Big Blast set. (If nothing else, I want to see what Jaffur Style has for the role.) I think our main finisher should optimally:
-Hit ludicrously hard. (Can we synthesize a Life/Spirit/Will attack, since now that we have psychic lightning we can do all three individually? Or is Spirit basically the same as Will, or a synthesis of Life, Will, and Mind? We should look into this.)
-Be downscalable enough to not kill anything we'd actually use it on.
-Be precise enough to work on grappled opponents without sacrificing the grappler.
-Possibly be widenable, to work on huge opponents or strong groups?
-Relatedly, we have a whole bunch of buffs we could stack on this in various combinations. USSJ/Golden Great Ape, Overcharge, Ki Refinement, Kaio-Ken, even Willpower Push. Exploit this for strength modulation?

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I'm not sure what you think could be more optimal for "big blasts" than the Kikoho, to be honest. Nothing else is going to pack such a punch.

(Suggested technique/sub-technique research: get fast enough with USSJ transformation to use it for strengthening grapples, integrate our lightning with our hand to hand (and ranged attacks, if practical), train up Telekinesis and maybe Kiai, learn to fight blind, improve/supplement the Solar Flare, and eventually, figure out the finisher described above.
Suggested style research: Tenshinhan, Demon, and Jaffur, in that order. We should also take a look at Krillin at some point, but after Demon I expect to be stuck to visions anyway, and I kind of suspect Jaffur tried to teach Jaron.)

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I think the USSJ's crippling speed deficit is bad enough that unless we can learn to flicker it on and off, even grappling with it just opens you up to being punched in the face 10 times while you try to squeeze.

I son't think Demon Style is worth it for the reasons further above, and I maintain that stealing all of Jaffur's personal moves he's worked very hard on will make him very upset.

Completely unrelated thought... Do you all think there's a chance Dandeer might have decided to train and unlock Super Saiyan? From her point of view she certainly has a "need" for power, and she knows the secret to the full power form (or she can get it easily).

She's unlikely to actually train her skills, but the raw power itself, even just to fuel her spells.. she might want that.

Even worse: if it seems like we're about to win that might count as an "epiphany" for ssj2!

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It's possible, but unlikely. She's hugely invested in her magic, using it for everything, and the reasons sorcerers don't train PL is that sorcery training just takes all of their time. I was worried about her possibly getting more people to go SSJ and control them, until I remembered she's terrified of SSJs because Vegeta beat her.

Even so, many people used it in DB. Including Freeza. So I doubt it useless. We'll need to train it, of course. But it will give us a very versatile skill - support, various debuffs (sandstorm-like vision hindered, for example), restrain, distraction...
By the way, I can't remember if we're checked our ability to use psy-telekinesis.

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I'm totally down for learning TK better - being able to move things without occupying our hands is a big deal. IIRC, if we'd had a higher level of TK we'd have won at the Unsealing - we could have dropped a Senzu into Jaffur's mouth whilst attacking Vegeta.

I don't know if I've ever written an omake for this quest as of yet. But, the writing bug has found it's way to me, especially with some topics having been brought up in the Discord. Anyways.

An Ancestral Spar​

You take in a deep breath and allow yourself to calm down. Kais on high. Your nerves are not allowing themselves to steady. And so, you steady them yourself. If there's anything that you'll know for sure after the sheer ordeal, literally going through Hell itself, everything about that was nowhere near as nerve-wracking as this.

And of the many things you had asked for, advice, lessons, simply even a hug from Jiichan, you never in your life thought that you'd get this one. And, oh, is Jaffur going to be incredibly jealous. Honestly, it wasn't even really your idea! And that's the part that has caught you the most off guard.

While Vegeta scoffed at the idea, knowing full well what little there is for someone of his level to gain from you, your name-sake, Son Goku himself, sometimes known as Kakarot to his friends, asked you to spar with him. Certainly, you would never have forgiven yourself had you said no to this.

So, here you stand in the plains of the afterlife, a gentle breeze blowing through the air as you transform, glorious golden light emanating from you until you real it in. Sure, intimidation would never work against Goku, though you're calming your nerves Kakara.

Across from you, Goku bounces from side to side, foot to foot, as he rolls his shoulders and eases up the tension in his body. He then smiles at you, a confident smile, and one that's also reassuring. You and he both know that he's literally a God. To your people, specifically those of the Ancestor Cult, you're a demigod, but this is Son Goku.

He eases himself into his stance, and the two of you lock eyes. Goku's remained in his base form, while you're at full power.

From the side, Jiihan's voice rings out: "Begin!"


Of the memories that you will have in life, this day, regardless of what brought you here, you decide you shall cherish it as much as you are capable.

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That's really sweet!

 

[HoratioVonBecker]

While I agree that battlefield control is valuable, Demon Style accomplishes it by including several ki attacks specifically suited for it. I don't think we can afford to cram any equivalent attacks into Kakara Style. I think taking Tenshinhan's Flight focus and tacking on IT should be enough.

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I don't think that's how Styles work, when it comes down to it? I think Involved Techniques refer to "the things you default to/attempt to draw the full potential out of". Going by Vegeta Style, it's totally possible to have a bunch of weird ki attacks that another style might use as Involved Techniques, but are instead rolled in to a general skill.
Even if your model is how it works mechanically, though, I really doubt Poptart wouldn't give us bonuses to field control from having learned Demon Style.

