Dragon Ball: After the End

[Versharl]

Well, if you have no choices without downsides, you're going to choose the one with the most benefit relative to it's cost, right?

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Newsflash, perfect people are rare. (Just ask the expert, Perfect Cell )

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Is it really so unbelievable to you people that I'm just stating my opinion on a trait that I dislike. There's no deeper meaning to it, I literally just said "I dislike this trait and here's why." Why must that be some sort of statement on the inability of people to achieve perfection or wishing that we could replace the trait with one with different restrictions? I specifically said in my previous post(if either of you bothered to read it) that I knew we wouldn't realistically be able to replace our trait with something else due to the way the system works.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Hm.

Let me just underline some of the GOOD NEWS in this update:

Jaffur is down, as is his Synchronicity spell. The Senzus have arrived, and cut off Dandeer from her increasingly-probable seer support. Vegeta is incapacitated for the purposes of this vote, but returning to base form. Dandelor has arrived and is engaging Dandeer while her concentration is ruined. Apra is in control of the tempo of her fight, although it's not even remotely over yet. Berra has finished transforming and is devoting his focus to you exclusively.

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Oh, and in case somebody's wondering, the cookies went to resisting Berra's attack completely without injury, and to the Senzus' mental screaming, which is now debuffing Dandeer in addition to simply jamming communications. You are still at full capacity, and she is, particularly given Dandelor's incipient attack, not going to be up to much of anything. The cookies did not go to the obvious; they wouldn't have helped.

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1) We are in fact debuffing Dandeer. Her concentration is blown, which probably means whatever horrible spell she was prepping is hors de combat.

2) Dandeer's magic-based shielding is pretty thoroughly breached- Jaffur blew it up, and between her relative slowness and difficulty concentrating, there's a good chance that she'll be unable to repair it in time.

3) We've succeeded in depriving Dandeer of whatever external source of advice (probably Carrick) was enabling her to anticipate and block Super Saiyan attacks despite the utterly incredible speed disparity. We can hope that no one involved will nuke the Senzus, and as long as they're active, Dandeer has Problems.

4) Dandelor, who has been specifically preparing for this exact moment for a looong time, is about to go all Saiyan Gandalf on Dandeer. This may not be enough to stop her, but it further limits her as a threat.

5) Lord Vegeta's tail has been disintegrated. This will probably significantly impair Vegeta for the duration of the fight. Even after Lord Vegeta recovers his base form, he may be fighting well below par. He may even just be rolling around on the ground in pain for a few rounds yelling "FUCK YOU BERRA," although that is perhaps too much to hope for.

...

So this situation is BAD, but we're not screwed. Our offbeat tactics and attempts to debuff our opponents have in fact weakened them enough that they may have trouble recovering faster than we can exploit the opportunities thus opened up for us.

On the other hand, the situation IS still bad, because Giant Golden Monkey Dad is about to go King Kong on us.

 

[Aranfan]

Jaffur is going to be up soon, since I'm assuming House Senzu brought some Senzu. That means he'll be handling Vegeta shortly. Dandeer is confirmed to be super distracted by the senzu.

Time to play "Can't touch this" with Berra.

 

[Simon_Jester]

The catch is that Jaffur's unconscious and the Senzus can't get close without getting obliterated by Berra. There's explicitly a vote option for "get Jaffur to the Senzus for healing."

This might also be a good time to stress-test the limits of how effectively the mind control spell compels Berra to keep engaging a target that dances back out of range and disengages. Although in case he IS, we might want to plunk Jaffur down far enough from the Senzus that they're not so likely to be caught in the blast radius.

 

[Aranfan]

The catch is that Jaffur's unconscious and the Senzus can't get close without getting obliterated by Berra. There's explicitly a vote option for "get Jaffur to the Senzus for healing."

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Ah, in that case we need to get Jaffur to the Senzu for healing so we don't get outnumbered. Even if Vegea's balance is utterly wrecked by losing his tail, I don't like the idea of fighting him and Berra at once.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Yeah, no amount of agonizing butt-pain on Lord Vegeta's part is going to make that a fight we want to have.

I feel kind of foolish about "Attack under Jamming," but with the situation the way it is now, I think our only real options are:

1) Try to get Jaffur back in the fight. Synchronicity may have been a bust, but we still need him.

2) Go straight for Dandeer and flatten her; we MIGHT be able to pull it off now that she's vulnerable and no longer getting external Seer advice.

Blowing up Dandeer's lab might be an interesting wild-card option since it may well be that she's got pre-prepared runes or something down there powering whatever massive spells she might cast, but since that's a tacit disengagement that leaves Lord Berra free to blast the Senzus unopposed since they'll be the ONLY things attacking Dandeer even indirectly... yeah not so good a plan IMO.

 

[Cariyaga]

Hm... what about using our superior speed to spin off two clones: One at low(-ish) PL to get Jaffur to the Senzus, one that goes Giant Golden Monkey, and the other keeping Berra distracted?

 

[Simon_Jester]

Multiforming isn't fast, and our clones would be at such a low power level they would no longer have a speed advantage over Berra, while being so overwhelmingly less strong that he'd have little trouble disabling either clone.

 

[Cariyaga]

Multiforming isn't fast, and our clones would be at such a low power level they would no longer have a speed advantage over Berra, while being so overwhelmingly less strong that he'd have little trouble disabling either clone.

