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Keep in mind that using Super-Saiyan in the Ape Form dramatically reduces its ability to bear Kaio-Ken, hence why I'd rather have a Super-Saiyan base form + Kaio-Ken x20 Apes. I don't know how it will interact with partial splits of the Super-Saiyan ki pool, but I'd guess non-linearly. If we have the Kaio-ken available we probably shouldn't be using any Super-Saiyan ki in the apes at all, in which case multiple Super-Saiyan base forms + multiple Kaio-Ken apes works fine with the Tien grappling style I've been suggesting. The only reason to develop a form specifically for Golden Great Ape appears to be if we need the single most densely concentrated form we can muster and no multiforms, in which case the Vegeta form seems to work.
I would still prefer an Oozaru style based around Being Huge and Team Fighting, but assuming that replacing the bodies mid-combat is still a problem at higher Multiform levels (though I'd hope that would also improve), Golden Kaio-Ken x 20 Oozaru are probably not worth it if their lifespan is that short. We'll leave further discussion about a Golden Oozaru style until we start working on Perfect Multiform then, unless anyone else wants to chime in one way or the other?

EDIT: Style, not form.
 
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I wouldn't have put it quite that strongly, but I am having a hard time justifying the investment. One of the advantages of the Tien derivative base is that it already provides balance, flexibility, and team-fighting skills to cover whatever form and quantity of bodies we need it to. It has an extremely powerful attack with a built-in zoom lens to turn the apes into artillery pieces.
 
I wouldn't have put it quite that strongly, but I am having a hard time justifying the investment. One of the advantages of the Tien derivative base is that it already provides balance, flexibility, and team-fighting skills to cover whatever form and quantity of bodies we need it to. It has an extremely powerful attack with a built-in zoom lens to turn the apes into artillery pieces.
Well this was only ever going to be a long-term plan, given that a whole bunch of fighting is going to happen in the near future and that we were going to delay making the style until having mastered another style anyway. I just liked the idea of building a style that would play to the Oozaru form's strengths, having a boost to everything by virtue of being huge, and having a style specifically Involving Team Fighting given our investments into Multiform - the battle would always be on our terms.

Wasn't there something about successfully combining Kaio-Ken and Super Saiyan in Super recently? Something to look into, regardless of style choices.
 
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The clones always have our level of skill, they just have a lower power level. And when a clone dies it's no longer "using" that power level, so our remaining bodies can power up by that amount. Having a clone perform the Kaio-Ken at x10 is safer than having our regular body perform the Kaio-Ken at x5 if the damage disappears when the clone disappears. And the whole point of the Oozaru/Regular FPSSJ split is that the Oozaru's PL is entire seperate from the FPSSJ's PL, so the main body doesn't lose anything by creating one.
Erm... that is not quite the case, actually. If the clone dies you lose that ki, you only get it back if you reassimilate it. So if kaiokenx10 risks the clone blowing up then it is worse than kaiokenx5 without it. And if it doesn't die but it still is damaged then the clone would lose ki which we wouldn't recover until after we rest.

On an unrelated note, did you ever work out what happens if you use Multiform and one or more of the yous is/are wounded/killed?
Oh yeah. The clone loses PL as normal and when it gets reassimilated you only get back whatever it has left. If it dies, you lose it for good.

EDIT: BY WHICH I MEAN YOU NEED TO WAIT FOR IT TO RECHARGE

We have no way of knowing this? Unless you're drawing purely from the anime, in which case I'd point out that the mechanics system of the quest by necessity does not copy the anime, since the anime obviously has no formal mechanics. In the anime, Endivan or a group of lower-strength fighters beating a tougher opponent would pretty much never happen.
I extrapolate from comments in the thread. The point was that large group of fighter could beat a stronger one but with few of them is not quite as feasible. Part of it is that, for the BoD system, a fight is considered hopeless if there is a 20% difference or more between power level on a one on one fight. With the power difference we are talking about with multiform (two fighters vs one in which the two are each half as strong as the other) the power difference is enough that he could pretty much kill one of them fast enough for it to count as one on one.

