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I've remembered my second thought, and am posting from bed.

[] [ASK] What benefits, if any, does capsule tech actually provide beyond easy transportation? Is it mostly just a big deal for maintaining Earth relics and Bulma's importance to the Exiles?
"Beyond easy transportation" is a giant radioactive dire understatement.

For any application where mobility or travel is involved, having a healthy collection of well-stocked capsules is the next best thing to having a replicator, and in some situations is better than having a replicator.

The fact that it apparently also permits stable storage of arbitrary objects in some kind of spatially compressed pocket dimension probably has implications for storing, well, anything. It may also involve underlying secrets of spacetime manipulation that are related to the ability to construct gravity generators and FTL drives, both of which are tech that only the Briefs family had as far as I can tell.

Also I'm pretty sure you could make a Poké Ball out of capsule technology if you were so inclined, which is a good reason to think it's awesome tech no matter what else it lets you do.
 
So, these were found looking back at past events:
I think this is an unnecessary shadowrun that eats up an action for no gain. We've had no indications that we've been compromised, and I sincerely doubt that Dandeer is that much of a mastermind. If she had a mole inside of the conspiracy, she'd be acting very differently, and she'd have Berra acting differently too - namely, she'd have him mind delve us and take all the information they'd need, and he'd shut down the conspiracy now before we're ready. What does she gain from letting us continue organising and preparing?

No, I think Dandeer is a sad, desperate woman who broke under the constant abuse of her husband and did some awful things to try and escape that situation - and then did them to Jaffur too, out of fear that he'd turn into his father (let's face it, he already had a temper and was very poorly socialised). I don't think she's secretly puppeting Berra, and I think that jumping at shadows that aren't there is a waste of an action at a time when we're already action-starved.
I DO NOT support checking our conspiracy members for magic - it is a waste of an action and will almost certainly find nothing.

I think we need to train Tien Style (which will possibly get us another rank in Multiform) openly (meaning Mom will teach us) and research Jaffur Style with Mato.
I agree with @Deathbybunnies . If Dandeer were a secret super-mastermind in control of everything including a conspiracy she could not easily have foreseen, and most of whose members are either super-saiyans or members of a family whose location is a total secret to everyone and who have one of the few sorcerors on the planet capable of matching her power, we wouldn't have a conspiracy anymore. Not with Berra willing to bust it wide open.
...
@Gore17 ...

I don't like the idea of spending an action on a purely speculative concern that we have zero evidence that we need to worry about.

We could easily dream up ten or twelve actions we could take as precautions against imagined threats, and maybe a few of those precautions would even prove valuable in the future- but we'd totally cripple ourselves in the process, because we'd spend so many actions looking out for secret traitors and secret mind control and "but wait, what if she mind-controlled the sorceror we used to check for mind control" and secret Garenhulder sorceror conspiracies... We'd never grow, we'd never learn any useful skills. We'd be stuck with the powers and skills of a twelve year old child, just a very paranoid twelve year old child.

I'm not sure we should privilege "what if Dandeer has secret mind-controlled spies in a conspiracy she would have every reason to break wide open if she could do so" over the many many other imagined threats we could think of. If they don't deserve a whole Action Point worth of precautions, I don't think this does either.

Furthermore, I find it very disagreeable for us to spend Action Points on short-term security against speculative threats, that would have to be renewed every year to keep us safe (since nothing stops Dandeer from putting mind control hexes on people later after we've already swept them for bugs). Especially in a year where we seem so hard up for actions that people are willing to abandon long term projects that promise to provide Kakara with extraordinary, breakthrough capabilities like Perfect Multiform and Transcendence.
It's more than that there's no indications, it's that the way she's acted and has had Berra acting - because if she's mind-controlled a mole in the conspiracy, it doesn't make sense for her not to do the same to the guy everything she has relies on and speaks to privately on a regular basis - make absolutely no sense. Why has the conspiracy been allowed to get as far as it has? Why hasn't Berra gone and confronted the Senzu with their monopoly of Senzu beans, as he is lawfully able to do, cutting off the only other master sorcerer and real threat to her supposed sorcerous ways that is literally about to start teaching Jaffur how to break free of his Seal, the whole point of her doing this?

