Dragon Ball: After the End

[Deathbybunnies]

The RP hasn't touched this universe. It's touched alts of this universe, but the universe this quest is set in is segregated from what they're doing.

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Sounds perfectly fine to me.


So, I've been thinking about our future Golden Oozaru style some more. By the time we start on this, we'll have learnt a significant amount of Tien Shinhan's style, and possibly even mastered it for the bonus it gives to developing our own style. As such, we'll have a style well-suited to our needs whilst not in Golden Oozaru form… so I think that the Golden Oozaru style should double down on being in Oozaru form, getting a bonus to fighting whilst larger than usual, but taking a hit whilst not larger than usual.

Style: Golden Oozaru

Involved techniques: Multi-Form (Eventually Perfect Multiform), Four Witches Technique, Hand-to-Hand [Team Fighting], Instant Transmission, Hand-to-Hand [Crowd Fighting], Ki projection techniques (that aren't slow), Everything (while significantly larger than usual)

Penalised techniques: Hand-to-Hand [Duelling], Slow-moving Ki projection techniques (like Kienzan), Everything (while not significantly larger than usual)

For those who missed my previous attempts at an involved/penalised list, I'll run through the other points of the style. Since we're investing heavily into multiform (and have plans to research Perfect Cell's Perfect Multiform eventually) our fighting style should reflect that – we will always be fighting as a team, even when we're alone. As such, the style involves Team Fighting whilst penalising Duelling, because we will never be in a one-on-one situation. The Four Witches Technique isn't penalised by our pacifism trait and should provide a nifty boost to hand-to-hand and grappling, which is important because the main weakness of the Golden Oozaru form is the drop in speed. The style seeks to mitigate this by attempting to grapple the opponent, holding them still so they can be targeted more easily. It also attempts to overcome the increased difficulty of hitting a faster opponent by focusing on huge, hard-to-dodge ki techniques, and avoids slower or smaller techniques. As such, I don't think we can really justify this style not being very good at fighting crowds of enemies, so I've involved Crowd Fighting too. Oh, and Instant Transmission seems like a very obvious choice for overcoming a speed deficit.

Anyone have any thoughts? @PoptartProdigy , does this seem reasonably balanced as a style?

 

[PoptartProdigy]

Sounds perfectly fine to me.


So, I've been thinking about our future Golden Oozaru style some more. By the time we start on this, we'll have learnt a significant amount of Tien Shinhan's style, and possibly even mastered it for the bonus it gives to developing our own style. As such, we'll have a style well-suited to our needs whilst not in Golden Oozaru form… so I think that the Golden Oozaru style should double down on being in Oozaru form, getting a bonus to fighting whilst larger than usual, but taking a hit whilst not larger than usual.

Style: Golden Oozaru

Involved techniques: Multi-Form (Eventually Perfect Multiform), Four Witches Technique, Hand-to-Hand [Team Fighting], Instant Transmission, Hand-to-Hand [Crowd Fighting], Ki projection techniques (that aren't slow), Everything (while significantly larger than usual)

Penalised techniques: Hand-to-Hand [Duelling], Slow-moving Ki projection techniques (like Kienzan), Everything (while not significantly larger than usual)

For those who missed my previous attempts at an involved/penalised list, I'll run through the other points of the style. Since we're investing heavily into multiform (and have plans to research Perfect Cell's Perfect Multiform eventually) our fighting style should reflect that – we will always be fighting as a team, even when we're alone. As such, the style involves Team Fighting whilst penalising Duelling, because we will never be in a one-on-one situation. The Four Witches Technique isn't penalised by our pacifism trait and should provide a nifty boost to hand-to-hand and grappling, which is important because the main weakness of the Golden Oozaru form is the drop in speed. The style seeks to mitigate this by attempting to grapple the opponent, holding them still so they can be targeted more easily. It also attempts to overcome the increased difficulty of hitting a faster opponent by focusing on huge, hard-to-dodge ki techniques, and avoids slower or smaller techniques. As such, I don't think we can really justify this style not being very good at fighting crowds of enemies, so I've involved Crowd Fighting too. Oh, and Instant Transmission seems like a very obvious choice for overcoming a speed deficit.

Anyone have any thoughts? @PoptartProdigy , does this seem reasonably balanced as a style?

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I do have a question: how exactly do you see this one functioning? Golden Oozaru multiforms a regular Super Saiyan Kakara, and then they tag team?

 

[Deathbybunnies]

I do have a question: how exactly do you see this one functioning? Golden Oozaru multiforms a regular Super Saiyan Kakara, and then they tag team?