I'm not sure what you mean here. If by "debuffs" you mean moves to incapacitate, I don't think the Thunder Shock Surprise is a Hand-to-Hand technique. The Four Witches Technique probably is a Hand-to-Hand buff, and might not be worth including in the final Style - we'll have to evaluate it when we get it.

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I mostly mean mobility-penalizing moves. Thunder Shock Surprise probably isn't a Hand-to-Hand skill exactly, but it might be - it'd be very strange if it didn't work with Roshi Style, after all - and I am pretty sure it can be mostly rolled into Team Fighting if that's how it's used.

I'm not sure what you think could be more optimal for "big blasts" than the Kikoho, to be honest. Nothing else is going to pack such a punch.

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You forget that we have genki dama, and psionics. I'm reasonably sure that even if no such blast exists yet, it's entirely likely that one can.
(Especially with Jaffur's innovations.)

I think the USSJ's crippling speed deficit is bad enough that unless we can learn to flicker it on and off, even grappling with it just opens you up to being punched in the face 10 times while you try to squeeze.

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Maybe we'd need to invest in eyebeams, then. It grants a commensurate bonus to firepower, after all.

I maintain that stealing all of Jaffur's personal moves he's worked very hard on will make him very upset.

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Possible, but is that really your priority here? He might be kind of upset, but given that he already released it in an emergency (Ki Refinement, the foundational skill, against Dazarel), and given what exactly we'd be using it for, it seems deeply unlikely that he'd care too much.
(Remember, we at least need to be able to fight him! That means knowing his moves, so we can devise counters! He is probably the single scariest opponent we're going to have to face, assuming Dandeer isn't shockingly good at direct combat.)

 

[Deathbybunnies]

I don't think that's how Styles work, when it comes down to it? I think Involved Techniques refer to "the things you default to/attempt to draw the full potential out of". Going by Vegeta Style, it's totally possible to have a bunch of weird ki attacks that another style might use as Involved Techniques, but are instead rolled in to a general skill.
Even if your model is how it works mechanically, though, I really doubt Poptart wouldn't give us bonuses to field control from having learned Demon Style.

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We've been explicitly told that Demon Style acomplishes its battlefield control with big exploding attacks to drive the enemy where you want them to go. We have no such attacks in our Style. I do not believe that knowing how Demon Style does it will be relevant to Kakara Style if Kakara Style does not have the tools to do it.

I mostly mean mobility-penalizing moves. Thunder Shock Surprise probably isn't a Hand-to-Hand skill exactly, but it might be - it'd be very strange if it didn't work with Roshi Style, after all - and I am pretty sure it can be mostly rolled into Team Fighting if that's how it's used.

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Thunder Shock Surprise is a ranged move.

You forget that we have genki dama, and psionics. I'm reasonably sure that even if no such blast exists yet, it's entirely likely that one can.
(Especially with Jaffur's innovations.)

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We have the Genki Dama, but that's not enough to eschew other ki blasts entirely! Our psionic gifts do not lend themselves to attacks, they're Sight and Internal Mental Control.

Possible, but is that really your priority here? He might be kind of upset, but given that he already released it in an emergency (Ki Refinement, the foundational skill, against Dazarel), and given what exactly we'd be using it for, it seems deeply unlikely that he'd care too much.
(Remember, we at least need to be able to fight him! That means knowing his moves, so we can devise counters! He is probably the single scariest opponent we're going to have to face, assuming Dandeer isn't shockingly good at direct combat.)

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If we really needed Jaffur's techniques then we could do it, but no I don't believe the fallout is worth the dubious benefit. Especially when it would be so hard to learn. And yes, I do think he'd be upset.

 

[Terrabrand]

I don't think that's how Styles work, when it comes down to it? I think Involved Techniques refer to "the things you default to/attempt to draw the full potential out of". Going by Vegeta Style, it's totally possible to have a bunch of weird ki attacks that another style might use as Involved Techniques, but are instead rolled in to a general skill.
Even if your model is how it works mechanically, though, I really doubt Poptart wouldn't give us bonuses to field control from having learned Demon Style.

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You get style bonuses by fighting how the style fights, end of line. This is why people who know multiple styles do not get to just... magically stack them all.

The involved techniques then are the things that are actually part of how the style works. Yes, a Goku Style fighter can do a Kikoho, say, but not while still fighting in the Goku Style.

The bonuses come conceptually from this being an actual coherent fighting style where you have techniques that naturally flow together and you've trained to use in specific ways as opposed to execute at all. Which techniques are actually part of the style actually is defining of where you have to stick to if you want to be using the style and hence receiving the full bonuses.

At least assuming I'm not massively misremembering or misinterpreting. I don't think I am, but I'm not poptart so my word isn't law etc etc.

 

[Koraan]

When I say "debuff" I mean, mostly, "anything that gives penalties to the enemy without actually deal damage". Solar Flare to blinding, Telekinesis as Dezerel used it to hindered movements, things like gravity control, using telepathy to distract them,...

If we really needed Jaffur's techniques then we could do it, but no I don't believe the fallout is worth the dubious benefit. Especially when it would be so hard to learn. And yes, I do think he'd be upset.

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I think we may look at them, to understand how to counter it, at least. After that we may decide if we want to learn something.

The involved techniques then are the things that are actually part of how the style works. Yes, a Goku Style fighter can do a Kikoho, say, but not while still fighting in the Goku Style.

