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Dragon Ball: After the End

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Lailoken said:
-because I was on mobile and grabbing the first search result was sufficient.

My academic bona fides are well established on this forum and I'm not going to waste hours throwing citations at each other just to prove I can.
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So you didn't read the actual article, you just looked at an out of context quote and assumed it would be enough, because we weren't going to check.

And if you actually have academic bona fides, you should seriously know better than to quote a tabloid article that takes stuff out of context. Here is an article written by the person they quoted: Does Homework Improve Academic Achievement? His actual stance on the issue is significantly more complex.

My feeling is that homework policies should prescribe amounts of homework consistent with the research evidence, but which also give individual schools and teachers some flexibility to take into account the unique needs and circumstances of their students and families. In general, teachers should avoid either extreme.
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(Also: What is your academic field? Because if it's not related to at minimum psychology, or involving teaching... Well I guess it means you know how to find papers.

Edit: Or if you've taken specific education to become a better teacher, too)

The fact is that this game doesn't have a "how to learn" skill to level up and the character has done just fine independently self-directing towards researching things as varied as a comprehensive review of every combat style ever known and memorizing obscenely complicated peerage histories and networks. The -minor- concern is how much of the actual information she picks up, and for those purposes elementary homework is useless.
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Except, you know, the actual runner of the quest saying it did matter, and that it could make things harder for future years. This whole argument is not about the possible consequences; that has already been decided, it's a fact. You seem to be waving that off. For just the "Actions in the future" and "harder time learning" consequence...

PoptartProdigy said:
...Thus, you have no real alibi for either of those. Your parents will likely point to that time and ask why you didn't use it to keep your grades up, should they slip. Now, this isn't something that will interrupt the yearly schedule, but you can expect your teacher mother to set some stringent requirements on your time next year if you do slack and slip.

In addition to the above, a well-rounded and rigorously-attended-to education will in general make things easier on you once school gets harder in later years.
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Yes, it won't be too bad if we roll high. Nobody is saying that we're guaranteed to fail, just that we're risking it now.

I don't think we should have risked it in the first place when it was pretty easy not to.

Edit: And this is the lesser consequences, though more likely one, than the one people are actually worried about.
 
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Deathbybunnies said:
If we maintain our grades, then we are clearly still learning enough in class to understand the material, because those are from exams. That's why grades exist, as an indicator of how well you understand the material. If we pass the fairly easy roll, then no, there are no negative consequences.
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Nope, grades like that exist so that people can pretend schools are actually teaching things and students learning them instead of a combination of the subject being fresh on their minds and a slapdash memorization allowing them to pass and promptly forget everything. It is why so many people dislike math, it is the main subject where that doesn't work as well since so much builds on the previous.

It even comes up in the whole criticism of long holidays meaning students forget and schools have to spend a while backtracking. If a few months(or even weeks!) is enough to do that then they haven't actually learned it in the first place.

EDIT: Hell I am in university now and even knowing grades mean jack shit I still get caught sometimes by things I thought I learned but not really using it for a while meant I had trouble and had to go through everything again because clearly I haven't.
 
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Aranfan said:
Yes. Poptart spent several pages explaining this previously. You really haven't read any of the discussion, have you?
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Dude, seriously, calm down. I joined the quest only a few updates back, and I've read all the threadmarks and info stuff at the start of the quest, as well as most of the recent discussion. No, I haven't obsessively read 250 pages of mostly-outdated discussion.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
Dude, seriously, calm down. I joined the quest only a few updates back, and I've read all the threadmarks and info stuff at the start of the quest, as well as most of the recent discussion. No, I haven't obsessively read 250 pages of mostly-outdated discussion.
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I'm gonna support Deathbybunnies here. I never saw the quote saying that the style detriments are permanent, and I really don't think it's fair to assume that people have seen it if it's not in the threadmarks.
 
If someone could make a list of all the mechanics/important lore factoids that aren't covered in the starting material, that would be really useful - @PoptartProdigy could confirm them and maybe stick a link to the comment under "useful information"? None of the information regarding styles indicates that Penalised techniques have their learning penalised - looking at the information it actually doesn't say what the effects of involved and penalised techniques are, or even the explicit effects of a style mechanically (beyond that a style "offers powerful bonuses at the highest levels of mastery"), but it's easy to infer it's just a combat penalisation while in that stance, because it's certainly not intuitive that it makes those techniques harder to learn even while not in the stance.