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I could see it going either way on what state the multiform(s) are, perhaps depending on the situation, though obviously the regular Super Saiyan would be using a different style since they aren't the size of a building. Anyone else have a strong opinion?

 

[PoptartProdigy]

I could see it going either way on what state the multiform(s) are, perhaps depending on the situation, though obviously the regular Super Saiyan would be using a different style since they aren't the size of a building. Anyone else have a strong opinion?

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Well, that's going to be a problem; what's special about Oozaru is that it's its own body with its own power level, so if it multiforms a saiyan then it's not splitting power levels. But the SSJ boost comes from the same place, so if they both went SSJ, then the boost would be cut in half (325 million each rather than 750). The original idea was that Kakara could learn the Kaio-Ken and use that as an Oozaru given that the giant durable monkey is better able to handle the strain.

 

[Gore17]

Well, that's going to be a problem; what's special about Oozaru is that it's its own body with its own power level, so if it multiforms a saiyan then it's not splitting power levels. But the SSJ boost comes from the same place, so if they both went SSJ, then the boost would be cut in half (325 million each rather than 750). The original idea was that Kakara could learn the Kaio-Ken and use that as an Oozaru given that the giant durable monkey is better able to handle the strain.

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How would that "Perfect Multi-form" interact with the SSJ boost?

 

[PoptartProdigy]

How would that "Perfect Multi-form" interact with the SSJ boost?

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That would be fine, but it's on the other side of a years-long research project.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

Well, that's going to be a problem; what's special about Oozaru is that it's its own body with its own power level, so if it multiforms a saiyan then it's not splitting power levels. But the SSJ boost comes from the same place, so if they both went SSJ, then the boost would be cut in half (325 million each rather than 750). The original idea was that Kakara could learn the Kaio-Ken and use that as an Oozaru given that the giant durable monkey is better able to handle the strain.

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That makes sense. Until we get Perfect Multiform then, the multiform would be a regular saiyan or SSJ to get that added base to our total power level. Splitting the SSJ boost across two bodies would be less of a problem, given that we'd still be getting the bases of both bodies, and would still let us force the fight to be Team Fighting. Maybe we should include Kaio-Ken in the style, though? I had completely forgotten about that plan to be honest, but it's a good one.

How would that "Perfect Multi-form" interact with the SSJ boost?

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List of techniques used by Cell

The wiki describes it as each body having the same power level instead of splitting it, so I assumed that was what was meant.

 

[Bakkasama]

That makes sense. Until we get Perfect Multiform then, the multiform would be a regular saiyan or SSJ to get that added base to our total power level. Splitting the SSJ boost across two bodies would be less of a problem, given that we'd still be getting the bases of both bodies, and would still let us force the fight to be Team Fighting. Maybe we should include Kaio-Ken in the style, though? I had completely forgotten about that plan to be honest, but it's a good one..

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So Goku and Tien Style? That sounds kind of familiar...

Well, it is not like we want to learn it more tan having a new style but that learning already existing styles help when creating a new one and both Tien and Goku have a lot of skills that would be beneficial.

Right now, there are two things that seems like would be a good basis for our style, the fact that we are a seer and that we are a Golden Oozaru. One of those is useful for normal fights and the other for stronger opponents.

Sincé we are a seer, we can learn ki blocking which would be a huge advantage on fights. Sincé you have to hit the enemy to use it, we would want something that makes it easier to hit the enemy. For this, we can use the Four Witches technique from Tien's style, Taioken from Tien's style and Goku style strong CQC focus to neutralize them and IT to close in to them.

Then we have the Golden Oozaru. Oozaru has the advantage of huge vitality and the disadvantage of speed. Because of its huge vitality, Oozaru can better resist Kaioken which could offset its speed problema. Plus, since Tien's style also teaches to use life forcé to power attacks and Oozaru has excess of it, Kikoho and Shinkikoho are perfect for beam battles which is where Golden oozaru would be strongest. Plus IT offsets the speed problem since Dad integrated it seamessly to Goku Style.

Furthermore, with the way Oozaru works we can use multiform without it biggest issue by having one copy transform into it and the other fight normally or with kaioken.

So because of all the advantages they bring, we wanted to learn Goku and Tien so that we can use some of their involved techniques when creating a style so that we do it right the first time, along with Ki blocking and some área attacks like kiai or some aura that hurts those who come near or homing attacks. We are focusing on Tien first even though we would have a lot of bonus to learning Goku Style since Mum has Elite level teaching because Tien style gives bonus to learning Multiform if done in the same turn, which would give us extra actions.

We want to figure out what works and have some technique to integrate into it before developing a style so that we can cover for any weakness.

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We just talked about it the day the update came up and you started posting about making an Oozaru style...