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to @HoratioVonBecker. He is wrong. It can't work that way, because "Penalized tecniques" line. If user couldn't use any techniques that not a part of the Involved Techniques, that would be unnecessary.
And even Penalized techniques can be use while you use style, because "penalized" isn't "impracticable". Vegeta style penalized Ki Control. No way stylists can't use it while use that style.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

When I say "debuff" I mean, mostly, "anything that gives penalties to the enemy without actually deal damage". Solar Flare to blinding, Telekinesis as Dezerel used it to hindered movements, things like gravity control, using telepathy to distract them,...


I think we may look at them, to understand how to counter it, at least. After that we may decide if we want to learn something.


to @HoratioVonBecker. He is wrong. It can't work that way, because "Penalized tecniques" line. If user couldn't use any techniques that not a part of the Involved Techniques, that would be unnecessary.
And even Penalized techniques can be use while you use style, because "penalized" isn't "impracticable". Vegeta style penalized Ki Control. No way stylists can't use it while use that style.

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No, the point is that techniques not in the Style aren't part of the Style. We can't have battlefield control techniques be part of the Style without being part of the Style, that just doesn't make sense. A Goku Stylist using the Kikoho doesn't magically stop being a Goku Stylist, it means that by using a move not part of the Style they've stopped using the style for that round.

Mechanically though, Penalised techniques have something like a -10 to all rolls, and Involved techniques have +10/20/30.

 

[Koraan]

A Goku Stylist using the Kikoho doesn't magically stop being a Goku Stylist, it means that by using a move not part of the Style they've stopped using the style for that round.

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I doubt so. Look:
Hypothetical master of Krillin Style fights with two enemies. In the sky.
He will roll HtH [Crowd Fighting] (penalized) and Flight (involved) each turn. Right? Right.
So, you can use style and penalized techniques at once.
And if you can use penalized techniques, why you can't use techniques that not involved, but not penalized either? I can't see reasons.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

I doubt so. Look:
Hypothetical master of Krillin Style fights with two enemies. In the sky.
He will roll HtH [Crowd Fighting] (penalized) and Flight (involved) each turn. Right? Right.
So, you can use style and penalized techniques at once.
And if you can use penalized techniques, why you can't use techniques that not involved, but not penalized either? I can't see reasons.

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Yeah, and the Krillin stylist stuck Crowd Fighting is taking penalties for doing so whilst trying to use Krillin style because it's not just not part of the style, it's antithetical to how the style functions. A Goku stylist using the Kikoho gets no bonuses while he's fighting as a Goku stylist, because it's not part of the style so he's making moves the style doesn't account for.

They aren't forbidden from doing these things, they just aren't part of the style and as such inherently involve breaking away from the style's methods of fighting.

And to loop back to the start, a user of the proposed Kakara style has no battlefield control moves as part of their style's toolbox, and to try and use any would involve fighting in a way not covered by the style.

 

[Pittauro]

Thunder Shock Surprise is a ranged move.

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though not really that long ranged. It's certainly not melee, But I'd classify it as short, maybe mid range.

If we really needed Jaffur's techniques then we could do it, but no I don't believe the fallout is worth the dubious benefit. Especially when it would be so hard to learn. And yes, I do think he'd be upset.

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I'm not pushing to learn Jaffur's techniques, or at least not all of them (I'm slightly interested in the focus ray to take the Dodonpa's place in our style) but I have to point out that we're the social master, and he has pretty much no social defenses.

Except for maybe convincing him to not kill Dandeer I think we could have him do or accept nearly anything we wanted to.

That's to say, even if he gets upset we'd likely be able to calm him down relatively easily.

The involved techniques then are the things that are actually part of how the style works. Yes, a Goku Style fighter can do a Kikoho, say, but not while still fighting in the Goku Style.

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that's actually wrong. A goku style user CAN use the kikoho. It just wouldn't get the bonus that a kamehameha would, so that usually makes the kamehameha a better option.

Also a goku style user would usually not have trained the kikoho.

You get penalties only when you try to use penalized techniques, and in this example the kikoho is not penalized in goku style.

When I say "debuff" I mean, mostly, "anything that gives penalties to the enemy without actually deal damage". Solar Flare to blinding, Telekinesis as Dezerel used it to hindered movements, things like gravity control, using telepathy to distract them,...

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I do have to point our (again i think) that dazarel's tk was psychich in nature and not ki-based.

While we could probably do something similar, it would likely not be as effective.

No, the point is that techniques not in the Style aren't part of the Style. We can't have battlefield control techniques be part of the Style without being part of the Style, that just doesn't make sense. A Goku Stylist using the Kikoho doesn't magically stop being a Goku Stylist, it means that by using a move not part of the Style they've stopped using the style for that round.

Mechanically though, Penalised techniques have something like a -10 to all rolls, and Involved techniques have +10/20/30.

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Styles also have "penalized techniques." If a character uses these techniques while using a Style, they not only lose the benefit of the Style, but gain an equal and opposite malus to all combat checks while using those techniques.

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we don't get a -10, we get a malus equal to the normal bonus for involved techniques.

no bonus or malus to techniques not belonging to the style as long as they're not penalized.

 

[Koraan]

Yeah, and the Krillin stylist stuck Crowd Fighting is taking penalties for doing so whilst trying to use Krillin style because it's not just not part of the style, it's antithetical to how the style functions.

