Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
Booo I thought they had most of a mountain.
In other news I think we need to add another thing to the list of things Kakara want to know.
WTF did this seer seal come from...
Dragon Ball: After the End
In other news I think we need to add another thing to the list of things Kakara want to know.
WTF did this seer seal come from...
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
We'll add it to the list of the many many things we want to go See once we've found ourselves somewhere to settle down in, along with the research and training lists
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
We also need to figure out exactly what we can do now...We'll add it to the list of the many many things we want to go See once we've found ourselves somewhere to settle down in, along with the research and training lists
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
The Italian economic historian, and in particular his great work The Basic Laws of Human Stupidity.
The laws being:
1) Always and inevitably everyone underestimates the number of stupid people in circulation.
2) The probability that a person be stupid is independent of any other characteristic of that person.
3) A stupid person is a person who causes losses to another person, or to a group of persons, while themself deriving no gain and even possibly incurring losses.
4) Non-stupid people always underestimate the damaging power of stupid individuals. In particular, non-stupid people constantly forget that at all times and places and under any circumstances to deal and/or associate with stupid people always turns out to be a costly mistake.
5) A stupid person is the most dangerous type of person. Corollary: A stupid person is more dangerous than a bandit, a person who harms others for personal benefit.
It would actually greatly relieve my mind if I knew that the Gokuns DID get regular checks for evil magic by a court sorceror, and that Dandeer just had high enough skill to avoid detection by those checks.
Yammar can be given a free pass because he lived in seclusion and because of the chaos into which the Vegetan royal court had been thrown; it is likely that Dandeer WAS the official court sorceress of the Vegetan royal line.
An alarming prospect, but sadly one we can't do anything about except "hurry up and save them already." It's one of my motives for trying to find a way to communicate with our old friends on Garenhuld, honestly- to learn if Dandelor has any specific ideas about how to avoid that.
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Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
I'd say there's little doubt about it, its her or Dandelor and Dandelor was a recluse as I recall.
Still I do feel sorry for the likely dead aliens.
Well dead or mind raped pick your choice.
I doubt the gokun sorcerers have been checking for incompetence, but I also don't think that's a sign of incompetence at all. This whole situation with Dandeer seems to be the first time in Exile history a Scion, Lord/Lady or Patriarch/Matriarch has been mind controlled, and Dandeer's mind control is also far ahead of anything the Exile sorcerers have ever been able to accomplish. And well, if no one's ever bugged a Royal with magic before, I can't exactly fault the Exiles for not coming up with a procedure for preventing it, because it simply hasn't been an issue until now.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I'd like to renew my standing request NOT to dwell on "these people we liked who are probably dead" when we can't do a damn thing about the situation.
If they're dead, dwelling on how they're dead won't help them and will actively demoralize us.
If they're alive, dwelling on how they're dead will actively demoralize us for literally no reason.
I mean, I like to think it's the sort of thing I'd come up with. "Hey, court sorceror, scan me for any lingering spells that might have been cast on me."
With the Exiles having this much history, and there having been this many plots among the royals (e.g. Oni Goku) and intrigues by the Houses (e.g. multiple super saiyan revolts), it's hard to imagine there hasn't been at least one instance of 'sorcery crime,' even if not on this scale.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Tien Style with Perfect Multiform. It was hoped that Tien's life-consuming moves would be more sustainable as an Oozaru. Originally the plan was just to Multiform off an Oozaru to go Kaio-Ken as a second relevant fighter, but discovering Golden Oozaru made that decision way better.
- Location
- Academy City
- Pronouns
- They
Well, maybe a bit late, but I'm not sure there even is FTL travel in DBZ, for one simple reasdon: I suspect there isn't actually a lightspeed limit.
In real life, anything that travels faster than light is timetraveling; "the present" propegates at a light cone. When you look at the stars in the sky, you are still seeing part of the present. In DBZ, timetravel is a huge deal, but nothing is done about all of the extremely fast ships, or Goku's instant transmission, or the freeza force's communicators, or intergalactic ki sensing, etc. even though in real life these would all be time machines.
In real life, anything that travels faster than light is timetraveling; "the present" propegates at a light cone. When you look at the stars in the sky, you are still seeing part of the present. In DBZ, timetravel is a huge deal, but nothing is done about all of the extremely fast ships, or Goku's instant transmission, or the freeza force's communicators, or intergalactic ki sensing, etc. even though in real life these would all be time machines.
- Location
- Italy
We also need to
1) integrate seer powers into our style (combat precog, possibly the ki-block Carrick once used for non-lethal takedown) (and maybe Jaffur and/or Tabe's tricks). This is probably easier to do once we master Tien style (i assume modifying a style is easier than creating a new one from scratch.