It's not even just pure speculation, it's pure speculation that doesn't make sense.
We're not in a great position to check the loyalty of everyone, among other things because we can't have anyone but Dandelor checking up on the Senzus. Well, we could maybe throw a few Seer visions at it or something, but we'd be relying heavily on Dandelor to cast Detect Magic for us, so to speak.

Also, "mental triggers" are if anything more unlikely than ongoing mental influence, in my opinion. Dandeer has good reason to worry about some of her political opponents within Clan Vegeta. Especially Yammar who has a proven track record of power and ruthlessness and has threatened her with death in perhaps the most terrifying way imaginable (given her super-saiyan related PTSD).

Her planting mind-affecting bugs in some of them would actually make a lot of sense, because she has strong, day to day incentives to know what they're thinking and gain some influence over them. She almost certainly can't do that with the Senzus, because she wouldn't have known she needed to before the Sealing, and because since the Sealing the Senzus are bottled up with a master sorceror who is not an idiot and has had four years to sweep his family for bugs.

But 'doomsday triggers?' She's shown no signs of apocalyptic mindset. Indeed, she seems worse at thinking in terms of apocalyptic problems than average; it's why she doesn't seem to grasp that Jaron/Jaffur isn't safe Sealed away and ignorant of ki in a world where the alien invasion and other future dangers are a thing. Everything we've seen about her suggests that she's a danger because of her short-term abilities, not because she's got nested layers of plans within plans within plans. Her first-order plans are almost certainly better and more likely to exist than her "go to hell" plans.

Again, we have zero evidence for Dandeer having secret time bombs buried in the heads of various prominent members of saiyan society. It is a threat we entirely conceived ourselves without support from the outside world. We don't even know if it's possible to do that! To get a sense of what magic can and cannot do, we should be pursuing "Study Magic," which is part of my "Plan Training Montage." Not just shooting in the dark.
Ok... why are people suspecting Dandeer of having someone, mind controlled or not, inside of the conspiracy? Grandma and Yammar are handling the recruiting and they have a lot more experience than us and even if they didn't, we have a bunch of seers constantly scrying to see if there is a threat for said conspiracy already.
Irony, thy name is Dandeer. And Carrick.
 
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Gore, I'll give you this one, you proposed "sweep the conspiracy for bugs."

I think what it came down to is that the exact bug scenario that occurred seems kind of... how do I say this...

It required what was without hindsight almost unbelievable stupidity for Dandeer not to have rolled up our conspiracy pre-emptively. She had a pet Seer who knew everything about our plan, she had a control spell that would effectively neuter Yammar as a threat, she had Berra and Vegeta under control. Given this level of penetration, we should have been screwed before we started, except for Dandeer completely fucking up her management of her own assets.

I don't think it honestly ever crossed most of our minds that Dandeer could have conditional mind control on Berra and Yammar, and active intense mind control on Carrick Balor, without our conspiracy being blown wide open and defeated long before we could reach fruition.

...

Speaking for myself, as the quote box illustrates, I basically dismissed the truth as too stupid to believe.
 
I like to view this as us overestimating Dandeer's weak points(intelligence/skill/planning/competence), and underestimating her strong point(mind control magic hammer).
Speaking for myself, as the quote box illustrates, I basically dismissed the truth as too stupid to believe.
You would be survived at how stupid people can be, even otherwise "competent" ones. The number of hairbrained spy schemes is staggering. :p

But seriously, I think this is a good argument for "study the enemy". And "always make sure."
 
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I like to view this as us overestimating Dandeer's weak points(intelligence/skill/planning/competence), and underestimating her strong point(mind control magic hammer).

You would be survived at how stupid people can be, even otherwise "competent" ones. The number of hairbrained spy schemes is staggering. :p

But seriously, I think this is a good argument for "study the enemy". And "always make sure."
I think a better one is "never give anyone faith or credit unless they've explicitly earned it."
 
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Another part of that is the action economy at the time. It would have been a good idea to do a bunch of paranoid spy sweeps of all assets, on general principles if nothing else... But with the information we had, was that probable enough to be one of the ~10 things we want to do that year? It's not clear to me that that was a mistake even in hindsight, with the information we had.

