Does anyone else think we might want to ask about that?
Dragon Ball: After the End
[X] Decline, thank Yemma for his time, and make ready to leave. You'll return if you fulfill one of the first two conditions -- or alternatively, if you later feel like taking a crack at Hell.
-[X] Ask Yemma if you could make a short visit to Gohan now, even if only for a matter of minutes. Not to stay.
-[X] If so, do so. You... would very much like to see Jii-chan again.
-[X] If not, or if the price would be too high, jump to old friends.
[X] Decline, thank Yemma for his time, and leave. You'll return if you fulfill one of the first two conditions -- or alternatively, if you later feel like taking a crack at Hell. After leaving, jump to:
-[X] Old family.
[X][ASK] Lord Yemma, could I use ki telepathy to contact my ancestors in the afterlife?
[X][ASK] Dazarel, have you ever heard of a pair of spacefaring warriors who go by the names Lapis and Lazuli?
-[X] Ask Yemma if you could make a short visit to Gohan now, even if only for a matter of minutes. Not to stay.
-[X] If so, do so. You... would very much like to see Jii-chan again.
-[X] If not, or if the price would be too high, jump to old friends.
[X] Decline, thank Yemma for his time, and leave. You'll return if you fulfill one of the first two conditions -- or alternatively, if you later feel like taking a crack at Hell. After leaving, jump to:
-[X] Old family.
[X][ASK] Lord Yemma, could I use ki telepathy to contact my ancestors in the afterlife?
[X][ASK] Dazarel, have you ever heard of a pair of spacefaring warriors who go by the names Lapis and Lazuli?
Voikirium
SV's Estalia Guy
- Location
- Ruritania Illinois
- Pronouns
- He/Him
So all this talking about the Enemy has left me thinking-- specifically about how to deal with him.
One plan that might be worth keeping in our back pocket is essentially doing what Superman did to Mr. Mxyzptlk and tricking him into a dimensional portal and then turning that sucker off while he's half-way in. The biggest problem being finding an inter-dimensional portal.
One plan that might be worth keeping in our back pocket is essentially doing what Superman did to Mr. Mxyzptlk and tricking him into a dimensional portal and then turning that sucker off while he's half-way in. The biggest problem being finding an inter-dimensional portal.
WorthyAlchemist?
100% certifiably without-a-doubt mediocre
- Location
- That place...yeah that one
I don't see why that situation even has the threat of the Enemy attached to exclusively one option then. We can always play our cards wrong and by that logic we get dropped in front of the Enemy in whatever path we choose if we do some vague hypothetical "something" wrong. I'm not disputing bad things happening because of stupid or wrong decisions but in a vote with potentially dangerous but still not wrong options because of potential gains I don't see how being dropped near the Enemy is different from being dropped in front of the Enemy in terms of there being literally nothing good being able to be gained from either.
- Location
- The Great Beyond
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
I'll be honest, I don't see how you can expect 'relevancy for going away, getting stronger, and coming back to beat Dandeer' to include dropping us particularly in the vicinity of the Enemy.
Like, in dangerous places, yes- we have confirmation of that much with Hell. But near the Enemy specifically? I don't see it.
HoratioVonBecker
Imperfectly Aligned
[X] Decline, thank Yemma for his time, and make ready to leave. You'll return if you fulfill one of the first two conditions -- or alternatively, if you later feel like taking a crack at Hell.
-[X] Ask Yemma if you could make a short visit to Gohan now, even if only for a matter of minutes. Not to stay.
-[X] If so, do so. You... would very much like to see Jii-chan again.
-[X] If not, or if the price would be too high, jump to old friends.
[X] Decline, thank Yemma for his time, and make ready to leave. You'll return if you fulfill one of the first two conditions -- or alternatively, if you later feel like taking a crack at Hell.
-[X] Ask Yemma if you could make a short visit to Gohan now, even if only for a matter of minutes. Not to stay.
-[X] If so, do so. You... would very much like to see Jii-chan again.