2)see if we can find a way to access the base pool as oozaru (and vice versa).It would probably require meditation. Should be possible to do while we're a shade.
If possible at all it would probably be the equivalent of ssj4.
I don't think mastering Jaffur's and Tabe's ki tricks is a maybe, since mastering those two is probably our easiest way to get powerful and thus far more important than training Tenshinhan Style (and possibly Seer abilities as well). Tabe was fighting at the level of a Super Saiyan using his ki trick, and even at Poor proficiency, Jaffur's ki trick can boost our power level by 5 %, so who knows how strong it'd be at Exceptional?
They're also both Ki Talents, which means we have a massive bonus to training them up.
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- Location
- Italy
my maybe is not about training them, more about making them an explicit part of the style (and receiving the related bonus to rolls.). That would require modifying the style, wouldn't it? Unless they don't count as techniques for the rolls but directly apply to the power level instead.
EDIT: the idea of a Kaioken overloaded hypercompressed ki boost (mixing all 3 ways we know to make us stronger than normal) IS appealing though.
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..Gah, sorry.
And yeah, if Kaioken kan be part of Goku Style, the ki tricks can probably be part of a style as well.
..This is kinda making me curious about some mechanical stuff, though.
@PoptartProdigy, how does Tenshinhan style giving bonuses to Four-Witches-Technique work, anyways? Does it make it count has having higher ranks and thus give an indirect bonus to Hand-to-Hand, or does it do something else?
And speaking of styles, how much lower is the bonus for using Piccolo style than other styles?
Oh, and how does Solar Flare mechanically work?
- Location
- Peterborough, NH, USA
Basically, go the Goku route. Everyone else is going to screw it up, die, fail, or some combination of the above, so do it yourself. I figured being skilled enough to outfight Yammar would suffice, but these are good ideas.
- Location
- The Great Beyond
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
I mean, Tabe's trick conversely blows through power as it's explicit basis, so using it aggressively can backfire. Jaffur's trick seems pure good other than needing investment, longterm, but Tabe's is somewhat specialized.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
The generally dysfunctional nature of the celestial bureaucracy seems to be one of the fundamental underlying principles of the cosmos in Dragonball, so I'm guessing it won't be easy.
Well, the root cause for this is that anything traveling faster than light is time travel in some hypothetical frame of reference. Like, if you travel FTL at 100 times the speed of light from Earth to Mars, nobody on Earth or Mars actually thinks you traveled backwards in time... but a passing spacecraft moving at relativistic speeds in certain directions might think so.
The prohibition on FTL travel is a consequence of "causality must hold in all frames of reference," which means no thing that could EVER appear to be time travel is allowed to happen.
...
The most likely explanation is that in Dragonball, there is a privileged frame of reference for the universe within which the question "so, is this or is this not time travel" is arbitrated. Say, in terms of "parameters of your movement relative to the Sacred World of the Kais." As long as an observer standing on the surface of that planet doesn't think you're time-traveling, you're not time-traveling, so it's all good. Or something like that.
And yes, general relativity is not REMOTELY salvageable in this context. It goes right out the window, which means that yes, gravity manipulation, spatial distortion, and time travel CAN operate on fundamentally different and unrelated sets of physical laws.
On the other hand, they could also still be interrelated but in a different way, and it WOULD help explain why one father-daughter pair of scientists could achieve so many great things if all those things tapped into the same core set of fundamental knowledge.
From the sound of it, they apply only to power level.
It's like, the only style for which Kaio-Ken is an 'involved technique' is Goku Style, which I suspect means that Goku stylists get bonuses on Kaio-Ken rolls, NOT that you have to be using the Kaio-Ken to be fighting in Goku Style or that you have to be a Goku Stylist to use the Kaio-Ken while fighting.
I'm not sure we'll be able to combine all three methods, and I suspect that using Overcharge and the Kaio-Ken at the same time might have nasty side effects. We know that Jaffur's Ki Refinement and the Kaio-Ken are compatible, though, because we've seen him use both at once.
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- Location
- Here and there
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I still get that feeling that most current techniques are way too lethal for our use, and that we'd need to go through some modifications to make them Kakara-friendly.
That thing about assumptions still applies though.
Already (probably) established.
That thing about assumptions still applies though.
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
I probably should have worded it better, but my question wasn't necessarily who put the seal on us (though I unless its something Seers can do like how they can force it on others, seals are a magic thing. The kinda thing that Dandeer maybe able to do since its likely she can put blocks up against the sight.)