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Yes. That's right. But he can do it while using the style. If he want. If he think bonuses to Ki Control, Flight and anything else he uses worth it.
Add after read @Pittauro message: What the fuck? Well, if that's right and user not get maluses and bonuses at once, but only maluses, there really no point to not just drop the style if you need to use something penalized.

A Goku stylist using the Kikoho gets no bonuses while he's fighting as a Goku stylist, because it's not part of the style so he's making moves the style doesn't account for.

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Nope. He will get penalties, because "Ki Projection [All Save explicitly Involved Techniques]" is penaltized for Goku style.
But if he uses, at the same turn, Kaio-Ken and Instant Transmission, he may think (mechanically) get one penalty and two bonuses will worth it. Or, if he uses only Kihoko, he may stop using Goku style, to avoid penalties.
Add after read @Pittauro message: What the fuck? Well, if that's right and user not get maluses and bonuses at once, but only maluses, there really no point to not just drop the style if you need to use something penalized.

They aren't forbidden from doing these things, they just aren't part of the style and as such inherently involve breaking away from the style's methods of fighting.

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Umm... Kinda, but not really? Vegeta style penalized Ki Control. But without ki control you can't use all that flashy beams that style involved.
Add after read @Pittauro message: What the fuck with that?! How the users of the Vegeta style even fight?!

a user of the proposed Kakara style has no battlefield control moves as part of their style's toolbox, and to try and use any would involve fighting in a way not covered by the style.

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I think even Hand-to-Hand skill may be used as "battlefield control move". Because, you know, in DB you can blow a mountans with a bare hands, if you have enough power. Easy. I think, Kakara can do it right now, in "shadow form".
So, battlefield control is less specific moves/techniques, and more how you use it.

and in this example the kikoho is not penalized in goku style.

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Um? "Ki Projection [All Save explicitly Involved Techniques]" is penaltized for Goku style.

I do have to point our (again i think) that dazarel's tk was psychich in nature and not ki-based.

While we could probably do something similar, it would likely not be as effective.

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There I don't say we should learn TK (I think we should, but not said about it right in that message). I just want to clarify what I mean when say "we need more debuffs in our style".

 

[Pittauro]

Um? "Ki Projection [All Save explicitly Involved Techniques]" is penaltized for Goku style.

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Uh, I forgot that bit. I probably confused it with another style

Umm... Kinda, but not really? Vegeta style penalized Ki Control. But without ki control you can't use all that flashy beams that style involved.
Add after read @Pittauro message: What the fuck with that?! How the users of the Vegeta style even fight?!

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Ki control is not ki talents skills category or combat skills category. It's a bit more restricted than that.

I quote from Kakara's character sheet

Ki Control [Exceptional]: You can raise yourself to maximum power in a heartbeat and drop it down as quickly if you ever need to avoid notice. You are in perfect control of yourself and your body at all times, and move with nearly ethereal grace. You feel as though there is little you can do to directly improve your talents as they stand now...so why do you feel like there's more still to learn...?

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From this it seems like it's all about controlling your power level with precision, raising your power quickly and without the whole "ground shaking, storm ensues", and general gracefullness with ki in general.

So a Vegeta stylist might have troubles, for example, to fight at less than full power, or to go "I'm going to fight at 7.3 millions right now". Less precision and more time required to go full power, and likely harder to hide your pl. Maybe less efficient ki use in general.

Yes. That's right. But he can do it while using the style. If he want. If he think bonuses to Ki Control, Flight and anything else he uses worth it.
Add after read @Pittauro message: What the fuck? Well, if that's right and user not get maluses and bonuses at once, but only maluses, there really no point to not just drop the style if you need to use something penalized.

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It might not be that easy to change your style mid-fight. I don't think it has ever been mentioned how changing styles in battle works, just that you can only ever use the bonuses from one style at a time.

Actually I'll ask: @PoptartProdigy how does changing styles mid-battle works?




This is all there is about styles from the rules and lore threadmarks, in case someone didn't see it.

Let us clear up one frequent misunderstanding right away: you can only gain the benefits of one style at a time. You can have as many as you can learn; you can't benefit from more than one at any given moment.

A style represents a character unifying their various techniques into a form to improve combat efficiency. Styles allow you to specialize in a certain style of combat and specific techniques, and offers powerful bonuses at the highest levels of mastery. Styles are, to the Saiyan society, derived by examining the forms of their predecessors -- the Lords Vegeta and Goku are, for instance, respectively considered to be the current paragons of the Vegeta and Goku styles of combat. The players will have the opportunity to select a style or, if they want to put in the time, build their own from the ground up.

Styles are rated on five levels from Incipient to Master (Incipient, Novice, Practitioner, Expert, Master), with each rank representing your facility in it along with what benefits it provides. Every rank, starting from Novice, grants +10 to all combat checks while the style is in use. An Incipient style isn't really a style at all -- it simply represents your fighting beginning to resemble a style due to frequent use of its techniques. Somebody who frequently uses the Kamehameha Wave, Instant Transmission, and one-on-one hand-to-hand combat, for instance, but doesn't study the techniques of Son Goku in particular, could be said to have an Incipient Goku style. Thus, it grants no bonuses. Master Styles, on the other hand, are the result of long and intensive training and represent a complete understanding of the ins and outs of those styles' techniques, as well as the possibility of advancing the general understanding of the style and elevating it to a new level.