The lesson I take is "Don't trust anyone, do everything ourself, be (in character) bitter as hell."
 
Here's a better solution: ensure that there's no single points of failure, and organise others to do the work for you.

If we'd had multiple Seer contacts, or brought in other sorcerers, we'd have been better off.
 
Here's a better solution: ensure that there's no single points of failure, and organise others to do the work for you.

If we'd had multiple Seer contacts, or brought in other sorcerers, we'd have been better off.
This is very true. We had... Three? People managing things overall, one handling all sorcery, and one handling all seer things.
 
So, we can conclude that it'll be around the invasion. You'll be Masqued, under additional power level restrictions even beyond that, and by all accounts you've made yourself central to this whole mess."
I wonder if this has somehow changed.

Its the premonition we had.

Being a shade presumably counts as additional PL restrictions, but I get the feeling we ain't gonna be doing the invasion thing no more.
 
I wonder if this has somehow changed.

Its the premonition we had.

Being a shade presumably counts as additional PL restrictions, but I get the feeling we ain't gonna be doing the invasion thing no more.
We got the safety kick from the premonition from like Jaffur in the middle of that whole mess when Dandeer revealed her multiple mind slaves.
 
I don't think we were masqued and under additional PL restraints at the time though.

Though of course we can't trust anything Carrik told us of course.

... That's not the premonition. The premonition was the kick, nothing more and nothing less. The Masque and additional restrictions was why people thought it would be in the invasion. It seemed the likely time for such a kick, in universe and otherwise.
 
... That's not the premonition. The premonition was the kick, nothing more and nothing less. The Masque and additional restrictions was why people thought it would be in the invasion. It seemed the likely time for such a kick, in universe and otherwise.
Ok...I'll go get some breakfast and reassess things.
 
"Beyond easy transportation" is a giant radioactive dire understatement.

For any application where mobility or travel is involved, having a healthy collection of well-stocked capsules is the next best thing to having a replicator, and in some situations is better than having a replicator.

The fact that it apparently also permits stable storage of arbitrary objects in some kind of spatially compressed pocket dimension probably has implications for storing, well, anything. It may also involve underlying secrets of spacetime manipulation that are related to the ability to construct gravity generators and FTL drives, both of which are tech that only the Briefs family had as far as I can tell.

Also I'm pretty sure you could make a Poké Ball out of capsule technology if you were so inclined, which is a good reason to think it's awesome tech no matter what else it lets you do.
I doubt capsules had anything to do with gravity manipulation. In 'Jacko the galactic patrolman' Jacko meets the Brief family when Bulma was 5 or so. Jacko's ship was broken so he lets Mr Brief examine it; while doing so he comments that it is impressive that the ship flies by manipulating gravity and Jacko lets him study it because it is an old model and not that impressive. Presumably, flying cars and the gravity chamber are derivates from that tech.

Likewise, FTL is probably derivated from the several space ships they had the chance to study (Nameless Namekian's, Goku's and Jacko's)
 
I like to view this as us overestimating Dandeer's weak points(intelligence/skill/planning/competence), and underestimating her strong point(mind control magic hammer).

You would be survived at how stupid people can be, even otherwise "competent" ones. The number of hairbrained spy schemes is staggering. :p

But seriously, I think this is a good argument for "study the enemy". And "always make sure."
And "use our Sight more." Since one of the biggest ways our presumptions bit us in the ass was that we assumed we DIDN'T need to use the Sight to scry on the events of the Sealing ourselves, because Carrick Balor and the other seers were doing it for us. It's not clear to me that Carrick ever recruited the other Seers at all, as he said he would do. And if he did, well, he wasn't passing on the most significant of their reports to us. If we had put in even a modicum of effort using the Sight ourselves, we would have learned what was happening and without too much trouble averted it.

I think a better one is "never give anyone faith or credit unless they've explicitly earned it."
The thing is, when you're up against a mind controlling witch, it's entirely possible for people who HAVE done a great deal to earn faith and credit to abruptly change sides and screw us over.