List of techniques used by Cell

The wiki describes it as each body having the same power level instead of splitting it, so I assumed that was what was meant.

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You know, given that Cell is the only one who uses that variant, it could be that it is only posible if, like him, 18 and 17, the user can't run out of energy. At least that way it would make some sense.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

We just talked about it the day the update came up and you started posting about making an Oozaru style...

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Sure, I missed that line (or forgot about it). That's why the quest is a discussion, not a single-player-chooses-everything game.

You know, given that Cell is the only one who uses that variant, it could be that it is only posible if, like him, 18 and 17, the user can't run out of energy. At least that way it would make some sense.

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@PoptartProdigy said it was a viable research project, so I sincerely doubt it. (Actually, once this invasion stuff has passed, I think this would be an excellent use of our actions. Or maybe after we've progressed further into Tien style?)
EDIT: Also, the wiki defines it as: "Used by Cell during the fight with Goku in the anime only, this technique is one of Tien's. The technique creates three fighting copies of the user, and since Cell has perfected it they all possess equal power to the original."

 

[Bakkasama]

@PoptartProdigy said it was a viable research project, so I sincerely doubt it. (Actually, once this invasion stuff has passed, I think this would be an excellent use of our actions. Or maybe after we've progressed further into Tien style?)

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I would expect that perfecting our multiform would be required before creating the perfect multiform though. So quite a bit after the invasión I reckon.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

I would expect that perfecting our multiform would be required before creating the perfect multiform though. So quite a bit after the invasión I reckon.

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I don't know about required (since the skill rating system doesn't quite work by "perfecting" a technique), but I would expect that it would give some pretty massive bonuses, so yes we should wait. In fact, since the technique was originally Tien's I suspect learning his style would also give a bonus. Long-term planning though!

 

[Deathbybunnies]

I don't know about required (since the skill rating system doesn't quite work by "perfecting" a technique), but I would expect that it would give some pretty massive bonuses, so yes we should wait. In fact, since the technique was originally Tien's I suspect learning his style would also give a bonus. Long-term planning though!

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Actually...

@PoptartProdigy , since researching how to turn a regular Multiform into a Perfect Multiform would inevitably involve researching the intricacies of a regular Multiform to see what to change, would it count as training regular Multiform? Less so than normal Multiform training I imagine, but a form of training nonetheless?

 

[PoptartProdigy]

Actually...

@PoptartProdigy , since researching how to turn a regular Multiform into a Perfect Multiform would inevitably involve researching the intricacies of a regular Multiform to see what to change, would it count as training regular Multiform? Less so than normal Multiform training I imagine, but a form of training nonetheless?

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You could do both at once, I suppose, and they would synergize.

 

[Lailoken]

Sounds perfectly fine to me.


So, I've been thinking about our future Golden Oozaru style some more. By the time we start on this, we'll have learnt a significant amount of Tien Shinhan's style, and possibly even mastered it for the bonus it gives to developing our own style. As such, we'll have a style well-suited to our needs whilst not in Golden Oozaru form… so I think that the Golden Oozaru style should double down on being in Oozaru form, getting a bonus to fighting whilst larger than usual, but taking a hit whilst not larger than usual.

Style: Golden Oozaru

Involved techniques: Multi-Form (Eventually Perfect Multiform), Four Witches Technique, Hand-to-Hand [Team Fighting], Instant Transmission, Hand-to-Hand [Crowd Fighting], Ki projection techniques (that aren't slow), Everything (while significantly larger than usual)

Penalised techniques: Hand-to-Hand [Duelling], Slow-moving Ki projection techniques (like Kienzan), Everything (while not significantly larger than usual)

For those who missed my previous attempts at an involved/penalised list, I'll run through the other points of the style. Since we're investing heavily into multiform (and have plans to research Perfect Cell's Perfect Multiform eventually) our fighting style should reflect that – we will always be fighting as a team, even when we're alone. As such, the style involves Team Fighting whilst penalising Duelling, because we will never be in a one-on-one situation. The Four Witches Technique isn't penalised by our pacifism trait and should provide a nifty boost to hand-to-hand and grappling, which is important because the main weakness of the Golden Oozaru form is the drop in speed. The style seeks to mitigate this by attempting to grapple the opponent, holding them still so they can be targeted more easily. It also attempts to overcome the increased difficulty of hitting a faster opponent by focusing on huge, hard-to-dodge ki techniques, and avoids slower or smaller techniques. As such, I don't think we can really justify this style not being very good at fighting crowds of enemies, so I've involved Crowd Fighting too. Oh, and Instant Transmission seems like a very obvious choice for overcoming a speed deficit.

Anyone have any thoughts? @PoptartProdigy , does this seem reasonably balanced as a style?

