Sucal
The Devil’s Cut
- Location
- Bottom of the barrel
Dragon Ball: After the End
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
This one runs long, so in short: I respectfully disagree with your interpretation of the transformation, and do not plan to change my implementation of it.
...when did I have to say it has to be a true epiphany? It doesn't. It just needs to be a change. It may be more narratively satisfying if it's a true change, but strictly speaking it doesn't need to be. Something about you just needs to break and change. Gohan allowing himself to "let it go" as a conscious decision rather than as a simple rampage is precisely that. Moreover, it's disingenuous to say Goku and Vegeta never experienced an epiphany; there's quite the time skip in there and we don't see their transformations. And the fact that they didn't become drastically different people in response to their transformations proves nothing to me, either. I know that Buu-Saga Gohan is more in line with what I would have expected of a Gohan growing up from any point prior to his transformation rather than any point after, certainly, so clearly his epiphany didn't alter him as a person in any substantial manner.
But most importantly, an epiphany in this context doesn't mean, "KAKARA-BOT IDENTIFIES PROBLEM. TROUBLESHOOTING." It means, "I've realized something about myself." It can even mean that something you think about yourself is wrong. It can mean that you view yourself in a way that isn't entirely accurate, and understanding that. You don't change; it's just your perception of yourself that does. Speaking precisely, BOD uses the term, "catharsis." I use "epiphany" because I like the word better, but perhaps the other will make communicate my meaning more precisely to you or others. Like other aspects of my system, you can find BOD's author's explanation of SSJ2 in their fic on fanfiction.net. This one is in chapter 76. Scroll to the bottom for the author's notes. Regardless of the language used, however, I am drawing from their explanation when I determine how this system works, and both the authors of BOD and I agree that canon presents SSJ2 as more than a simple physical change. There is no such thing as a flawless person; breaking barriers is precisely what Super Saiyan and to a greater extent Dragon Ball itself are all about. Achieving SSJ2 is about breaking through a mental barrier as much as a physical one.
Now, of course all Super Saiyan forms involve anger in the uncontrolled transformations. But given Full-Power Super Saiyan, and especially given the starkly negative light that saiyans' ruthless behavior under the influence is drawn in, I would disagree that the forms are meant to be all about that. Of course, being a newly-ascended SSJ2 is not a cerebral experience, and I have no intention of depicting it as such. But it requires more than simply clenching your sphincter and screaming some more; as Cell said (depending on your translation), "Don't think you can beat me just by powering up." If getting to SSJ2 was anything as simple as, "SSJ again, but with sparks in," then Goku would have managed it against Cell. Vegeta would have achieved it after Trunks died (he had a year in the chamber knowing the secret to FPSSJ after Goku and Gohan's turn, I don't buy that he didn't get either there or near enough to make the jump anyway). Gohan would have been there way earlier in his fight once it became clear that he was losing. But those things didn't happen. Goku and Vegeta never managed it until years had passed, and Gohan only achieved it after accepting that it was alright to feel anger, and to let it go.
This to me is in keeping with earlier themes in Dragon Ball; while SSJ itself is achieved through transcendental levels of anger, actually mastering it involved thinking beyond brute strength and becoming able to use it with ease. Simply trying to force more in the vein of the initial transformation just results in a bulky mess. While Super Saiyan was very unambiguously depicted as an avatar of rage and aggression, as soon as the Cell Saga started Akira Toriyama did an about-face and began mandating that his characters look beyond simple anger in order to grow stronger.
I have my problems with Akira Toriyama's writing, but this is not one of them. In fact, the idea that characters need to grow and change in order to become stronger is one I intend to honor in this quest. Not only is it a very strong trope in terms of storytelling, it's a very common one in genres and media across the planet. A character, properly executed, shouldn't remain static as they grow more powerful, or else they become a disappointment, or worse -- boring. Now, Kakara is not my character. I have quite a few of those to play with, and am content with them. She is at the direction of all of you. Your epiphany is your choice as is -- I've stated before -- the decision of whether or not to go SSJ2 at all. It can be an immense shift in Kakara's very being, or a simple acknowledgement that she's not something she thinks of herself as anymore. And if you all wish it, you can quite easily have a brief epiphany that you don't follow through on in any substantial manner, just like good ol' Jiichan himself did in between Cell and Buu.