I'm going to bed though, and I probably don't know most of it.
 
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Cytokinesis said:
I'm gonna support Deathbybunnies here. I never saw the quote saying that the style detriments are permanent, and I really don't think it's fair to assume that people have seen it if it's not in the threadmarks.
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Here:
PoptartProdigy said:
*cracks knuckles*

As part of my general streamlining of the combat system: The involved skills train faster, the penalized skills train slower (unless you practice another style that favors them), and the style still gain bonuses in combat if you use the style's techniques in accordance with the style's practices (i.e., overwhelmingly offensive one-on-one punching for Goku stylists). In essence, nothing there has changed; the bonus you get occurs under the same circumstances. In fact, the new way of doing things adds more stuff by virtue of the training time buffs. Additionally, Mastery in a style now constitutes an acceptable achievement for breaking into Elite+ levels on the involved skills. Finally, the mechanical bonus for a fully-mastered style has been re-balanced so that it now compensates for three skill ranks. So styles now have more benefits. One other thing is that the style gives bigger benefits the higher you go. So while a Novice style or a Practitioner style grant relatively tame (but, in a tight situation, decisive) improvements, Expert and Master will be far more significant. Previously the progression was +5/+10/+15/+20. That did not adequately reflect what I wanted Styles to model, so it is now +5/+10/+20/+30.

The sole nerf is that it only compensates for a 10% difference in PL now, given that while 10% is decisive under BOD, 20% is meant to be overwhelming, and style alone can't compensate for that. But yeah, the bonuses to combat performance for styles were always contingent on the PC fighting in a certain way.

So: aside from the PL compensation, what I've done is, variously, improve styles in general and make them do what they're meant to do in a way that's easier for me given the staggering amount of math the combat system involves.
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Cytokinesis said:
So you didn't read the actual article, you just looked at an out of context quote and assumed it would be enough, because we weren't going to check.

And if you actually have academic bona fides, you should seriously know better than to quote a tabloid article that takes stuff out of context. Here is an article written by the person they quoted: Does Homework Improve Academic Achievement? His actual stance on the issue is significantly more complex.



(Also: What is your academic field? Because if it's not related to at minimum psychology, or involving teaching... Well I guess it means you know how to find papers.

Edit: Or if you've taken specific education to become a better teacher, too)


Except, you know, the actual runner of the quest saying it did matter, and that it could make things harder for future years. This whole argument is not about the possible consequences; that has already been decided, it's a fact. You seem to be waving that off. For just the "Actions in the future" and "harder time learning" consequence...


Yes, it won't be too bad if we roll high. Nobody is saying that we're guaranteed to fail, just that we're risking it now.

I don't think we should have risked it in the first place when it was pretty easy not to.

Edit: And this is the lesser consequences, though more likely one, than the one people are actually worried about.
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My feeling is that homework policies should prescribe amounts of homework consistent with the research evidence, but which also give individual schools and teachers some flexibility to take into account the unique needs and circumstances of their students and families. In general, teachers should avoid either extreme.

"There is no evidence that any amount of homework improves the academic performance of elementary students."​

This isn't a knock-down counter, and neither are the articles you chose to reference. You've got one to support the idea of homework as time-management training- when the whole point of slacking off on academics is time management. She isn't slacking off to play video games, she's slacking off to take on responsibilities far beyond her age. You've got one suggesting a difference between good and bad homework. Yet, the character expects to be able to maintain performance on her tests without her homework, suggesting that she is dealing with the bad kind. You've got at best a small correlation in the third. You've got a self-reported survey showing that students from disadvantaged backgrounds perform worse than students from privileged backgrounds, and that homework might play a part in that.

The GM said:

PoptartProdigy said:
a well-rounded and rigorously-attended-to education will in general make things easier on you once school gets harder in later years.
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Having an education will be helpful. If grades drop, especially if they stay that way, there are consequences. Among those consequences are not, "She fails to acquire the 'how to learn' shadow skill", much less multiple "how to learn" shadow skills. In fact, when asked what the chances were that slacking off would lead to her acquiring some sort of long-term slacker disadvantage to her actual ability to learn the answer was, "zero percent."