Styles come into mechanical effect when a character decides to use it. However, this comes with restrictions; as a Style reflects specializing in something, those bonuses only come into play while using the "involved techniques" of a style, and while acting in a manner consistent with the style's philosophies. The Goku Style, for instance, being an overwhelmingly aggressive and melee-focused form, offers its bonuses to characters that spend the majority of their time up close, personal, and on the attack. Styles also have "penalized techniques." If a character uses these techniques while using a Style, they not only lose the benefit of the Style, but gain an equal and opposite malus to all combat checks while using those techniques. You can find the lists of techniques for each Style under the list of known Styles in the Lore Screen. If a technique has the words, "Signature," or "Extreme," after it on its entry, then it offers double the usual Style modifier. This double applies only if that technique is used, and only while that technique is in use. Potent, yes -- but very tactically limiting.

Styles once increased or decreased training time for involved or penalized techniques. That was a poor decision, and it no longer does.

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These are the styles of which Kakara is presently aware, and consequently is capable of learning.

Goku Style: The iconic style of your House, this style relies on overwhelming physical assaults and is heavily offensive in nature, falling back on mobility to evade attacks only when severely outmatched. Ki blasts are used, but generally not as a primary feature of combat. They're finishing attacks, not the main show, and outside a special few, practitioners of this form will have little facility here. Given its progenitor, it is not remotely suited to fighting with anybody else, having been created in expectation and even anticipation of fighting all enemies alone. Involved techniques: Hand-to-Hand [Dueling], Kaio-Ken, Kamehameha, Instant Transmission, Spirit Bomb (Lost Technique). Penalized techniques: Hand-to-Hand [Team Fighting], Ki Projection [All Save explicitly Involved Techniques].

Vegeta Style: The iconic style of House Vegeta, this form tends towards a different approach. Created by a warrior who commonly fought entire armies unaided or with limited backup, this form shines when put against multiple foes. As is only sensible for those kinds of conditions, ranged combat proved to be most efficient, and thus while the practitioners of this style can certainly fight up close, they have a lot of talent at range. It is overwhelmingly aggressive and unrestrained, and has virtually no response to being put on the back foot. This style emphasizes absorbing punishment over avoiding it, and thus is not for the weak of body or spirit. Involved techniques: Hand-to-Hand [Crowd Fighting], Galick Gun, Big Bang Attack, Final Flash, Ki Projection [Basic Attacks]. Penalized techniques: Flight, Ki Control, Hand-to-Hand [Team Fighting].

Krillin Style: A balanced form that plays well with others, this style is near-unique in that it seems to have been built in the expectation of being outmatched. Emphasizing evasion and targeting of vulnerabilities, this form has virtually no defense to direct confrontation. Given its creator, that's sensible. Practitioners of the above two forms tend to study this at least a bit so that they're not so helpless should they be confronted with a superior opponent, and so they don't commit the grand idiocy of being so overwhelmingly offensive that they prefer to allow themselves to be punched in the face if it allows them to do the same to their opponent. Involved techniques: Ki Control, Solar Flare, Kienzan, Flight, Hand-to-Hand [Team Fighting], Kamehameha. Penalized techniques: Hand-to-Hand [Dueling], Hand-to-Hand [Crowd Fighting].

Piccolo Style/Demon Style: The form of Piccolo, this emphasizes precise and clever strikes with great concentration of power, and a balance of offense and defense. It possesses powerful techniques at any range, but lacks specialization. Practicing this style demands an ability to control the field of battle as is most expedient at any given moment. Involved techniques: Makankosappo, Explosive Wave, Evil Explosion, Masenko, Light Grenade, Hellzone Grenade. Penalized techniques: None.

Turtle Style: Roshi's style is largely an anachronism that was designed before the full potential of ki was realized by the Z Fighters, and you should not use it in a real fight. It is meant to be used by a fighter locked to the ground, against a fighter locked to the ground, and treats any and all external use of ki as a flagrant and extravagant expense to be saved only for the direst of eventualities. That said, as a foundation for other styles, it's fantastic. Its reliance on hand-to-hand means that practitioners are very good at it in absolutely all of its forms. Involved techniques: Hand-to-Hand [all, signature], Kamehameha. Penalized techniques: All Ki Talents (save Ki Control) and Ki Projection skills, and cripplingly so.

Trunks Style: While Trunks of our timeline contributed little to fighting given that he never actually refined his technique beyond what he had at eight years of age, his future counterpart contributed a brutally pragmatic and survivalist style to the Z Fighters' understanding of combat. This style assumes constant unfavorable numbers against overwhelmingly powerful opponents, demanding insane agility and swift exploitation of exposed openings, with none of the acknowledged theatricality of other styles. In addition, it is the only form developed in conjunction with a weapon. It shines against multiple opponents and when outmatched, and its use of a sword tends to take opponents off-guard. Involved techniques: Sword Use, Hand-to-Hand [Crowd Fighting], Flight (signature), Burning Attack, Masenko, Heat Dome Attack, Final Flash. Penalized techniques: Hand-to-Hand [Team Fighting, or all when without a sword], Ki Sense.

Yamcha Style: This is nearly extinct, but to be honest, it's undervalued. While he eventually retired and was constantly outmatched in strength, many forget that Yamcha was a talented martial artist, who even after years of retirement and with a total lack of Saiyan biology was able to defend against Golden Freeza's invasion of Earth right along with the rest of the Z Fighters. As a derivation of the Turtle School it contains all that you would expect, along with a focus on flurry strikes and esoteric ki techniques that overwhelm the opponent's ability to keep up -- very much the school of death by a thousand cuts. Involved techniques: Hand-to-Hand [Dueling], Spirit Ball, Kamehameha, Flight, Wolf Fang Fist. Penalized Techniques: Ki Sense, Ki Projection (all save involved techniques).