-[X] If not, or if the price would be too high, jump to:
--[X] Old family.
--[X] Old enemies.
--[X] New friends.
--[X] New family.
--[X] New enemies.
--[X] Those below, if and only if that wouldn't take you down those stairs Yemma is showing you.
[X][ASK] Dazarel, have you ever heard of a pair of spacefaring warriors who go by the names Lapis and Lazuli?
[X][ASK] Lord Yemma, could I use ki telepathy to contact my ancestors in the afterlife?
[X][ASK] Lord Yemma, does King Kai's planet count as part of the space protected by the barrier?
New Question!
[X][ASK] Lord Yemma, has anyone else mastered the Spirit Saiyan form? If not, would that be enough to make me, on balance, not a security risk?
-[X] Ask Yemma if you could make a short visit to Gohan now, even if only for a matter of minutes. Not to stay.
-[X] If so, do so. You... would very much like to see Jii-chan again.
-[X] If not, or if the price would be too high, jump to old friends.
[X] Decline, thank Yemma for his time, and make ready to leave. You'll return if you fulfill one of the first two conditions -- or alternatively, if you later feel like taking a crack at Hell.
-[X] Ask Yemma if you could make a short visit to Gohan now, even if only for a matter of minutes. Not to stay.
-[X] If so, do so. You... would very much like to see Jii-chan again.
-[X] If not, or if the price would be too high, jump to:
--[X] Old family.
--[X] Old enemies.
--[X] New friends.
--[X] New family.
--[X] New enemies.
--[X] Those below, if and only if that wouldn't take you down those stairs Yemma is showing you.
[X][ASK] Dazarel, have you ever heard of a pair of spacefaring warriors who go by the names Lapis and Lazuli?
[X][ASK] Lord Yemma, could I use ki telepathy to contact my ancestors in the afterlife?
[X][ASK] Lord Yemma, does King Kai's planet count as part of the space protected by the barrier?
New Question!
[X][ASK] Lord Yemma, has anyone else mastered the Spirit Saiyan form? If not, would that be enough to make me, on balance, not a security risk?
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- Location
- Academy City
- Pronouns
- They
Spirit Saiyan is almost certainly not enough. it is, iirc, somewhere around 500 billion?
Yeah. we haven't seen the scaling, but that's late Buu arc level of strength, at least. For reference, however:
So at the death of earth, we had:
SG Gohan->SSjG Gohan -> SSjG Suicide Gohan (Way way above Spirit Saiyan)
G Piccolo (Way above Spirit Saiyan)
Pan (Extremely high since supposedly she was on track to become the strongest of them all; Way above Spirit Saiyan)
Uub (Unknown, almost certainly above spirit Saiyan)
+ literally dozens of the strongest fighters in the universe, the weakest of which are an order of magnitude above our (non shade) FPSSj.
If they contributed at all, we could probably contribute to a fight as well, but IIRC the enemy spent a lot of the fight toying with them and one shotted SSj2 Goten in the span of an instant, while fighting piccolo + gohan, and nearly did the same to uub at the beginning of the fight). Kakara almost certainly knows this as well.
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HoratioVonBecker
Imperfectly Aligned
That was with the Garenhuld population. With Yammar, it was about double our normal. With everyone from Heaven or Hell who is willing and able to donate?
Well, the dead outnumber the living.
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Honestly I'm not even sure how Super-Saiyan God forms stack up against Spirit Saiyan. We don't know what the upper limits on power are for the SSJ2 and SSJ3 forms. The lower bound for SSJ2 is somewhere in the neighborhood of, what, two billion?
I mean... assume the range from the 'bottom' to the fully mastered 'top' of SSJ2 is as broad as it is for the first level. That is, about a factor of seven and a half (from 150 or so, up to 1125). Then the 'top' of FPSSJ2 would be somewhere around fifteen billion.