I'm not going to discuss the specifics of my education, training, and experience here, but there is a reason I speak about things like carotid delivery of psychoactive pharmaceuticals, and if you really think that navigating Google Scholar and walking a few bibliographies is a major challenge, fine, I'll spam a couple of articles to prove I can:

http://psycnet.apa.org/books/11578/005
Contradictory results, with the positive results shrinking as opportunities to game them were reduced through repetition, counterbalancing, and standardization.

http://upload-community.kipa.co.il/819201525856.pdf
Homework effects in elementary school are minimal, and causal relations are suspect across the board.

http://www.ascd.org/ASCD/pdf/journals/ed_lead/el198911_cooper.pdf
"The evidence is clear... For elementary school students the effect of homework on achievement is trivial, if it exists at all."

ScienceDirect
In seventh graders homework does produce an improvement, but appears to do it by helping those who would underperform rather than the better students who were going to do well anyway, among whom the main character is.


Again, the kid isn't slacking off on filling in her multiplication tables exercises to play video games; she's managing her time so she can independently complete comprehensive reviews of 300 years of baroque literature at age nine. She's going to be fine.
 
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Aranfan said:
Yammar Vegeta comes to a halt opposite Dandeer on the stage, "Give me a single reason why I should not vaporize you where you stand for daring to imply that what you did to my grandson is my fault in any way."

"I have a reason" you say.

His eyes turn to you, "Really? Do share."

"Because you failed in your duty as Patriarch to reign in Vegeta." The lack of noise in the Hall is deafening as you say this. "Your son nearly killed your grandson, and you were nowhere to be found. You broke your son, and didn't do anything to prevent him from breaking your grandson in turn." Yammar's face is completely blank. "My father is only alive because Jaffur wasn't broken yet, but your negligence bears no credit for that."

The Patriarch Vegeta's face twists into a snarl as you sense him building up a ki attack, and you charge at him to hit him into the sky and away from the people. You succeed, but take his eyebeam full on in exchange.

As you reorient you note that the people at the meeting are running away, and Grandma is already engaging Yammar. You join her, hemming Yammar in, preventing him from opening the range he clearly wants to. He's good, way better than you, but with you and Grandma he's losing.

Then a green hand grabs your leg and whiplashes you into the wall of the training hall.

You dig yourself out of the rubble and are shocked to see a Namekian. The need to IT out of the way of his Special Beam Cannon fortunately breaks you out of it. Where the hell did this guy come from? You seek out with your mind, and find a distortion. Is that Sensei Carrick and his niece? Shit, they're in dang...

WHAM

Oh yeah, you're still in a fight. Ouch. You're lucky you don't really need that leg to fight. Probably not going to be kicking that Namekian any time soon.

You snap off a Kamehameha, and manage to get him in the chest. He staggers, and you follow up with a flurry of punches. Unfortunately for you, he's as tough as Namekians are supposed to be, because he gets his bearings while you're pounding on him. Soon enough he's parrying some, then most, then all of your blows.

You hear a bang as you sense Yammar closes a Hellzone Grenade on Grandma.

But now you're on the defensive. You're barely managing to parry all, most, some of his blows. It's all you can do to dodge him. Then you make a mistake. You leave yourself open just a smidge too much, and he has you dead to rights. His claw of a hand zooms towards your chest, his arm extending unnaturally.

Then Grandma's kienzan flashes in and you're able to open up space as the namekian retracts his stump. You barely have time to breathe before you see Yammar blow a whole through grandma's stomach with a galick gun.

It's suddenly hard to breathe. Which makes sense. You just saw your grandma die. No, wait, that's not grief, that's the hole the namekian put in your lung. You fall, and manage to angle to land next to grandma.

You blink as you hit the ground and suddenly daddy is there. "Mom, Kakara." He whispers as he holds you. Grandma says something, but you're having trouble hearing. You manage get a "dad..y" out through the bad lung before you start coughing.

He hugs you close, then suddenly looks up glaring at someone. You've never seen him so mad. "You!" he says, angrier than you've ever heard him. You're tired. "This is ALL YOUR FAULT! YOU'VE TAKEN EVERYTHING FROM ME!"