But ultimately, I have made no secret that Bringer of Death is my system, and Bringer of Death has had this information up since day one of this quest. Whether or not you hold onto your SSJ2 epiphany, it will happen if you want to transform. I appreciate that you feel comfortable bringing up your objections, but this is a matter of the system I have chosen to borrow for the quest, and thus -- much like power levels -- I will have to say that on this topic my word as QM is final.
No, Pacifism is a trait that will continue to be developed through play. Now, traits develop by being used or challenged, so the very fact of needing to go SSJ2 will almost certainly provide the challenge needed to potentially develop the Pacifism trait. It would be addressed in an event series, ultimately. SSJ2 training shouldn't be a progress bar, I think.
- Location
- Australia
Um...actually I was thinking more in terms of ElleonXan's idea:
Trunks transformation to Super Saiyan 2 says otherwise. No epiphany, no realisation, just anger and need to be stronger.
We/Kakara knows that pacifism can make things harder. That's not a revelation.
Sucal
The Devil’s Cut
- Location
- Bottom of the barrel
I'm just pointing out that even beginning SS2 training starts the count down until the end of Garenhild.
Personally, I'd suggest developing Pacifism by picking up things like Ki Healing and Ki Barriers so that you can defend and protect the weak, and Ki Sight/Ki Sealing to deal with opponents with the minimal amount of fighting.
Oh, I know it doesn't actually help with freeing Jaffur, but all those three things are currently more attractive to me than learning Tenshinhan Style.
(Also, I don't actually think two actions on Tenshinhan Style is a complete waste, just that the actions could be better spent elsewhere, so sorry if I come off a bit harsh, it's just that I was using my mobile and needed to go to bed so I just wanted to get the meaning across quickly).
Also, @Deathbybunnies, I don't suppose you could remove the "was training Telepathy with Grandma" excuse from your plan? I don't think it's a particularly good excuse, primarily because it doesn't explain why we were slacking, just what we were doing instead. Once we tell them we've been slacking because we've been busy training Telepathy with Grandma, they'll just ask "well, WHY have you been training Telepathy with Grandma"? I think we'd be better off just coming up with an excuse when they actually confront us rather than try to come up with one now.
We're not going to get Multi-Form to Elite or Legendary for at least a decade either way, given that mastering a style takes years (at least five, I'd bet, and I think that's an optimistic point of view), and getting a skill up to Elite or Legendary will take loads of grinding, given that in this system it's harder to increase a skill the better at it you are, so, really, whether we train Tenshinhan Style this year or not really shouldn't have any bearing on when we get Multi-Form to Elite unless we use half our actions on it or something.
Might as well ask something, though. @PoptartProdigy, are there diminishing returns if you use multiple actions on training the same Style or Skill?
Also, @PoptartProdigy said that trying to contact Jaffur won't be a wasted action if we try to contact Jaffur, presumably since we'll have to figure out how to do it on our own if Sensei doesn't teach us (though you could still make the Contacting Jaffur actions conditional on being taught Mind Projection by Sensei).
Curious about why both you and @Deathbybunnies think that Command training is more important than contacting Jaffur, though. We're not certain to learn it at a useful level (because we still get a malus to the action that sets our starting level), so while it might be useful or both the Alien Invasion and the conspiracy to free Jaffur, we're not likely to grind it up to a useful level until both of those things are done.
In addition, it's not even particularly important for the Alien Invasion or the conspiracy to free Jaffur, given that Berra's the one who'll be commanding the fight against the aliens, and I'm pretty sure he has the Leadership skill, while I'm also pretty sure both Raditz and Grandma (both who're in on the conspiracy to free Jaffur and would be better suited than us to being in charge anyways) have the skill too.
I mean, we'll have to train it eventually, but I don't think it's more important than getting into contact with Jaffur, especially because being trapped nside Jaron's mind might with no one but Jaron to talk to probably isn't very good for his mental health, so even just getting in contact with him sooner rather than later might prevent him from becoming unstable even if we don't actually manage to talk to him long or get him into contact with Dandelor. Heck, even the knowledge that someone is at least trying to contact him might help his mental health.
Something I'll note, is that right before Goku and Majin Vegeta started fighting, Goku told Gohan to "Get angry" and "Remember how you got angry when you fought Cell, and drew forth all of your strength? If you do that gain, no one can beat you. No one!"
Plus, as seen repeatedly in Super, Anger = Power.