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The natural style for Great Ape would seem to just be Vegetan. It is extreme aggression to the point of just blocking punches with your face to get the chance to return the favor and focuses on ranged solo combat against multiple opponents. Good for a big, slow, powerful, stupidly durable user. If we're using the full-power Golden Great Ape it's going to be because we're facing a threat which requires us to not split our pools into different bodies. I know, I know, we're theorizing about perfect multiform, but I'm reluctant to commit to investing in creating an entire style from scratch based on it until we actually have it. Since we'd be developing this after spending years mastering and updating TIen's style, we should already have it at the point of decision if we're ever going to get it.

-though I still suspect that the optimal approach is still going to end up being ignoring the Golden Great Ape pretty much entirely, and focusing on a concentrated Super-Saiyan form teamed with multi-formed Great Apes rocking Kaio-Ken x20 to make up for their power splitting without weakening the Super-Saiyan body. That's a pretty straightforward derivative of the Tien + Kaio-Ken we'd already have and would put a lot more power and flexibility on the field.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

The natural style for Great Ape would seem to just be Vegetan. It is extreme aggression to the point of just blocking punches with your face to get the chance to return the favor and focuses on ranged solo combat against multiple opponents. Good for a big, slow, powerful, stupidly durable user. If we're using the full-power Golden Great Ape it's going to be because we're facing a threat which requires us to not split our pools into different bodies. I know, I know, we're theorizing about perfect multiform, but I'm reluctant to commit to investing in creating an entire style from scratch based on it until we actually have it. Since we'd be developing this after spending years mastering and updating TIen's style, we should already have it at the point of decision if we're ever going to get it.

-though I still suspect that the optimal approach is still going to end up being ignoring the Golden Great Ape pretty much entirely, and focusing on a concentrated Super-Saiyan form teamed with multi-formed Great Apes rocking Kaio-Ken x20 to make up for their power splitting without weakening the Super-Saiyan body. That's a pretty straightforward derivative of the Tien + Kaio-Ken we'd already have and would put a lot more power and flexibility on the field.

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Both the Goku and Vegata styles penalise Team Fighting though, which we'd be doing pretty much exclusively - I think creating our own style for the form, especially with the bonus to everything for being huge, would still be a worthwhile investment over one of those two. And can a Multiform use the Kaio-Ken without any deleterious effects to the original body at all? Because if that's the case, I really wonder why the Multiform isn't seen as particularly useful in real combat with such amazing synergy with the Kaio-Ken. (Of course, it could be a classic loop of "everyone thinks the Multiform is pretty mediocre, so no-one thinks about how to use it very much.")

And while our eventual fighting style with Perfect Multiform obviously would include the Golden Oozaru, I think in the meanwhile we shouldn't ignore the morale effects on both enemies and allies alike of Kakara the Gold, strongest Saiyan warrior since the exile, on the field as her signature form of a giant glowing golden ape with a higher power level than has been seen since the exile began.

 

[Bakkasama]

Both the Goku and Vegata styles penalise Team Fighting though, which we'd be doing pretty much exclusively - I think creating our own style for the form, especially with the bonus to everything for being huge, would still be a worthwhile investment over one of those two. And can a Multiform use the Kaio-Ken without any deleterious effects to the original body at all? Because if that's the case, I really wonder why the Multiform isn't seen as particularly useful in real combat with such amazing synergy with the Kaio-Ken. (Of course, it could be a classic loop of "everyone thinks the Multiform is pretty mediocre, so no-one thinks about how to use it very much.")

And while our eventual fighting style with Perfect Multiform obviously would include the Golden Oozaru, I think in the meanwhile we shouldn't ignore the morale effects on both enemies and allies alike of Kakara the Gold, strongest Saiyan warrior since the exile, on the field as her signature form of a giant glowing golden ape with a higher power level than has been seen since the exile began.

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I think you got a bit confused with the kaioken/multiform thing. If without multiform you can sustain up to kaiokenx3 then your multiforms can likely sustain up to kaiokenx3, even if they have lower power levels. So you could use kaioken to have three of you at your normal power level but it would be more effective to have one of you at thrice your power level, specialy since kaioken doesn't last that long.

However, Oozaru can sustain it better and has a different power source. So if you use multiform to have two of you and one turns Oozaru, that one has the PL of Oozaru and the other of your normal form (and if you had two oozaru each would have half its power level). The super saiyan boost is also Split across the multiform. However, if only the one who is in saiyan forms turns super saiyan while the Oozaru uses kaioken then you have a FPSS and an Oozaru with a PL in its same league. THAT was our original plan when we mastered great ape. Multiform has a great sinergy with Oozaru and kaioken only enters in the equation when those two are used together since having a handful more fighter your PL for a littl while is not as useful as adding one stronger fighter.