If you want a more specific example, then I would direct you to the post in which @PoptartProdigy talks about the contingencies there are in case someone goes super saiyan 2.
I wasn't actually talking about USSJ as a feasible means of having a stand-up fight with an SSJ2 -- it isn't, not remotely in a single-fighter duel -- just clarifying how it works.

Bear in mind, I'm not talking about this being the only plan that works. This is one plan. It can work, because there's more than one Super Saiyan to chew through at any one time, everybody else knows to move immediately in this circumstance, and they all, base Saiyans included, are at, "traverse a planet in seconds," speeds. But it's not the only one that can work, it's not even the first one that would be tried, and it's not one that's terribly likely to work. I was using it as an example of something that can work, as a means of demonstrating that base Saiyans are not something that can be safely ignored in sufficient quantities.

Another one would be if a Super Saiyan 1 provoked the Super Saiyan 2 into a beam struggle, and then powered up somehow. Perhaps with USSJ, perhaps with the Kaio-Ken. Either way, at that point they'd be too strong for the enemy to safely turn aside -- even if just for a moment -- and they could hold out for long enough for the rest of the regular Super Saiyans to join in. And then a normal Saiyan could join in. And then another. And then maybe the ten thousand or so Oozaru who've trained to their absolute limits. And another base Saiyan, and another, and another, until all the attacks going into it were enough to take out the Super Saiyan 2.

Or a group of normal Saiyans go Oozaru and stall. They'd all die, but they would die slow enough to buy time, given that the form optimizes for durability and raw power. That would be enough time for at least two Super Saiyans to arrive, and they definitely could stall long enough to buy the other Super Saiyans and hordes of base Saiyans time to arrive.

Or the Super Saiyan 2 could get cocky, pick a fight with three thousand Saiyans as they held a party in the Training Hall, and miss just one single Kienzan in the middle of the storm of blasts being thrown at them.

Now, all of these have obvious failure points, but they all can succeed as well. They have the noted issue of going up against a monstrously strong opponent, but they're not totally infeasible. Most especially because -- remember -- we're not using the typically-accepted model of Super Saiyan forms being multiplicative. For my ease of use we're on BOD-standard, which holds them to be additive, and so SSJ2 doesn't multiply base strength by x100. It does double the Super Saiyan boost from FPSSJ by 2, but only the boost, not base power, so a Super Saiyan 2 who's just transformed for the first time isn't even twice as strong as a FPSSJ. They are decisively, even overwhelmingly stronger, and the transformation removes limits and allows even greater strength over the long term, but in the short term of the first transformation, which nobody on the planet could possibly miss, they're not to the point where they can take out one FPSSJ quickly enough to stop a second showing up picoseconds later, and then a third. Given that there are up to six Full-Powered Super Saiyans on Garenhuld at any given time, this adds up. And if they can stall for the heartbeat it would take to marshal the horde of base Saiyans -- which is likely -- the SSJ2 would have to contend with that. And by the math, you only need to muster a thousand Saiyans out of three hundred thousand to overcome a Super Saiyan 2.

Now, the SSJ2 could know Instant Transmission. They could also not. But for what that exact reason, there's never a time when there are no Scions, Lords, or ex-Lords capable of the same move, and it's impossible to hide that ki signature. At that point, it becomes a game of endurance. Who runs out of ki first: the pentet/sextet of people who can stay in their transformations all day because they've mastered them, or the one who just got their transformation and has had all of their progress on endurance training nullified because of it? They can't drop out of it -- six Super Saiyans pinging the planet with their full power will find nearly anything, and if the SSJ2 starts dropping their ki to hide, they abruptly become a squishy mortal for a window that is just big enough for the Super Saiyans to IT in and vaporize them in the moment of being strong enough to sense, but weak enough to be helpless.