Tenshinhan Style: This form is rarely-practiced, but deceptive for all that. Tenshinhan's form is refined and balanced, offering few concrete advantages, but unlocking the potential to pour the user's life force into an attack. Practitioners have no stylistic weaknesses, and gain a risky but powerful last resort option, in addition to a variety of strange techniques. Involved techniques: Solar Flare, Multi-Form, Four Witches Technique, Kikoho, Dodonpa, Shin Kikoho, Flight.

Gohan Style: A blend of the Demon and Goku Styles, this form is more heavily geared towards hand-to-hand than the Piccolo Style and loses on some of its versatility and most of its precision, but lacks the near-total weakness of the Goku Style outside of zero range. In addition, it is less useless on the defensive than the Goku Style in exchange for tending to be less effective on the attack, and is in fact capable of, when necessary, dodging. That said, it retains a preference for the offensive in a fight. This is an excellent form for fighters with a hand-to-hand focus who don't wish to risk the notorious overspecialization of the Goku Style. Involved techniques: Kamehameha, Masenko, Hand-to-Hand [Dueling]. Penalized techniques: Hand-to-Hand [Team Fighting], all Ki Projection talents that involve the dense concentration of power.

Satan Style: NO. Involved techniques: Losing. Penalized techniques: Self-awareness.

Freeza Style: Overwhelmingly offensive and lethal combat style. This style favors single-target techniques, grappling, and hand-to-hand combat, but has provisions for larger blasts. Freeza stylists suffer (arguably) from one unique flaw -- unlike other martial artists, Freeza stylists must continue to make checks against accidental lethal damage when using a combat skill that has been improved to "Competent" or above if trying to do so non-lethally. Freeza stylists are outright disallowed from attempting to inflict non-lethal damage with skills that are at "Unlearned" or worse. However, using techniques with lethal intent nets a moderate bonus to all checks. Freeza stylists who reveal their study of the style instantly gain the reputation, "Legacy of Freeza," lending crushing penalties to interactions within Exile Society and disabling all positive reputations while among Garenhuld saiyans for a year following the revelation of the stylist's focus. At the end of the year, depending on the stylist's actions, they may or may not get their positive reputations back. Involved techniques: Death Ball, Death Saucer, Death Wave, Death Cannon, Death Beam (signature), Hand-to-Hand (Dueling). Penalized techniques: Ki Control (extreme), Ki Sense, Hand-to-Hand (Team Fighting)

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[Koraan]

Ki control is not ki talents skills category or combat skills category. It's a bit more restricted than that.

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I mean - you need to use Ki Control to, you know, control your ki. So, anytime Vegeta Style user try to control his ki, he lose all bonuses and get malus. So, they get malus all the time.

From this it seems like it's all about controlling your power level with precision, raising your power quickly and without the whole "ground shaking, storm ensues", and general gracefullness with ki in general.

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That.
Also:

You are in perfect control of yourself and your body at all times, and move with nearly ethereal grace.

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That looks like Ki Control also help with control over your body. Oops for Vegeta Style? Every time they try to move arm or leg they get malus!

All above is an exaggeration, mostly. But point is still there - they can't use ki without some level of control over it. That mean they need to use Ki Control, even if they don't need to make roll.

Maybe less efficient ki use in general.

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I thinked so. Until your post revealed The Terrifying Truth (tm)!
Earlier, I thinked bonuses and penalties from the style counts simultaneously. I.e. when user of the Krillin Style (involved Team Fighting, penalized Crowd Fighting) fights as part of a team against enemy team, he get bonus for Team Fighting roll, and penalty for Crowd Fighting roll.
But actually, as the quote quoted by you above shows, he will get maluses for both rolls.

Styles are rated on five levels from Incipient to Master (Incipient, Novice, Practitioner, Expert, Master)

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Where a Journeyman, by the way? This is the new name for the Practitioner stage? Or there a six stages now?

 

[PoptartProdigy]

It might not be that easy to change your style mid-fight. I don't think it has ever been mentioned how changing styles in battle works, just that you can only ever use the bonuses from one style at a time.

Actually I'll ask: @PoptartProdigy how does changing styles mid-battle works?

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Generally, it takes a free second to reset yourself. Kinda throws off the rhythm if you change your fighting style mid-fight, tends to leave openings. If you are particularly skilled (Expert and above) in the style to which you are switching, you can switch under progressively greater levels of distraction.

Where a Journeyman, by the way? This is the new name for the Practitioner stage? Or there a six stages now?

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Somebody typo'd. Journeyman is a Sight rank.

 

[Koraan]

@PoptartProdigy, excuse me for bothering you, but I need a clarification. How "penalized techniques" in styles works?
For example:
User of the Krillin Style (involved Team Fighting, penalized Crowd Fighting) fights as part of a team against enemy team. He get bonus for Team Fighting roll, and penalty for Crowd Fighting roll, or maluses for both rolls?

 

[Pittauro]

Generally, it takes a free second to reset yourself. Kinda throws off the rhythm if you change your fighting style mid-fight, tends to leave openings. If you are particularly skilled (Expert and above) in the style to which you are switching, you can switch under progressively greater levels of distraction.