The key here is how much kaioken lasts. If you used it only with multiform, you would have more fighters but because of the strain only for a bit and the original would also be weakened. Oozaru makes it last longer and if you use only 1 of them it is the same as adding an extra fighter at almost no cost. Kaioken would only increase the strenght of the extra one in our case since the normal one has super saiyan, which causes less strain.

 

[Lailoken]

Both the Goku and Vegata styles penalise Team Fighting though, which we'd be doing pretty much exclusively - I think creating our own style for the form, especially with the bonus to everything for being huge, would still be a worthwhile investment over one of those two. And can a Multiform use the Kaio-Ken without any deleterious effects to the original body at all? Because if that's the case, I really wonder why the Multiform isn't seen as particularly useful in real combat with such amazing synergy with the Kaio-Ken. (Of course, it could be a classic loop of "everyone thinks the Multiform is pretty mediocre, so no-one thinks about how to use it very much.")

And while our eventual fighting style with Perfect Multiform obviously would include the Golden Oozaru, I think in the meanwhile we shouldn't ignore the morale effects on both enemies and allies alike of Kakara the Gold, strongest Saiyan warrior since the exile, on the field as her signature form of a giant glowing golden ape with a higher power level than has been seen since the exile began.

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I'm not too worried about team-fighting if we're going with a Golden Great Ape. Her role is to be an individual champion, there are really only three other people on the planet who can contribute very much in a team fight, and they all seem to have specialized as individual champions for the same reason. If we're using Golden Great Ape without a perfect multiform which completely copies everything we're not going to be using multiform to team-fight either.

Kaio-ken is hard and dangerous. It takes a lot of effort to master, and even then it's a last-resort which most sensible people would only use with immediate intent to kill in actual mortal combat. Goku was exceptional in getting to the point of being almost casual about it. There probably aren't very many extremists who consider it worth learning in the same way that there aren't a lot of humans who learn combat trapezing, much less incorporate it as a foundation of a novel style which represents the majority of their fighting ability and pretty much demands an immediately lethal and unrestrained approach to have any practical use. Most Heads don't even max out their base forms, and anyone who isn't a head starts getting hard questions if they get close to that. A style betting heavily on multiform + Kaio-ken would set off a lot of alarm bells because it doesn't have any legitimate use in the society for anyone but a lord or potentially a head, and the lords have better options in the generally incompatible Super-Saiyan state.

Great Ape makes that a bit easier, but Great Ape is itself something which isn't widely developed and which is a bit of a niche application for most everybody considering its own downsides, the head-and-lord-enforcement alternative to personal combat against the sort of foe dangerous enough to require it, and the masquerade.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

I think you got a bit confused with the kaioken/multiform thing. If without multiform you can sustain up to kaiokenx3 then your multiforms can likely sustain up to kaiokenx3, even if they have lower power levels. So you could use kaioken to have three of you at your normal power level but it would be more effective to have one of you at thrice your power level, specialy since kaioken doesn't last that long.

However, Oozaru can sustain it better and has a different power source. So if you use multiform to have two of you and one turns Oozaru, that one has the PL of Oozaru and the other of your normal form (and if you had two oozaru each would have half its power level). The super saiyan boost is also Split across the multiform. However, if only the one who is in saiyan forms turns super saiyan while the Oozaru uses kaioken then you have a FPSS and an Oozaru with a PL in its same league. THAT was our original plan when we mastered great ape. Multiform has a great sinergy with Oozaru and kaioken only enters in the equation when those two are used together since having a handful more fighter your PL for a littl while is not as useful as adding one stronger fighter.

The key here is how much kaioken lasts. If you used it only with multiform, you would have more fighters but because of the strain only for a bit and the original would also be weakened. Oozaru makes it last longer and if you use only 1 of them it is the same as adding an extra fighter at almost no cost. Kaioken would only increase the strenght of the extra one in our case since the normal one has super saiyan, which causes less strain.

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That all makes perfect sense, but one of the main drawbacks of the Kaio-Ken is the massive strain it puts on your body, leading to self-injury. Lail's comment read like we could Kaio-Ken our extra body (or bodies)
without causing massive lasting damage to our "real" body. So where we could "safely" perhaps use Kaio-Ken x2 on our real body, we could use Kaio-Ken x 10 on our extra bodies, because long-term catastrophic internal damage wouldn't matter after we dispersed them.

Also, side-note: in a world where stronger fighters have been explicitly noted to be beatable by groups of weaker fighters, I'm not sure if a single stronger fighter is better than multiple weaker fighters, but you might have noted some earlier discussion I missed on the subject.