Something I'll note: while Gohan did gain the power to defeat Cell, he promptly wasted the opportunity to drag-out Cells death, which resulted in Goku's death, and Cell coming back stronger then ever.
It's not that anger is bad, it's that it needs to be controlled.
- Location
- Australia
It was implied and you later confirmed it in this post. It's Kakara truly realising something, it's not just something that happens because of and only during the transformation like Kakara's murderous thoughts when she first went Super Saiyan.
I disagree. I think that letting it go is what let him transform, not deciding that letting it go was ok. The difference between this time and previous rampages was that because it was a conscious decision, he didn't and couldn't "snap out" of it because there was no small part that was holding him back.
By "drawn in" do you mean the way the characters are physically drawn? Because even at Full Power Gohan and Goku are still drawn with full eye outlines while in Super Saiyan.
This is the problem. I addressed it in a previous post:
Realising that pacifism isn't good all the time - that would be a good epiphany for SS2. But what if we have that epiphany before we need to become SS2? Then it moves on to the next epiphany because us having that pacifism epiphany "early" has made it worthless as far as SS2 goes. So what if we reach the next epiphany before we need to become SS2? That's another epiphany that is in a way wasted. Move on to the next one, and so on and so forth until the only epiphanies left are the ones we don't want to have, like the ones that say we should be evil. We have to limit our character development or else get bad/sub-optimal character development when we have to hit SS2.
The way I've interpreted it is:
SS1 - lots of power+lots of rage+need
SS2 - even more power+even more rage+need+no emotional inhibitions
SS3 - even MORE power+even MORE rage+need+no emotional inhibitions+raw Saiyan instinct (the need to fight that a Saiyan has)
It didn't look like Goku lacked inhibitions in the same way Gohan did when he transformed.
I remember them saying what they did (that they trained their bodies so they got used to Super Saiyan), but I don't remember them ever telling him how they did it (by staying in Super Saiyan for as long as possible). That he didn't come out of the hyperbolic time chamber as a Super Saiyan suggests that he didn't get FPSS that time.
The way I see it, you've made Super Saiyan 2 about philosophy, about self-discovery and self-realisation and stuff like that. This is not what I believe to be the core of Super Saiyan at all. I see Super Saiyan as its name - a Saiyan, a super one. The ultimate warrior of the ultimate warrior race. Epiphany does not naturally fit into that.
So by this:
You didn't mean "one of your foundational traits", you meant "Driven, and nothing but Driven"?
Last edited:
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Nope.
Exactly.
Realizing something, yes. That doesn't mean realizing correctly, and "incorrect realization" does not immediately map 1:1 with, "either it's the anger of the transformation, or there is no possible mistaken epiphany." I am a lacking person is a mistaken epiphany. From the point of view of a hardliner pacifist, Gohan's epiphany of "I won't watch this anymore," is a mistaken epiphany. Given the subjective nature of epiphanies, there is an infinite myriad of ways to be wrong.
I am confused, I admit. You say his decision to let it go meant nothing but then say the only difference between his transformation and previous tantrums was...it being a conscious decision. Clarify please?
I am using "drawn in" in the sense that "drawn in" is an example of figurative language typically taken to mean, "depicted in."
You may feel as though you're in danger of "running out" of epiphanies if you don't artificially restrain your development, but I can assure you that simply isn't the case. For one thing, I pride myself on being quite capable of introducing new points of conflict as the story proceeds, so even if the well ever begins to run dry, so to speak, I'll be more than happy to create situations that very specifically interact with who Kakara is as a person. I'd be an incompetent writer and a very boring QM otherwise. And even before we get there, given the direction you all have been taking thus far I highly doubt that you all will eliminate every single possible epiphany from consideration before you put yourself on the road to needing SSJ2.
I would love to see your thought process for how you've interpreted the transformations, because it does look interesting -- if not the way I'm handling it here. As it stands, though, I'm having difficulty engaging with it because I don't see the process by which you arrived there.
One of the first things Goku said to Gohan upon transforming was to get out before he lost control completely. That's where I draw that from.
He was able to put up a fight against Cell Jr. without being instantly squashed; he was in Goku's league. Thus, I conclude that he had and exploited the secret, and simply didn't care to remain SSJ at all hours. After all, after the Cell Saga Gohan and Goku didn't.
That is certainly what the first one is about, yes. But I cannot simply look at the name alone and ignore the body of textual evidence suggesting that the higher forms require more.