Things are getting dark even as daddy's power spikes. Wait, no. Daddy... the enemy... will...

-

You snap awake. What the hell was that?

"Karen?" Maya asks, "You okay?"

You nod at her, "Yeah, just a bad dream."

It didn't feel like a dream, it felt like a vision. But you're losing it like a dream. Something about a fight? Yammar? Or was it Piccolo? You huff, unable to remember, and lay your head down to get some more sleep.
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I spy a Cynthia, with my little eye.

In honor of the staggering amount of crossover between this quest and that RP, have a "canon." You bonus is redeemable towards "reacting towards an unexpected enemy."

Andres110 said:
@PoptartProdigy

Just an idea, but once a turn can you write up an interlude that doesn't have anything to do with the updates? It can be used to give screentime to people who are important parts of Kakara's life but rarely if ever show up in the updates, like our mother.

Another option is to use the interludes to give us an opportunity to develop Kakara via scenarios that happen outside of the year updates. Example: A bully hits Maya for teh lulz. After helping Maya and making sure she's ok, we then have to choose whether we want to take a calm, measured response, a heated response with lots of yelling, or the appropriate response.

Is turning Super Saiyan 2 safe if we do it in a pure Saiyan masque? Our power level would be cut to 60%, so our power level as a Super Saiyan 2 would be 1.35 billion which is less than our Golden Ape.

What does Berra think about Dandeer's excommunication and our involvement in it?

As an additional baseline for "weird stuff ki can do that REALLY doesn't have to be magic-exclusive" beyond Multiform and Four Witches, look at the Power Ball. It does actual science stuff using ki.
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Hm. That sounds very fun, actually. Could throw one of those into every year post, yeah. And I absolutely do intend on throwing more small, random situations your way during the course of the years. Now that we're clear of the first two and we're all clear on how this works, after all, I now get to experiment. :evil:

That sounds sensible, but given their very nature as something that restricts power level, Masques in general are not conducive to transformations that are all about breaking limits. What you suggest has been tried, with SSJ as a test run and the result was that the saiyans involved just dropped out of Masque before going SSJ.
Of course, none of them had a Legendary Masque Affinity...

He, uh...hasn't talked about it. You're not sure what that means. On the one hand, he's made his utter disinterest and near-disdain for the Cult clear. On the other...Dandeer is more outcast than ever. Hard to say.

I've already got a few ideas for really esoteric ki stuff, but that is one example, yes.

Deathbybunnies said:
Wait really? I thought it just made us less effective at using those things while using the style, not made it harder to learn. @PoptartProdigy , can you confirm?
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Andres110 said:
@PoptartProdigy, are there any permanently detrimental effects of learning Tien Style?
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Deathbybunnies said:
If someone could make a list of all the mechanics/important lore factoids that aren't covered in the starting material, that would be really useful - @PoptartProdigy could confirm them and maybe stick a link to the comment under "useful information"? None of the information regarding styles indicates that Penalised techniques have their learning penalised - looking at the information it actually doesn't say what the effects of involved and penalised techniques are, or even the explicit effects of a style mechanically (beyond that a style "offers powerful bonuses at the highest levels of mastery"), but it's easy to infer it's just a combat penalisation while in that stance, because it's certainly not intuitive that it makes those techniques harder to learn even while not in the stance.

I'm going to bed though, and I probably don't know most of it.
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As Gore17 linked, the training time penalties were originally a part of Styles. However, upon further consideration, I'm no longer certain that that should be the case. As pointed out, style training isn't necessarily something that's a 24/7 occupation. Thus, I've decided to remove the training time penalties. Penalized techniques will still be harder to use in combat if you're using your style, but they won't suffer a permanent, full-time training penalty. Even if they did, as a style with no penalized techniques Tenshinhan Style would not be impacted. I'm updating the explanations now to reflect this (additionally, the explanation of styles up front is badly out of date in general).
 
PoptartProdigy said:
I spy a Cynthia, with my little eye.

In honor of the staggering amount of crossover between this quest and that RP, have a "canon." You bonus is redeemable towards "reacting towards an unexpected enemy."