I'm not too worried about team-fighting if we're going with a Golden Great Ape. Her role is to be an individual champion, there are really only three other people on the planet who can contribute very much in a team fight, and they all seem to have specialized as individual champions for the same reason. If we're using Golden Great Ape without a perfect multiform which completely copies everything we're not going to be using multiform to team-fight either.

Kaio-ken is hard and dangerous. It takes a lot of effort to master, and even then it's a last-resort which most sensible people would only use with immediate intent to kill in actual mortal combat. Goku was exceptional in getting to the point of being almost casual about it. There probably aren't very many extremists who consider it worth learning in the same way that there aren't a lot of humans who learn combat trapezing, much less incorporate it as a foundation of a novel style which represents the majority of their fighting ability and pretty much demands an immediately lethal and unrestrained approach to have any practical use. Most Heads don't even max out their base forms, and anyone who isn't a head starts getting hard questions if they get close to that. A style betting heavily on multiform + Kaio-ken would set off a lot of alarm bells because it doesn't have any legitimate use in the society for anyone but a lord or potentially a head, and the lords have better options in the generally incompatible Super-Saiyan state.

Great Ape makes that a bit easier, but Great Ape is itself something which isn't widely developed and which is a bit of a niche application for most everybody considering its own downsides, the head-and-lord-enforcement alternative to personal combat against the sort of foe dangerous enough to require it, and the masquerade.

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But with Multiform allowing us to use both our Saiyan base and our Oozaru base, surely we would try to have at least one Multiform up at all times in a fight, for a greater total Power Level? Not only is it an extra 375 million we wouldn't otherwise have, but it allows us to force the fight to be a Team Fight, where (assuming we don't have a penalty, or even have a bonus) we would be at an advantage, and also effectively be forcing the opponent to treat the combat situation as Crowd Fighting (which just as an example, would deny Berra his massive bonus to Duelling as a Goku stylist). Without it, we have to split our training between duelling and Team Fighting; with it, we can focus entirely on Team Fighting without any drawbacks.

And those alarm bells don't apply to us - we're the Scion, we are literally training to be a Lord, in a time when the Masquerade is threatened by hostile forces of unknown strength.

 

[Sucal]

And those alarm bells don't apply to us - we're the Scion, we are literally training to be a Lord, in a time when the Masquerade is threatened by hostile forces of unknown strength.

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Try learning Freeza style with that reasoning where that gets you. (There's a reason why its part of my plan 'fuck da world').

We already for all intents and purposes the single strongest person on the planet, save for when Berra goes 'death or glory Kaio-Ken Golden oozaru'. Rather then rushing out for unstable Enemy attracting power, we should be working on maximising every scrap we've got, perhaps with that Seer Ki sight/sealing

 

[Lailoken]

That all makes perfect sense, but one of the main drawbacks of the Kaio-Ken is the massive strain it puts on your body, leading to self-injury. Lail's comment read like we could Kaio-Ken our extra body (or bodies)
without causing massive lasting damage to our "real" body. So where we could "safely" perhaps use Kaio-Ken x2 on our real body, we could use Kaio-Ken x 10 on our extra bodies, because long-term catastrophic internal damage wouldn't matter after we dispersed them.

Also, side-note: in a world where stronger fighters have been explicitly noted to be beatable by groups of weaker fighters, I'm not sure if a single stronger fighter is better than multiple weaker fighters, but you might have noted some earlier discussion I missed on the subject.


But with Multiform allowing us to use both our Saiyan base and our Oozaru base, surely we would try to have at least one Multiform up at all times in a fight, for a greater total Power Level? Not only is it an extra 375 million we wouldn't otherwise have, but it allows us to force the fight to be a Team Fight, where (assuming we don't have a penalty, or even have a bonus) we would be at an advantage, and also effectively be forcing the opponent to treat the combat situation as Crowd Fighting (which just as an example, would deny Berra his massive bonus to Duelling as a Goku stylist). Without it, we have to split our training between duelling and Team Fighting; with it, we can focus entirely on Team Fighting without any drawbacks.

And those alarm bells don't apply to us - we're the Scion, we are literally training to be a Lord, in a time when the Masquerade is threatened by hostile forces of unknown strength.

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Oh, certainly, but in that case it isn't a Golden Great Ape. The Super-Saiyan ki pool is one pool. If you use it on the Great Ape it isn't available on the base form and vice-versa, hence why I suspect we'll get better results from using it on the base form and then exploiting multi-form and the Great Ape's natural durability to spam high-multiple Kaio-Kens it couldn't use in Golden Great Ape form. If we're going down this route the Tien style we're already mastering is just fine. I thought you were talking about developing a style around Golden Great Ape specifically, which requires excluding anything beyond perhaps a puny baseline body with no Super-Saiyan enhancement and drastically limited Kaio-ken capabilities.