Or, in the first three seconds of the engagement, the SSJ2 wipes out the Super Saiyans, and then vaporizes any base Saiyans that show up until the planet decides to collectively surrender.

My ultimate point is that a fight between an SSJ2 and a planet of million-unit-plus fighters is an uncertain prospect, enough so that the Lords are willing to throw their entire population into the meat grinder for the slightest hope of slowing the enemy down. They have many plans, all revolving around nullifying the speed advantage in order to bring the collective might of the Exiles to bear, which adds up swiftly. One of them always knows IT. One always knows the Kaio-Ken. All of them learn USSJ at some point if only so they can contest a beam struggle for long enough to get reinforcements. And yes, most of the plans bank on being able to provoke the enemy into unwise action, which is not as foolhardy as it sounds given that the transformation is -- quite literally and exactly -- legendarily hard to remain in control of. And all of this, these literal centuries of preparation and planning, have given them...maybe a forty percent chance of victory. Fifty, at a stretch. Given that they need to concentrate strength and quickly, they are at an inherent disadvantage given that you can't concentrate strength down any farther than a single person.

The reason I'm hitting the ways they could win so hard when they're technically in the minority is because I want to make it clear that we don't just say, "no, not possible," and go home. I want to privilege and reward clever thinking in this quest, and making clear that brute strength can be overcome is the biggest way to do that. Not that any means of doing so are without cost -- but they exist. Even if you take no clever plan and simply order your people to fill the skies with ki blasts so that there's nowhere to dodge, that will add up -- each one will only scratch the SSJ2, but there are over three hundred thousand scratches being fired at any given time, if you martial everybody, multiple times per second.

Not that that has a higher chance of success than perhaps five whole, shiny percentage points. But again, it's a way.

In this case, a newly turn super saiyan 2 would be a bit weaker tan twice the power level of a FPSS. However, while FPSS might certainly stall them, you will notice that if the fight were just 2 FPSS vs a SS2 then they would have very bad odds and the difference in power, as a percentage, would be lower than two multiform clones versus the original. Sure, they could get lucky, but that doesn't change the fact that one fighter with twice the power level would have better chance tan two fighters.

This doesn't mean that it is useless but that merely using it for a two against one is suboptimal. The ideal use in that case is to either use it when there are multiple weaker opponents to avoid being surrounded that easily or for a large group to use it en masse so that they can flow the space with extra deadly, if weaker than normal attacks such as kienzan or kikoho, so that they keep the enemy in place for more reinforcements to arrive.
 
Erm... that is not quite the case, actually. If the clone dies you lose that ki, you only get it back if you reassimilate it. So if kaiokenx10 risks the clone blowing up then it is worse than kaiokenx5 without it. And if it doesn't die but it still is damaged then the clone would lose ki which we wouldn't recover until after we rest.

Ah, here we have another example of some players knowing more about the system than others, by virtue of having been in the relevant discussions. Thanks! Though I'd still note that with one body as a FPSSJ and another as an Oozaru, neither body can use the other's PL, so it's not risking being left with a weaker body (though it is risking no longer having 2 bodies in the fight.) I concede the point, but note that this wouldn't make sense for Perfect Multiform - you might be locked out of making another body for a while, but you never lost PL in the first place.

I extrapolate from comments in the thread. The point was that large group of fighter could beat a stronger one but with few of them is not quite as feasible. Part of it is that, for the BoD system, a fight is considered hopeless if there is a 20% difference or more between power level on a one on one fight. With the power difference we are talking about with multiform (two fighters vs one in which the two are each half as strong as the other) the power difference is enough that he could pretty much kill one of them fast enough for it to count as one on one.

If you want a more specific example, then I would direct you to the post in which @PoptartProdigy talks about the contingencies there are in case someone goes super saiyan 2.