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ah, that's easy then: we just need to monologue a bit to get the needed second!

take a page out of Naruto and go Talk-no-jutsu, but as a distraction!

...actually the dragonball equivalent might be "this is not even my final form style!"

I mean - you need to use Ki Control to, you know, control your ki. So, anytime Vegeta Style user try to control his ki, he lose all bonuses and get malus. So, they get malus all the time.

That.
Also:
That looks like Ki Control also help with control over your body. Oops for Vegeta Style? Every time they try to move arm or leg they get malus!

All above is an exaggeration, mostly. But point is still there - they can't use ki without some level of control over it. That mean they need to use Ki Control, even if they don't need to make roll.

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that malus would probably only be applied when you try to use fancy tricks with your ki.

Vegeta mostly didn't use "graceful" or "skilled" techniques. His ace, the Final flash, was basically "pump as much ki as possible in the technique and hit with it all at once!"

He also never really held back, and fought at full power.

it being penalized might also symbolize how vegeta style users, with their lesser control, usually cause more collateral damage than normal.

I think you're making ki control out to be more important that it actually is.

 

[Koraan]

I think you're making ki control out to be more important that it actually is.

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Can someone without Ki Control skill use any ki-related skill? I doubt it. You need somehow control your ki to do it. Even if it is wery basic control like "pump as much ki as possible in the technique", you can't pump something into anything, if you can't control that something at least in some degree.

P.S. My "insightful" reaction is about first part of message, by the way.

 

[PoptartProdigy]

@PoptartProdigy, excuse me for bothering you, but I need a clarification. How "penalized techniques" in styles works?
For example:
User of the Krillin Style (involved Team Fighting, penalized Crowd Fighting) fights as part of a team against enemy team. He get bonus for Team Fighting roll, and penalty for Crowd Fighting roll, or maluses for both rolls?

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Penalty to crowd fighting if engaging more than one person at once. The general tactical approach, in this case, would be along the lines of trying to maneuver such that the Krillin stylist's team can isolate members of the other team. Krillin style heavily emphasizes swarm tactics to wear down superior opponents; generally, a Krillin stylist will tell you that if you're taking an even fight, you need to use a different style.

So, in the abstract sense of, "team vs. team," maluses to both. Thus, in the situation as it would stand on the ground, the Krillin stylist would attempt to engage such that they could work with their own team members against single members of the enemy team, working to isolate targets and break apart the enemy's team dynamic. If they managed that, they would simply be rolling with the style bonus for Team Fighting.

 

[Koraan]

So, in the abstract sense of, "team vs. team," maluses to both. Thus, in the situation as it would stand on the ground, the Krillin stylist would attempt to engage such that they could work with their own team members against single members of the enemy team, working to isolate targets and break apart the enemy's team dynamic. If they managed that, they would simply be rolling with the style bonus for Team Fighting.

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Thanks for answer.

 

[HoratioVonBecker]

We've been explicitly told that Demon Style acomplishes its battlefield control with big exploding attacks to drive the enemy where you want them to go. We have no such attacks in our Style. I do not believe that knowing how Demon Style does it will be relevant to Kakara Style if Kakara Style does not have the tools to do it.

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True, which is why I wanted to add some control stuff to Kakara Style. I suspect Demon will at least give a starting point, even if we can't make most of its' techniques Involved.

Thunder Shock Surprise is a ranged move.

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Good to know. Guess it should be rolled into Ki Projection [Team Fighting]?

We have the Genki Dama, but that's not enough to eschew other ki blasts entirely! Our psionic gifts do not lend themselves to attacks, they're Sight and Internal Mental Control.

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Remember the lightning shield? Whole song and dance, got it unlocked by Bassoon's uncle, it turned into physical lightning?
My point is that we could probably make something like a genkidama/kikoho/Apocalypse Beam/psy-lightning/whatever-else hybrid that works even better as a ludicrously powerful finisher. Kikoho will probably do the job for now, but it's not what I want to finish with.

If we really needed Jaffur's techniques then we could do it, but no I don't believe the fallout is worth the dubious benefit. Especially when it would be so hard to learn. And yes, I do think he'd be upset.

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I think the fallout is kind of dubious, and the benefit pretty obvious. He revolutionized beam struggles, and that's apparently not even his best move.
We don't have to take his exact moves, though - just knowing how he built them would be good enough for me. Seriously doubt he'd be upset at that.

You get style bonuses by fighting how the style fights, end of line. This is why people who know multiple styles do not get to just... magically stack them all.

The involved techniques then are the things that are actually part of how the style works. Yes, a Goku Style fighter can do a Kikoho, say, but not while still fighting in the Goku Style.

The bonuses come conceptually from this being an actual coherent fighting style where you have techniques that naturally flow together and you've trained to use in specific ways as opposed to execute at all. Which techniques are actually part of the style actually is defining of where you have to stick to if you want to be using the style and hence receiving the full bonuses.

At least assuming I'm not massively misremembering or misinterpreting. I don't think I am, but I'm not poptart so my word isn't law etc etc.