 

[Andres]

You know, given that Cell is the only one who uses that variant, it could be that it is only posible if, like him, 18 and 17, the user can't run out of energy.

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I don't think Cell had infinite energy. When he ate the senzu bean we saw his energy flare up, like he was recovering it. I think we might've also seen him out of breath, something that we didn't see from 17 when he fought Piccolo.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

Try learning Freeza style with that reasoning where that gets you. (There's a reason why its part of my plan 'fuck da world').

We already for all intents and purposes the single strongest person on the planet, save for when Berra goes 'death or glory Kaio-Ken Golden oozaru'. Rather then rushing out for unstable Enemy attracting power, we should be working on maximising every scrap we've got, perhaps with that Seer Ki sight/sealing

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Freeza style is both explicitly as lethal as possible (to the point where practitioners have great trouble using it non-lethally) and thought of as honouring one of the worst tyrants ever to exist in the galaxy. The two aren't even remotely comparable. And not only is Berra exactly who we're worrying about in the quasi-near future, but we, again, have hostile alien forces coming that we need to not just beat but crush so thoroughly that not a single survivor or message gets through. His point was that if you're not a Lord there's no point in being that strong, and SS has been thought of as incompatible with Oozaru and thus not worth it. Well, we're going to be a Lady, and we've proven that the two are not in fact incompatible.

I'm totally up for investigating Ki sealing when we get to practitioner level of Seer, though. That sounds like an excellent choice for a grappling pacifist.

Oh, certainly, but in that case it isn't a Golden Great Ape. The Super-Saiyan ki pool is one pool. If you use it on the Great Ape it isn't available on the base form and vice-versa, hence why I suspect we'll get better results from using it on the base form and then exploiting multi-form and the Great Ape's natural durability to spam high-multiple Kaio-Kens it couldn't use in Golden Great Ape form. If we're going down this route the Tien style we're already mastering is just fine. I thought you were talking about developing a style around Golden Great Ape specifically, which requires excluding anything beyond perhaps a puny baseline body with no Super-Saiyan enhancement and drastically limited Kaio-ken capabilities.

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I'm arguing that the bonuses from Involving Team Fighting (where instead of sometimes Team Fighting and sometimes duelling we are always team fighting) and Being Huge would be worth it in the future (though not the immediate future, and probably not until after we've heavily invested into Tien style) and absolutely worth it over going Goku or Vegeta. The SS ki pool can be split between the two any way we want, and after this discussion I'm aiming more for an Oozaru style that would work equally well with Golden paired with a regular saiyan or a regular Oozaru paired with a FPSSJ, and in the future with Perfect Multiform would definitely work for the Golden bodies. I guess we could just call it Oozaru style? It doesn't quite have the same "oomph"...

I don't think Cell had infinite energy. When he ate the senzu bean we saw his energy flare up, like he was recovering it. I think we might've also seen him out of breath, something that we didn't see from 17 when he fought Piccolo.

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On the other hand, pretty much every DBZ character is capable of Ex-Nihilo energy generation

 

[Bakkasama]

That all makes perfect sense, but one of the main drawbacks of the Kaio-Ken is the massive strain it puts on your body, leading to self-injury. Lail's comment read like we could Kaio-Ken our extra body (or bodies)
without causing massive lasting damage to our "real" body. So where we could "safely" perhaps use Kaio-Ken x2 on our real body, we could use Kaio-Ken x 10 on our extra bodies, because long-term catastrophic internal damage wouldn't matter after we dispersed them.

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I see what you mean but look at it this way: If you used Multiform and then the clone used kaiokenx10 since the damage wouldn't kill the original, one of the following scenarios would happen: Either the clone would not have the level of skill to use the kaiokenx10, in which case it would die instantly without doing damage to the enemy and you would lose half your power level over nothing or it could indeed have the skill to pull it off and, since it had half your power level, fight at the level of a kaiokenx5 while requiring the skill to maintain and suffering the damage of a kaiokenx10. In which case, it would be better not to perform multiform and fight directly with a kaiokenx5 since it would require a lower skill check, it would likely fight longer and it would give the same result. If you want to use them as disposable bodies for kaioken, you have to know it would survive long enough to fight at those levels in which case you would survive fighting at half the boost with the same resulting PL, in which case the gambit is pointless.