In this case, a newly turn super saiyan 2 would be a bit weaker tan twice the power level of a FPSS. However, while FPSS might certainly stall them, you will notice that if the fight were just 2 FPSS vs a SS2 then they would have very bad odds and the difference in power, as a percentage, would be lower than two multiform clones versus the original. Sure, they could get lucky, but that doesn't change the fact that one fighter with twice the power level would have better chance tan two fighters.

This doesn't mean that it is useless but that merely using it for a two against one is suboptimal. The ideal use in that case is to either use it when there are multiple weaker opponents to avoid being surrounded that easily or for a large group to use it en masse so that they can flow the space with extra deadly, if weaker than normal attacks such as kienzan or kikoho, so that they keep the enemy in place for more reinforcements to arrive.
Again, I would love it if this was under "Useful Information" at the start, and again I concede the point. Thanks for explaining!

EDIT: Switched up my answers a little, was replying to the wrong part at one point.
 
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I don't know the mechanics, so maybe this just doesn't work, but it seems to me like Multiform + Instant Transmission + being good at tactics should be pretty good, in principle? IT allows for coordinating attacks really well, as well as for rapidly retreating and/or concentrating firepower to ameliorate the defeat-in-detail problem.
 
@PoptartProdigy

If a multiform clone dies, you said we only lose the power we put into the clone. What happens if the clone is damaged but not killed? Can we use a clone to practise kaioken and super-saiyin kaioken without permanent damage? The split in power would even let us use higher levels for the latter without being discovered.
 
@PoptartProdigy

If a multiform clone dies, you said we only lose the power we put into the clone. What happens if the clone is damaged but not killed? Can we use a clone to practise kaioken and super-saiyin kaioken without permanent damage? The split in power would even let us use higher levels for the latter without being discovered.
An injured clone loses ki as normal for a saiyan of their power level. Upon reforming, the person gets back whatever ki their clones still had. So if one person splits four ways and all four clones get precisely half of their shit beaten out of them, upon reformation that person will be at half strength.
 
An injured clone loses ki as normal for a saiyan of their power level. Upon reforming, the person gets back whatever ki their clones still had. So if one person splits four ways and all four clones get precisely half of their shit beaten out of them, upon reformation that person will be at half strength.
I'm asking, if a clone gets it's hand cut off what effect will that have upon reformation? To be clear, you're saying despite the injury only power level go down and no other effects of the injury be there.

EDIT: So using clones to practise damaging techniques like Kaioken is viable? Would that make training the technique easier? As we'll have to be less cautious compared to other learners.

EDIT2: btw, does Kaioken fall under Ki Prodigy? Since it requires Ki control to master.
 
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I'm asking, if a clone gets it's hand cut off what effect will that have upon reformation? To be clear, you're saying despite the injury only power level go down and no other effects of the injury be there.

EDIT: So using clones to practise damaging techniques like Kaioken is viable? Would that make training the technique easier? As we'll have to be less cautious compared to other learners.

EDIT2: btw, does Kaioken fall under Ki Prodigy? Since it requires Ki control to master.
If a clone's hand gets cut off, than the reformed person will be injured, but they won't be short a limb. Practicing damaging techniques is viable given that the injury is isolated to a smaller portion of your ki pool. It does fall under Ki Prodigy.
 
Practicing damaging techniques is viable given that the injury is isolated to a smaller portion of your ki pool.
Something to think about for when we get more clones. Greater the division, the lesser the damage and the greater the risk we can take.
It does fall under Ki Prodigy.
Is Jaffur's style based upon Kaioken? Since both sort of enhance ki based on Ki Control and he knows that.
 
Jaffur has shown that one can do kaioken and super saiyan at the same time (even though it is incredibly unwise) and Berra has been trained to do such in case of super saiyan 2 appearing. Sincé Oozaru can handle kaioken better, it might be possible to use it with Golden Oozaru.

Too bad we can't train that. Wards would snap if we did.
 
Too bad we can't train that. Wards would snap if we did.
*Looks at Multiform questions just two posts up*

Multiform splits power, so we can train without straining the wards and it divides the final damage from training as well making it less suicidal. First we train Golden Oozaru Full Power and Kaioken Oozaru times Max, then we move on to Golden Oozaru Full Power Kaioken.
 