My question is more why was the seal needed?
Is it something every seer gets, was it something unique to Kakara that she needed or she'd See herself to death (she does seem to be a 1 in a trillion level prodigy for it. I can't think of anyone else who unconsciously projects themselves into heaven.)
Was it something Dandeer stuck on us to stop us from accessing the full Seer might?
I do not know, but the why is just as important as the who in this context me thinks.
- Location
- Academy City
- Pronouns
- They
No, that's not actually the case; at 100c, the difference between "moving at reletavistic speeds" and "stationary" is essentially a rounding error. If you travel 100 times the speed of light, and there was video feed of you on earth taking off directly transmitted by radio to someone on mars, then you would arrive before the image did. Now, this isn't a perfect analogy, because this can technically happen without timetravel due to inneficiencies - if a gamma ray burst on earth is set off, the martian observer would die before observing it on the screen because human neurons are not infinitely fast - 100c travel is an entirely seperate kettle of fish. Goku's "It from Beerus and Whis' planet to earth" in Ressurection F is >Trillions of C, by a conventional definition of speed and light speed. Any frame of reference that would have even 100c travel not be timetravel, however, would have the entire rest of the universe be constantly timetraveling, so the supreme world iof the kais approach just doesn't work.
I think the most elegant solution here is probably that the speed of light is infinite / arbitrarily fast; you can ki sense->IT at the speed of light, which is instant even across galaxies, and speed in excess of 3*10^8 m/s is just a matter of adding extra acceleration / holding the previous acceleration for longer. This still leaves "FTL" (I need a better term) as supremely advanced tech, because you need some serious inertial compensator to make it work at any reasonable speed, for the equipment at least even if you have a high enough power level to live.
Making the c infinite in e=mc^2 probably also leads to a really elegant solution to "where are the people who use Ki getting this energy from," although I'm not sure extending this is wise because that brings into question "how do nuclear weapons work, when they've already shown up in an update" and perhaps more importantly "how the fuck do stars work;" the latter can be explained by "the kais did it" but that's kinda unsatisfying and just moves the problem onto the other kinds of nuclear physics.
There's always other options, though. Even leaving the meta explanation of "Toriyama didn't make it internally consistant," you could have varying degrees of complex physical laws to explain it right up to "reality is some ways analogous to a computer simulation run by Zeno, and he decided to make a higher level universe largely consistant with our own despite vastly diverging base laws."
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Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
Or perhaps we could not attempt to explain it and accept that we can do it?
I mean I know that's not the SV way, but still.
I mean I know that's not the SV way, but still.
- Location
- Academy City
- Pronouns
- They
If you'll look, that's already a listed option; ""Toriyama didn't make it internally consistant." It's also the one that has the added advantage of being demonstrably true. It's just unsatisfying to me and I'd much prefer to find a solution that's internally consistant, matches the data, and doesn't rely on the meta level to work / a meta standin like Zeno.
- Location
- Italy
eh, i probably didn't explain myself very well
we can combine Tabe's trick with our big supply of senzu beans though.
Someone also brought up the idea of swallowing some kind of small capsule containing the senzu and resistant to stomach acid, and having some way of opening/dissolving it DIRECTLY in the stomach when you want to be healed. the hi-tech version of keeping a senzu in your mouth ready to be chewed basically
There was also that old idea about small blutz wave generators directly applied above the eyes like small eye contacts..
We need a Bulma. Goku didn't really take enough advantage of his, we'll not be the same!
Could be. I was thinking about how Jaffur's style has his ki compression trick as a prerequisite, and so it might be considered an involved technique. Being directly applied to (effective) power level makes sense though.
combining all three might very well require elite+ talents now that i think of it.
Now, Jaffur's trick keeps the ki more focused from what i understand, makes it more dense.
the Kaioken just overclocks your body, allowing you to produce more energy but wearing down your body in the meanwhile.
Tabe's...i'm actually a bit confused right now at how to define it. It allows to "empty the tank" faster without raising the detectable power level, which actually sounds a bit strange to me. With Jaffur's trick, you're using the same amount of energy in the end. With Tabe i would expect it to be felt as higher, like the Kaioken. I do understand it's basically trading endurance for a burst of power, but i would expect it to be sensed as a higher power level.
it's possible the only reason Kakara could project herself to heaven and the other seers can't it's just that Kakara had his grandpa's permission (for a precious few minutes), and the others didn't.
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
So?
Fact remains Kakara was still subconsciously projecting herself out of her body years before she even realised she was doing it in the first place, before her powers were even awakened.
She ended up in heaven, but she may have ended up in other places if heaven hadn't opened up for her.