Hm. That sounds very fun, actually. Could throw one of those into every year post, yeah. And I absolutely do intend on throwing more small, random situations your way during the course of the years. Now that we're clear of the first two and we're all clear on how this works, after all, I now get to experiment. :evil:

That sounds sensible, but given their very nature as something that restricts power level, Masques in general are not conducive to transformations that are all about breaking limits. What you suggest has been tried, with SSJ as a test run and the result was that the saiyans involved just dropped out of Masque before going SSJ.
Of course, none of them had a Legendary Masque Affinity...

He, uh...hasn't talked about it. You're not sure what that means. On the one hand, he's made his utter disinterest and near-disdain for the Cult clear. On the other...Dandeer is more outcast than ever. Hard to say.

I've already got a few ideas for really esoteric ki stuff, but that is one example, yes.







As Gore17 linked, the training time penalties were originally a part of Styles. However, upon further consideration, I'm no longer certain that that should be the case. As pointed out, style training isn't necessarily something that's a 24/7 occupation. Thus, I've decided to remove the training time penalties. Penalized techniques will still be harder to use in combat if you're using your style, but they won't suffer a permanent, full-time training penalty. Even if they did, as a style with no penalized techniques Tenshinhan Style would not be impacted. I'm updating the explanations now to reflect this (additionally, the explanation of styles up front is badly out of date in general).
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Thanks! I'm going to bed now (for real this time) but before I do, if someone did make a big list of stuff said in discussion and not the threadmarks, could you link it in one of the information posts at the start? I think it would be really useful.
 
@PoptartProdigy, we're not taking an action on Fennella which means we're maintaining our relationship instead of deepening it. Considering that she's a Saiyan and she'll want to spar with us, will there be a decreased chance of skill rust if we fail all Warrior's Path actions this year?
 
Andres110 said:
Teh fack?
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Cynthia is Aranfan's character in the Dragon Ball RP run by @Nathaniel Wolff. The RP, which you may find a link to in Nathaniel's sig, experiences a large amount of crossover with this quest, to the extent that Nathaniel and I have standardized our canons between us to make this easier on us. At some point, the RP will cross over with this quest within the context of this quest, although that point is quite some time in the future. Cynthia Balor is a Time Patroller recruited from a Parallel Quest of Garenhuld Main (i.e., us). She is Sensei's niece. What Kakara had in Aranfan's omake was a vision of the moment of Cynthia's recruitment.

Plainly, things are worse off there.

As the RP will eventually cross over with us and Cynthia's backstory is at Aranfan's discretion, an omake dealing with her recruitment to the Time Patrol thus warrants a "canon." Given that the vision involved Kakara trying (and failing) to react to unexpected enemies, the bonus received is in aid of that.

Andres110 said:
@PoptartProdigy, we're not taking an action on Fennella which means we're maintaining our relationship instead of deepening it. Considering that she's a Saiyan and she'll want to spar with us, will there be a decreased chance of skill rust if we fail all Warrior's Path actions this year?
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While I am considering addressing the issue of how I'm handling skill degradation, that is correct, yes.
 
Sucal said:
Speaking ss someone playing in that particular rp, I hope its more over there then over here (for the non readers baka sayian squad tend to spend most of their time trading around the sanity idiot and conflict balls... Often from post to pos)
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Yeah, I'm smart enough to realize that would be a difficult leap. It'll be a brief cross. That would be difficult to make work.
 
KnightDisciple said:
Not gonna lie, if that somehow legit became a thing I would be so happy.
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Cynthia will be begging you to teach it to her as soon as she hears of it. Or gets out of the time chamber if she registered it at the debrief. This is for the express purpose of having it become part of the Piccolo Style, as approved by Piccolo himself.
 
KnightDisciple said:
Not gonna lie, if that somehow legit became a thing I would be so happy.
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Aranfan said:
Cynthia will be begging you to teach it to her as soon as she hears of it. Or gets out of the time chamber if she registered it at the debrief. This is for the express purpose of having it become part of the Piccolo Style, as approved by Piccolo himself.
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That is hilarious. That said, much as I love that RP, we do have an OOC for it. We're probably shutting out the people who aren't in on the joke. :(
 
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