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*Looks at Multiform questions just two posts up*

Multiform splits power, so we can train without straining the wards and it divides the final damage from training as well making it less suicidal. First we train Golden Oozaru Full Power and Kaioken Oozaru times Max, then we move on to Golden Oozaru Full Power Kaioken.
... Huh, would that divide our power enough that we could try SS2 without breaking the wards?
 
... Huh, would that divide our power enough that we could try SS2 without breaking the wards?
Already asked. We can train SS2 with that, but to initially activate it we need to be Single-Form.

Though I'd like to point out, Oozaru is a max boost of twice the power from base from and Maximum Kaioken is X20 over that I think. While less than super saiyin, it's still comparable and more importantly can be used at the same time due to multiform.

Imagine a Kakara at Super-Saiyin with X50 base power riding an Oozaru with X40 base power.


EDIT: Wrong argument. Super Saiyin is a base addition of 750 million power. Oozaru form is a base PL of 750 million. Kaioken is a multiplier and a single x2 boost should be equal to Golden Oozaru. When we go into higher level boosts we outright surpass the super saiyin transformations.

Super Saiyin 2 increases our max base power and this boosts the kaioken technique as well. More importantly, with multiform, we can train Kaioken to a higher level without hurting the wards unlike with Super Saiyin.

This means with training we can be prepared to beat down a new-born super saiyin 2 if we have to.

tldr Kaioken is awesome, and we have to learn it.

Also, a reason why Lords may not have mastered Kaioken to that level is probably because they never thought of dividing their PL with Multiform. Since without dividing PL x4 boost would probably break the wards.
 
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Multiform also decreases the clones' endurance by the same amount as their power level is divided, so a clone will get just as damaged by kaioken as a whole person.
 
Multiform also decreases the clones' endurance by the same amount as their power level is divided, so a clone will get just as damaged by kaioken as a whole person.
I haven't said anything about the clones being able to use Kaioken longer.

The point is that after the clones combine, the damage will be divided. 1 damaged clone + 1 undamaged clone = 1/2 damaged person. The more no. of clones we have the lesser the final damage and the easier we recover from it. More importantly, the damage is isn't that much or no one would ever train Kaioken, it's just easier this way. We mostly just need it because our PL is too high to really get to higher levels without cracking wards.

It's mostly a matter of reducing any risk, and honestly? The reward is well worth it. A Full Power Kaioken User is 5 times stronger than a Full Power Super Saiyin user when both have max base power level and the Kaioken scales with base power. In terms of power ups, it's only surpassed by SSBlue. If we have the option to use any of the other Super Saiyin forms, a fully trained Kaioken is a superior alternative.

It can also boost the power of our clones equally, unlike SSJ which is divided among the clones.

The less damage simply makes training Super Saiyin Kaioken more viable.

Plus, the damage is mitigated even more given the fact that we can train in Oozaru form which explicitly has a greater resilience, and the fact that we're saiyins. What doesn't kill us literally makes us stronger. Even if we can't actually get stronger the healing ability should be there.
 
An injured clone loses ki as normal for a saiyan of their power level. Upon reforming, the person gets back whatever ki their clones still had. So if one person splits four ways and all four clones get precisely half of their shit beaten out of them, upon reformation that person will be at half strength.

If a clone's hand gets cut off, than the reformed person will be injured, but they won't be short a limb. Practicing damaging techniques is viable given that the injury is isolated to a smaller portion of your ki pool. It does fall under Ki Prodigy.

This has kind of doomed the "make a bunch of Oozaru clones and use Kaio-Ken x 20 with them" plan, hasn't it? They're more able to deal with it, but they're still taking massive damage that will be transferred back to the "real" body on dispersal. Or does the fact that Oozaru is an entirely different body mean that if the last body surviving isn't an Oozaru, we dodge the injuries?