Carrick Balor taught us essential skills that at this very moment are the only way we were ever able to escape Dandeer's victory. Berra taught us the vast majority of what we know about fighting, and how to become a super-saiyan.

Both of these men are people who, in the normal course of things, would have been our strongest and most trustworthy allies and who would have saved us from many perils.

Because we were up against Dandeer, both of them were forced against their will to act as our enemies.

This is me speaking from real life study, but never underestimate the stupidity of people in or against conspiracies, they will always surprise and make you doubt the potential future of humanity.
True. I should have remembered my Cipolla.

Another part of that is the action economy at the time. It would have been a good idea to do a bunch of paranoid spy sweeps of all assets, on general principles if nothing else... But with the information we had, was that probable enough to be one of the ~10 things we want to do that year? It's not clear to me that that was a mistake even in hindsight, with the information we had.
I mean, the point kicking off this entire discussion was Gore noting that we could have spent ONE action sweeping our key co-coconspirators for Dandeer's mind control bugs. Given that Dandeer was the arc villain of the time, and mind control was her main known means of posing a threat, this would have been a pretty rationally directed use of our time. And it would have been enough.

So the lesson can just as well be "focus on defeating one enemy at a time, and don't let your long term training priorities override the need to prepare against the specific individual being you're working to confront." Honestly we had enough time to do SOMETHING about this even in the limited time between beating Dazarel and the Unsealing, because something as trivial as "sweep Yammar for bugs" would have immediately revealed the problem.

The problem was, as you note, vote structure; we weren't given an open-ended opportunity to say "here are the list of things we want to do in the name of taking precautions," we were given a chance to vote yes or no on the details until the last minute... At which point the vote choice became "so, do you carry out the existing plan of your allies who you have no specific reason to distrust, or do you derail the train by doing something different?

[Bluntly, one of the reasons I am super disappointed in the pre-existing power structure among the Exiles is that no one besides us WAS pre-sweeping Berra for bugs, because the Gokuns had like over 9000 sorcerors even if they were hilariously overworked doing the work of their dead Vegetan counterparts for most of our lives.]

The lesson I take is "Don't trust anyone, do everything ourself, be (in character) bitter as hell."
This is a recipe for OTHER disastrous failure modes. Lots of them.

I doubt capsules had anything to do with gravity manipulation. In 'Jacko the galactic patrolman' Jacko meets the Brief family when Bulma was 5 or so. Jacko's ship was broken so he lets Mr Brief examine it; while doing so he comments that it is impressive that the ship flies by manipulating gravity and Jacko lets him study it because it is an old model and not that impressive. Presumably, flying cars and the gravity chamber are derivates from that tech.

Likewise, FTL is probably derivated from the several space ships they had the chance to study (Nameless Namekian's, Goku's and Jacko's)
To clarify what I meant, I'm saying that capsules and gravity generators may involve the same physics, in the same sense that, e.g., electric generators and radio antennas use the same physics (Maxwell's laws of electricity and magnetism) despite doing entirely different things.

Based on what we know about the real universe, which is admittedly questionable in the context of Dragonball...

Gravity IS, at a deep level, a force that distorts space and time.

When you sit on the surface of the Earth, you feel gravity towards the center of the Earth because spacetime has been distorted. In stronger gravitational fields (say, inside the event horizon of a black hole), falling downwards is as inevitable as traveling from Tuesday to Wednesday, because spacetime is warped such that "downwards" and "next Tuesday" are in fact pointing the same direction. By contrast on Earth, there is only a slight downward bias in the direction of "next Tuesday," with time still pointing mostly timewards and not very downwards, so you can compensate for the tendency of your position five seconds from now to be downhill by putting a floor in the way.

So it is entirely reasonable to expect one technology for intensely distorting space (and possibly imposing some kind of time stasis) around the contents of a capsule to be on some level conceptually related to the physics that allows one to warp space and time in other ways.

This might explain why Dr. Briefs, the great capsule researcher, is even able to recognize the gravity generators of an FTL starship. And why decades later, he and his daughter are able to build their own starship so quickly given the saiyan pods as working example models. And why two decades after that, his daughter is able to build a freaking time machine under "in a cave with a box of scraps" conditions.