Also, side-note: in a world where stronger fighters have been explicitly noted to be beatable by groups of weaker fighters, I'm not sure if a single stronger fighter is better than multiple weaker fighters, but you might have noted some earlier discussion I missed on the subject.

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Stronger fighters can be beaten by large groups of weaker fighters (unless one is Endivan). However, it is extremely unlikely that two fighters could beat someone whose power level is the same as both of them combined unless they have a technique like Mafuba. In the case of multiform, the number of weaker fighters that it gives are not enough to overcome the fighter they Split from, since the more fighters you make the weaker they become.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

I see what you mean but look at it this way: If you used Multiform and then the clone used kaiokenx10 since the damage wouldn't kill the original, one of the following scenarios would happen: Either the clone would not have the level of skill to use the kaiokenx10, in which case it would die instantly without doing damage to the enemy and you would lose half your power level over nothing or it could indeed have the skill to pull it off and, since it had half your power level, fight at the level of a kaiokenx5 while requiring the skill to maintain and suffering the damage of a kaiokenx10. In which case, it would be better not to perform multiform and fight directly with a kaiokenx5 since it would require a lower skill check, it would likely fight longer and it would give the same result.

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The clones always have our level of skill, they just have a lower power level. And when a clone dies it's no longer "using" that power level, so our remaining bodies can power up by that amount. Having a clone perform the Kaio-Ken at x10 is safer than having our regular body perform the Kaio-Ken at x5 if the damage disappears when the clone disappears. And the whole point of the Oozaru/Regular FPSSJ split is that the Oozaru's PL is entire seperate from the FPSSJ's PL, so the main body doesn't lose anything by creating one.

If you want to use them as disposable bodies for kaioken, you have to know it would survive long enough to fight at those levels in which case you would survive fighting at half the boost with the same resulting PL, in which case the gambit is pointless.

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Not true, it is possible to perform a Kaio-Ken, survive the fight, and then be crippled/die from massive internal damage after the fight. This precludes that.

Stronger fighters can be beaten by large groups of weaker fighters (unless one is Endivan). However, it is extremely unlikely that two fighters could beat someone whose power level is the same as both of them combined unless they have a technique like Mafuba. In the case of multiform, the number of weaker fighters that it gives are not enough to overcome the fighter they Split from, since the more fighters you make the weaker they become.

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We have no way of knowing this? Unless you're drawing purely from the anime, in which case I'd point out that the mechanics system of the quest by necessity does not copy the anime, since the anime obviously has no formal mechanics. In the anime, Endivan or a group of lower-strength fighters beating a tougher opponent would pretty much never happen.

 

[Lailoken]

Freeza style is both explicitly as lethal as possible (to the point where practitioners have great trouble using it non-lethally) and thought of as honouring one of the worst tyrants ever to exist in the galaxy. The two aren't even remotely comparable. And not only is Berra exactly who we're worrying about in the quasi-near future, but we, again, have hostile alien forces coming that we need to not just beat but crush so thoroughly that not a single survivor or message gets through. His point was that if you're not a Lord there's no point in being that strong, and SS has been thought of as incompatible with Oozaru and thus not worth it. Well, we're going to be a Lady, and we've proven that the two are not in fact incompatible.

I'm totally up for investigating Ki sealing when we get to practitioner level of Seer, though. That sounds like an excellent choice for a grappling pacifist.


I'm arguing that the bonuses from Involving Team Fighting (where instead of sometimes Team Fighting and sometimes duelling we are always team fighting) and Being Huge would be worth it in the future (though not the immediate future, and probably not until after we've heavily invested into Tien style) and absolutely worth it over going Goku or Vegeta. The SS ki pool can be split between the two any way we want, and after this discussion I'm aiming more for an Oozaru style that would work equally well with Golden paired with a regular saiyan or a regular Oozaru paired with a FPSSJ, and in the future with Perfect Multiform would definitely work for the Golden bodies. I guess we could just call it Oozaru style? It doesn't quite have the same "oomph"...


On the other hand, pretty much every DBZ character is capable of Ex-Nihilo energy generation

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Keep in mind that using Super-Saiyan in the Ape Form dramatically reduces its ability to bear Kaio-Ken, hence why I'd rather have a Super-Saiyan base form + Kaio-Ken x20 Apes. I don't know how it will interact with partial splits of the Super-Saiyan ki pool, but I'd guess non-linearly. If we have the Kaio-ken available we probably shouldn't be using any Super-Saiyan ki in the apes at all, in which case multiple Super-Saiyan base forms + multiple Kaio-Ken apes works fine with the Tien grappling style I've been suggesting. The only reason to develop a form specifically for Golden Great Ape appears to be if we need the single most densely concentrated form we can muster and no multiforms, in which case the Vegeta form seems to work.