Assuming for the sake of argument that the much more energy-intensive SSJ3 state is potentially even stronger than THAT, we might expect another redoubling of power (30 billion) followed by another 7.5-fold or eightfold increase (220-240 billion) as one fully masters the transformation.
We've done better than that.
It is not inconceivable to me that we could use Spirit Saiyan as a viable alternative to Super Saiyan God or even Blue, either with Garenhuld's current power supply, or with the power supply that would be available to us with more super-saiyans.
If we could duplicate the GT feat of concentrating all the power of the universe into a Spirit Bomb, I am very sure that would be enough.
I mean... assume the range from the 'bottom' to the fully mastered 'top' of SSJ2 is as broad as it is for the first level. That is, about a factor of seven and a half (from 150 or so, up to 1125). Then the 'top' of FPSSJ2 would be somewhere around fifteen billion.
Assuming for the sake of argument that the much more energy-intensive SSJ3 state is potentially even stronger than THAT, we might expect another redoubling of power (30 billion) followed by another 7.5-fold or eightfold increase (220-240 billion) as one fully masters the transformation.
We've done better than that.
It is not inconceivable to me that we could use Spirit Saiyan as a viable alternative to Super Saiyan God or even Blue, either with Garenhuld's current power supply, or with the power supply that would be available to us with more super-saiyans.
If we could duplicate the GT feat of concentrating all the power of the universe into a Spirit Bomb, I am very sure that would be enough.
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- Location
- Academy City
- Pronouns
- They
And yet, none of Gohan / Goku / King Kai / anyone else they taught has done so. Or, perhaps more tellingly, the gods *haven't* just gotten xeno / the super dragon balls to make a pair of arbitrarily high capacity Potara earrings, and sicked (probably more than) SSj2G Vegito on the problem (Or Vegehan, or whatever you'd call a goku / gohan fusion, or fusion with hit or jiren, or beerus, or whatever). Force alone might be a possible win, but I very strongly suspect that force *in addition* to something else is needed.
E: also your scaling is off, because the saiyans at ssj2 were "strong[er] by a wide margin" than the buu (between ssj2 and ssj3) level humans. Caps don't seem to be, like, 100% limits if you have enough means.
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Okay, but it's at least a reasonable question: "So, if we used THIS much brute force would that be enough? If not, how much is enough? Is no amount enough? Huh. Good to know."
EDIT:
EDIT:
I think we may be unique in the universe of having actually mastered the Spirit Saiyan form. There's no record of Goku using it without going berserk, and frankly Super Saiyan Blue is so much more controllable- and powerful enough to beat anything in this universe that ISN'T a god- that Gohan might reasonably have dismissed it as a dead end. Sort of like how the royals on Garenhuld stopped bothering with oozaru forms because super saiyan is stronger, and so never discovered the Golden Oozaru synergy between the forms until now.
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KnightDisciple
Love God. Do Right. Fear No Man.
- Location
- Midwest, USA
For those speculating about somehow getting all of Heaven to donate power for Spirit Saiyan:
How do you/we know our body wouldn't simply explode from that much power? We wielded a lot of power against Dazzy, but that's just a tiny fraction of what those in Heaven could provide, it's true.
How can you be so sure we can handle that much?
How do you/we know our body wouldn't simply explode from that much power? We wielded a lot of power against Dazzy, but that's just a tiny fraction of what those in Heaven could provide, it's true.
How can you be so sure we can handle that much?
- Location
- Academy City
- Pronouns
- They
I mean, yeah, it's a reasonable enough question I suppose. I'm just willing to bet a lot that we aren't going to get a useful answer, either because of the amount listed and/or because noone knows.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I'm not, but these are the questions we should be considering in the long run as we figure out how to face down the Enemy.
This isn't a course of action I'm proposing that we take right now. It's a strategy that sounds like, naively, it might have a prayer (literally) of success, and learning why it wouldn't work would in turn teach us things that would enable us to refine future strategies. The only way we're going to beat the Enemy is by learning about him, by talking to people who know something about his power and activities. Right now, the only people we know who fall in that category are the gods and the ancestors.