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You also get bonuses to designing a style if you know how relevant styles work. Which is about two thirds of why I want Demon.
(The final third is because the Namekian variant is probably distant enough to give us a learning bonus when we come back home and see the Garenhulder version.
...Also, new conspiracy theory: Cynthia has been using a secret spaceship to go visit the wider galaxy and bring back secrets like Capsule tech and her Krillin style variant. We should make sure to ask her when we get back. )

And to loop back to the start, a user of the proposed Kakara style has no battlefield control moves as part of their style's toolbox, and to try and use any would involve fighting in a way not covered by the style.

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The root of this is something we should resolve with an Ask vote.
[X][ASK] What sort of needs and limits do a style's Involved Techniques have? Would we need to list each specific ki attack, or would a coherent philosophy (eg Ki Projection: Team Fighting) be good enough? What's the practical upper limit for number of Involved Techniques?

 

[Deathbybunnies]

True, which is why I wanted to add some control stuff to Kakara Style. I suspect Demon will at least give a starting point, even if we can't make most of its' techniques Involved.

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I think you'll be struggling for space - it's questionable if we even have enough space for all the Techniques we're planning on including already.

Remember the lightning shield? Whole song and dance, got it unlocked by Bassoon's uncle, it turned into physical lightning?

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Yes, and the operative word there is shield. Our psychic gifts aren't lightning-based, they're listed on our sheet as Seer and Shield. I will be extremely surprised if you can take that concept and twist it into a ranged attack.

My point is that we could probably make something like a genkidama/kikoho/Apocalypse Beam/psy-lightning/whatever-else hybrid that works even better as a ludicrously powerful finisher. Kikoho will probably do the job for now, but it's not what I want to finish with.

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I really don't see it as a worthwhile time investment, but you do you.

I think the fallout is kind of dubious, and the benefit pretty obvious. He revolutionized beam struggles, and that's apparently not even his best move.
We don't have to take his exact moves, though - just knowing how he built them would be good enough for me. Seriously doubt he'd be upset at that.

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I still disagree, but if you want them eventually we could probably persuade him to share when we get back. In the meantime you've skipped over half of my objection - they're going to be incredibly difficult to learn as only one person knows them and has never taught anyone else. There will be no explanations or teaching sessions to See.

 

[HoratioVonBecker]

Yes, and the operative word there is shield. Our psychic gifts aren't lightning-based, they're listed on our sheet as Seer and Shield. I will be extremely surprised if you can take that concept and twist it into a ranged attack.

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Should still be useful for melee, at least. My main reason for bringing it up in context of the notional superattack is that we have considerable insight into genki, i.e. life energy, from the Kikoho and the Genki Dama, and we also have insight into yuki, aka Will energy, from our psionics.
I suspect Magic is the third pillar, Mind energy. (I don't recall the ki-type name.) But it might be possible to backdoor our way into that - getting enchanted, if nothing else.
I strongly suspect this theoretical combination attack would be even more ludicrously powerful than the components.

I really don't see it as a worthwhile time investment, but you do you.

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Why not?

I still disagree, but if you want them eventually we could probably persuade him to share when we get back. In the meantime you've skipped over half of my objection - they're going to be incredibly difficult to learn as only one person knows them and has never taught anyone else. There will be no explanations or teaching sessions to See.

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My guess is that he tried teaching Jaron at least once or twice - there must have been precious little else to do, in there. Plus, I suspect watching him develop it would go a ways. There is a reason I have it as a low priority, though.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

Why not?

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The Kikoho is already an unusual attack for hitting harder than its user's power level, and I don't believe we have any insights that would let us craft a stronger attack without an equivalently larger cost. We already have the Genki Dama as the last word in fight-ending attacks, and our time would be better spent training that, when it becomes possible to do so. We don't don't have infinite AP, and don't really need an even stronger attack for the slot. Better to spend that time polishing skills we already have and use.

My guess is that he tried teaching Jaron at least once or twice - there must have been precious little else to do, in there. Plus, I suspect watching him develop it would go a ways. There is a reason I have it as a low priority, though.

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Jaron's complete inability to use his SSJ power in anything but the sloppiest of manners when we saw him fighting Jaffur out of sheer rage would indicate that he has not, and watching a development process could never be as helpful as someone actually explaining it in a way designed to help the listener learn the technique.

 

[HoratioVonBecker]

The Kikoho is already an unusual attack for hitting harder than its user's power level, and I don't believe we have any insights that would let us craft a stronger attack without an equivalently larger cost. We already have the Genki Dama as the last word in fight-ending attacks, and our time would be better spent training that, when it becomes possible to do so. We don't don't have infinite AP, and don't really need an even stronger attack for the slot. Better to spend that time polishing skills we already have and use.

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This is a long-term project, you realize. Not a "let's have this done before the year is out", but rather a "let's get this done before the quest is over".
If nothing else, a version of Genki Dama that can work as a beam attack would be neat.

Jaron's complete inability to use his SSJ power in anything but the sloppiest of manners when we saw him fighting Jaffur out of sheer rage would indicate that he has not, and watching a development process could never be as helpful as someone actually explaining it in a way designed to help the listener learn the technique.

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He'd learned enough from us to have fought better than that - I think "lack of training" is not the issue there. Likewise, he never really fought Yammar. I think it's at least worth a look, even if all we get out of it is a proper warning for our fight with Jaffur.

 

[Aranfan]

...Also, new conspiracy theory: Cynthia has been using a secret spaceship to go visit the wider galaxy and bring back secrets like Capsule tech and her Krillin style variant. We should make sure to ask her when we get back. )

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Would the wider galaxy have even heard of krillin?