The great majority of the Briefs' marvelous inventions are in some way related to gravity, space, or time. And it is reasonable to associate them as inventors with this 'schtick' in the same sense that Edison is associated with electricity... even though Edison had many inventions, including some famous ones, that didn't use electricity in any way.
 
Realistically, what steps should we take to prevent this from occurring again?

I assume we can add:
  1. Scy everything: Easy to do now with our jail-broken sight, provides opportunities to verify first hand information at very little cost.
  2. Question everything: If we have to waste a turn clarifying those points that should be obvious, so be it. Assumptions killed this whole plan.
  3. Hone investigation skills?: Being able to bust Dandeer back when she sent those assassins would have nipped this whole thing in the bud.
  4. Identify Magic: Either a technique or a device or something. Identifying spells and seals on our conspiracy members first-hand would have prevented all of this.
  5. Telepathy/Greater Mind Delve: Get better at looking for psychic anomalies in peoples heads. Even if it's not obvious with Dandeers tricks, it may come in handy for future psychic/mind control enemies.
 
And "use our Sight more." Since one of the biggest ways our presumptions bit us in the ass was that we assumed we DIDN'T need to use the Sight to scry on the events of the Sealing ourselves, because Carrick Balor and the other seers were doing it for us. It's not clear to me that Carrick ever recruited the other Seers at all, as he said he would do. And if he did, well, he wasn't passing on the most significant of their reports to us. If we had put in even a modicum of effort using the Sight ourselves, we would have learned what was happening and without too much trouble averted it.
Well in fairness to us, action economy really bit us in the behind since Carrick either of his own initiative as a standard part of training, or because we posed a threat to Dandeer bound our sight.

Actually our sight being bound is kinda...well...

How do I put this. Nothing we did with Carrick indicated that the level of sight we could access at the time was unusual, but we can't take him as a reliable source, we never interacted with other Seers either.

I mean I can't tell, if Kakara's meant to be to Seers what Dandeer and Jaffur (seems) to be to Sorcerors is what I'm getting at and Carrick bound while we were a baby to stop us seeing ourselves into a DBZ version of Conrad Kurze.

I don't think any other seers have ever unconsciously projected themselves into the other world.

True. I should have remembered my Cipolla.
Does this refer to Carlo M Cipolla the Italian economic historian or onions (in Italian) I can't tell?

[Bluntly, one of the reasons I am super disappointed in the pre-existing power structure among the Exiles is that no one besides us WAS pre-sweeping Berra for bugs, because the Gokuns had like over 9000 sorcerors even if they were hilariously overworked doing the work of their dead Vegetan counterparts for most of our lives.]
I dunno...I remember there being around 7000, but yeah...

To give them some credit though I get the feeling this maybe the fault of previous lords and ladies, who likely would have felt insulted by the mere idea of a sorceror being able to bug them for something like that, so there was nothing in place for this to happen and even then I imagine Dandeer's work would be beyond what a Sorceror would notice unless your as skilled/monofocused on Dandeer as Dandelor.

Though speaking of, I'm kinda nervous...cause ya know with us gone, Darzel with us the Senzu are the remaining threat to Dandeer on Garenhuld and she's got a lot of power to work with...kinda afraid she'll try and brute force the Senzu's location and smash their wards.

  1. Telepathy/Greater Mind Delve: Get better at looking for psychic anomalies in peoples heads. Even if it's not obvious with Dandeers tricks, it may come in handy for future psychic/mind control enemies.
OH DARRRRRRZELLLLL! Be a good dragon and give Kakara your knowledge.

@PoptartProdigy
1. I dunno if I asked this before, but when Kakara messaged people before her escape, did she only message people she knew like, family or did she message the sayain people as a whole?

I ask because I find it ambiguous...though it may not be so in the slightest.
 
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@PoptartProdigy
1. I dunno if I asked this before, but when Kakara messaged people before her escape, did she only message people she knew like, family or did she message the sayain people as a whole?

I ask because I find it ambiguous...though it may not be so in the slightest.
She messaged family and friends. The Senzus do not have infinite space under those wards of theirs.

Writing!
 
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