Also, Multiform is technically described as "Splitting the body into x clones". Does this mean that there isn't a "real" body, just whichever one is still standing at the end?

Multiform also decreases the clones' endurance by the same amount as their power level is divided, so a clone will get just as damaged by kaioken as a whole person.
I think he means that the end result is the user takes less damage, not the individual clone.
I haven't said anything about the clones being able to use Kaioken longer.

The point is that after the clones combine, the damage will be divided. 1 damaged clone + 1 undamaged clone = 1/2 damaged person. The more no. of clones we have the lesser the final damage and the easier we recover from it. More importantly, the damage is isn't that much or no one would ever train Kaioken, it's just easier this way. We mostly just need it because our PL is too high to really get to higher levels without cracking wards.

It's mostly a matter of reducing any risk, and honestly? The reward is well worth it. A Full Power Kaioken User is 5 times stronger than a Full Power Super Saiyin user when both have max base power level and the Kaioken scales with base power. In terms of power ups, it's only surpassed by SSBlue. If we have the option to use any of the other Super Saiyin forms, a fully trained Kaioken is a superior alternative.

It can also boost the power of our clones equally, unlike SSJ which is divided among the clones.

The less damage simply makes training Super Saiyin Kaioken more viable.

Plus, the damage is mitigated even more given the fact that we can train in Oozaru form which explicitly has a greater resilience, and the fact that we're saiyins. What doesn't kill us literally makes us stronger. Even if we can't actually get stronger the healing ability should be there.
Oh, ninja'd!
 
This has kind of doomed the "make a bunch of Oozaru clones and use Kaio-Ken x 20 with them" plan, hasn't it?
Not really? Why wouldn't we be able to? Obviously, Goku managed to get to x20 and use it against Freeza. We all know how long that fight was. This shows that the damage isn't really that high and combat use is viable. Oozaru makes this even easier, due the resilience boost.

We don't need clones. They just make it easier and make using super saiyin Kaioken (SSK) more viable. With Oozaru base resilience and clones, using and actually training SSK might just be possible, though obviously this part is more of a wish rather than a demand.

EDIT: Next turn, we should have at least one other clone and thus another action. Who wants to agree to use that on Kaioken? The merits have been discussed thoroughly, I think.
 
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Not really? Why wouldn't we be able to? Obviously, Goku managed to get to x20 and use it against Freeza. We all know how long that fight was. This shows that the damage isn't really that high and combat use is viable. Oozaru makes this even easier, due the resilience boost.

We don't need clones. They just make it easier and make using super saiyin Kaioken (SSK) more viable. With Oozaru base resilience and clones, using and actually training SSK might just be possible, though obviously this part is more of a wish rather than a demand.

EDIT: Next turn, we should have at least one other clone and thus another action. Who wants to agree to use that on Kaioken? The merits have been discussed thoroughly, I think.
Oh man, I think I've been getting the Kaio-Ken scale wrong - I thought x20 was practically suicide, and that we were suggesting pseudo-suicide Oozaru clones. It's been a very long time since I read the original manga. my bad.

I completely support training Kaio-Ken either next turn or for more actions the turn after (since I think we're spending cookies next turn, adding an extra action to the cookie'd choice is probably a good idea if we're going to spend more actions on it the turn after anyway.)

Which really makes perfect sense, considering that going Oozaru was one of the cornerstones of the saiyan playbook.

So basically just learn Vegeta Style if we want to fight in Great/Golden Ape form.
I agree that we should just go with Tien style for now and the near future, but I still think if we end up putting in the actions to learn a new style purely for the Oozaru, we should make our own that plays exactly to the form's strengths and our personal strengths - we don't even know any of Vegeta Style's involved moves, and when we eventually get Perfect Multiform that Penalisation for Team Fighting is going to hurt.

EDIT: In fact, given that the Kaio-Ken Oozaru is explicitly planned to be fighting alongside the FPSSJ, it'll hurt right now.
 
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