You can have more than two foundational traits. You don't, presently, but you may later develop some, or elevate a current trait to that status by your actions.
* * *
While I do enjoy debates on Dragon Ball, I have said that my decision on this is final given that it is an element of the lore system I have adopted for this Quest. Thus, continuing this discussion verges on a thread derail, and is certainly off-topic. It makes it much harder for the people who don't want to engage in this discussion to participate by cluttering the thread with long arguments. Of course, I do have some things up there that invite response, and if there's a dedicated Dragon Ball lore thread on the site, I'd be happy to continue the discussion there, but this is no longer the place for it. Thank you for your thoughts and engagement, but we really should move elsewhere if we're to continue. I again emphasize that this is not something that will rob you of agency, and you need make no considerations for hobbling your character in anticipation of needing to "save up" for SSJ2. That simply doesn't and won't apply. Beyond that, I really do need to get back to sleep now; I'm only awake due to a nightmare as it is and need to be up early tomorrow. So in closing, goodnight everybody. I will close the vote tomorrow.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
But how could that be!
- Location
- Australia
Moved to Conversation.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
It specifically says our malus isn't as bad for this one. Also, it is a very important social thing, showing our involvement in protecting the Saiyans of Garenhuld and our duties as Scion. Ditching that to slack (from mom and dad's perspective) just invites unneeded levels of scrutiny on what we're doing.
We're not "ditching" it, though, since I don't think it's anything we're expected to do yet.
[X] Plan Aranfan
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
There is a coming alien invasion. Now is the time to learn it.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
I went to bed, but now I'm back. removing the "excuse" from the explicit plan.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
We need more rolls in A Warrior's Path to avoid skill degradation caused by failing all of them, it publicly looks like we're taking the crisis (and our vow to help) seriously, and we want the "Leadership" skill.
Except that we won't actually get it at sufficient level before the invasion, and even if we did, it wouldn't matter since Berra will be the one in charge.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Maybe this is so hotly debated because people had different experiences growing up. How would your parents have reacted to a grade drop? (Note: There will probably be no grade drop.)
Mine would have been disappointed, told me so and expected me to work harder in the future. They would not have started examining every aspect of my life and my free time, to see if anything doesn't seem right; they would just have insisted that I work harder in school, and if necessary make time for it in the future. And my parents were, comparatively, strict (though not one of those horror stories you hear about.)
Mine would have been disappointed, told me so and expected me to work harder in the future. They would not have started examining every aspect of my life and my free time, to see if anything doesn't seem right; they would just have insisted that I work harder in school, and if necessary make time for it in the future. And my parents were, comparatively, strict (though not one of those horror stories you hear about.)
- Location
- Somewhere I shouldn't be
I've honestly not been following the past dozen pages of discussion as closely as normal.
This has been contentious.
I'm going to have to support:
[X] Plan Deathbybunnies
Especially given the incoming threat, I think our parents will understand us not putting 2 actions of effort into our grades. Focusing 2 actions of effort into other parts of the Masqued life should help us retain and enhance our connection with the 'normal' world.
I don't like that this plan doesn't train us in Tien style, but it does still give us multiform training as well as other trainings that are likely important for the upcoming threat.
Learning telepathy, which it also includes, is something we have (in character) said we need to do several times.
@Arafan - if you were to drop to Slack to pick up Learn Telepathy, I could just as easily support your plan. They were close, but the grades thing was the tipping point for me.
This has been contentious.
I'm going to have to support:
[X] Plan Deathbybunnies
Especially given the incoming threat, I think our parents will understand us not putting 2 actions of effort into our grades. Focusing 2 actions of effort into other parts of the Masqued life should help us retain and enhance our connection with the 'normal' world.
I don't like that this plan doesn't train us in Tien style, but it does still give us multiform training as well as other trainings that are likely important for the upcoming threat.
Learning telepathy, which it also includes, is something we have (in character) said we need to do several times.
@Arafan - if you were to drop to Slack to pick up Learn Telepathy, I could just as easily support your plan. They were close, but the grades thing was the tipping point for me.
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
Actually, PoptartProdigy has confirmed that learning a style will prevent degradation even if we fail the roll and don't do anything else.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
It's still an extra roll in that category.
What, you thought we all united behind Plan: Neolithic Death Ray that quickly? These things take time!
Does your current incarnation still have telepathy?