HoratioVonBecker
Imperfectly Aligned
Hey! I wonder what would happen if we used Spirit Saiyan with a god donor. Would it give us a permanent upgrade, or kill us?
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Either "the latter" or "neither," I suspect. For all I know god ki isn't even transferrable.
KnightDisciple
Love God. Do Right. Fear No Man.
- Location
- Midwest, USA
You ever put new wine in an old wineskin?
HoratioVonBecker
Imperfectly Aligned
Honestly, it seems like "it's another way to go SSG, perhaps only temporarily" is the answer, but I'm definitely curious.
(Anyone else interested in turning that into an [ASK] vote?)
HoratioVonBecker
Imperfectly Aligned
Nope. That said, I really doubt that Mastered Spirit Saiyan would ever cause us to harm ourselves with the powerup unless someone makes a poison-pill donation or something. More likely, there's just a hard limit to how much we can accept at one time.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Not me.
The answer will turn out to be "you'll need to convince someone with divine ki who thinks it might work without killing you to try it, because nobody who wasn't themselves a god has ever tried it before."
[ASK] votes aren't a magic wand; they only give us information we can easily obtain from people who we ourselves know, and who themselves know what we want to ask them.
Again, no evidence. Kaio-Ken is a very powerful technique, but even a master of it can blow themselves up by using it too hard.
Modus_Tollens
SCREAMING AT THE APOCALYPSE
- Location
- ALSO SCREAMING.
I think the main reason the problem isn't solved one way or the other is that Zeno is... being Zeno. Nobody is sure what the hell the tipping point is for Toddler Azathoth and so nobody is willing to make the first move if they don't have some assurance that they can pull it off cleanly. Even if you are capable of winning, Zeno might still make sure you lose. And there is both the Enemy's jamming to consider there and I'd assume some form of information quarantine, keeping what is known among the top brass, there.
I'm personally assuming that the truth is one of those really ugly things that will suck far more than the Enemy being "just" a powerful being. Whatever it is will be a gut punch, some monument to our sins or something that undermines the order of things that everyone has faith in.
But I'm not going to assume the top brass here is stupid. There is probably a damn war machine we aren't seeing.
I'm personally assuming that the truth is one of those really ugly things that will suck far more than the Enemy being "just" a powerful being. Whatever it is will be a gut punch, some monument to our sins or something that undermines the order of things that everyone has faith in.
But I'm not going to assume the top brass here is stupid. There is probably a damn war machine we aren't seeing.
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HoratioVonBecker
Imperfectly Aligned
It's Jaffur Black, isn't it.
Modus_Tollens
SCREAMING AT THE APOCALYPSE
- Location
- ALSO SCREAMING.
My first irrational fear was that it was Zeno. Or one of the Zenos, anyway. Boredom is the greatest enemy of the mighty so why not play a game with yourself? "Tag, you are it."
Azathoth is still the Nuclear Chaos no matter the form.
But who the hell knows. There are as many possibilities as there are nightmares, but its still fun to guess.
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
How is that NOT a rational fear, given the Tournament of Power as a reference point?
Ultra Instinct has been discussed, particularly in the context of terrifying grandma saiyan Bulma Kane looking as if she just might be on the verge of unlocking it herself.
The main problem is that we don't know what the prerequisites are, and Super indicates that one of them is "you have to be a god." Ki Control may help, as we DO have indications that it's correlated with graceful movement. But honestly my main reason to want to train up Ki Control would be in hopes of getting stamina bonuses or stealth bonuses. Not that I'm opposed to those, mind. Trouble is, Kakara already has Exceptional Ki Control to go with her 'ki prodigy' status, and the two higher ranks beyond that (Elite and Legendary) are unlocked by event trigger, not by raw training.
Sort of like how we've unlocked Elite Ki Sense (though not trained to that level) in two different ways already and not followed up for lack of time.