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I was under the impression we could have two effectively-full-power clones by using Oozaru?

And yes, that's why I said using our speed advantage to do so.

And the lattermost doesn't matter if there are then two near-full power clones taking him on.

 

[Wiadi]

Poptart, and I'm not saying this was a wrong choice, basically adjudicated that our "IT to zap Dandeer" gambit failed because we waited, to get in contact with the slowpoke normal saiyans. That gave Berra time to finish transforming and turn around.

In addition to this, my current perception is that course of action that involves us communicating with external allies or coordinating with them, due to the speed disadvantage, is likely to get us tripped up this way. By the time we finish explaining what we want, Berra gets another big nasty shot in.

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Worth noting that the delay wasn't just to talk to the Senzus, it was also for them to reach the hall. The time cost might be smaller if we're just waiting to communicate.

 

[PoptartProdigy]

@PoptartProdigy does Vegeta have any tail left? I'm pretty sure you only needed part/most of the tail removed to stop an Oozaru, and that tail stump should still be a weak point.

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It was blown off at the base.

He seemed remarkably contemptuous of Oozaru in general. I guess the question I'm really asking is why Jaffur still has a tail. (It's probably because he never tried going were-ape.)

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He was already pushing the limits of what he could get away with, in terms of justifying his abuse. Nobody was happy with what he was doing, but there was always the veneer of, "toughening up the boy," that kept people from dragging Yammar out of isolation and informing him of what was going on. Permanently maiming Jaffur would have been utterly unjustifiable by any measure, and Vegeta wouldn't have been able to get away with it.

Not gonna lie, it's a bit tricky to make effective use of pacifist traits when we get dropped in the middle of a battle due to the NPCs Leeeroy Jeeenkins-ing Dandeer and then standing around monologuing while she slaps down mind control spells on them or triggers pre-existing mind control.

This fight might still be going this poorly if we'd gotten a "so wait, how do we approach this" post where Kakara and the other royals huddle and plan their moves in the middle of the post that became Turnabout. Then again, it would have given us a better chance to leverage our real skills to best advantage.

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Again, no comment on this exact situation. It was possible to handle this some other way, but that required changes further upstream.

 

[Bakkasama]

Ok then. Usually, I would recommend either take down Vegeta while he can't defend himself or take Jaffur to be healed so that we can get number parity now that we are not constrained by Dandeer casting a spell. That said, either of those options leave Berra unengaged to potentially blow up the Senju. So it might be necessary to engage Berra. However, that still leaves Vegeta rejoining the fight the following turn. So we still need to find a way to take down Berra.

Now, as much as I don't think we can reliably break Berra out of his mind control with a will check, given the situation, I can understand if some want to try it as we engage. In which case, considering that Berra's foundational trait is atoner, which is geared to him trying to immediately make ammends for past mistakes, I would reccomend that, instead of trying to use the power of love and pray he doesn't want to hurt his daughter, we blast him with telepathy of the shit Dandeer has done and end it with this for extra guilt trip:

"Kakara, I need you to understand that this was for the best."

You sigh. And then, finally, look him in the eye.

He flinches slightly at the look you give him.

You stare him down for a moment, and then say, "You will never convince me that you did the right thing."

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You know, if we choose to go that way.

 

[Bommelom]

I was under the impression we could have two effectively-full-power clones by using Oozaru?

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We can have a normal Oozaru clone and a normal Saiyan clone at the same time, but only one of those will be able to go Super Saiyan/Golden Oozaru.

 

[Bakkasama]

Also, as we have seen, the Oozaru transformation takes one round of combat.

 

[Gore17]

So, basic ideas are:
1) TK Berra's tail.
2) Send Berra telepathic memories of Dandeer's wrong-doings, in hope of breaking her control.
3) If Berra and Vegeta are both distracted, Power Ball Dandeer.

Removing Berra from play is the important thing. If Berra can't stop the Senzu from getting to Jaffur, then they'll be able to restore him to combat. Vegeta losing his tail might cause him to be operating at non-peak efficiency, but we can't rely on that.

 

[KaintukeeBob]

So, basic ideas are:
1) TK Berra's tail.
2) Send Berra telepathic memories of Dandeer's wrong-doings, in hope of breaking her control.
3) If Berra and Vegeta are both distracted, Power Ball Dandeer.

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*raised eyebrows*

Really? Because I suggested a different strategy which explicitly played to our Gentle, Pacifist nature (and yes, I know those were subsumed into Protector, but that doesn't mean they aren't still part of Kakara's personality).

That said, your point 2 would help it...

Now, as much as I don't think we can reliably break Berra out of his mind control with a will check, given the situation, I can understand if some want to try it as we engage. In which case, considering that Berra's foundational trait is atoner, which is geared to him trying to immediately make ammends for past mistakes, I would reccomend that, instead of trying to use the power of love and pray he doesn't want to hurt his daughter, we blast him with telepathy of the shit Dandeer has done and end it with this for extra guilt trip:

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Yeah, this would be a good way to help him if we chose to shonen it up. Such as waiting for him to be making an attack at us, then stopping and detransforming down to 80,00,000 (where he can see it) and hitting him with Telepathy Bullets as you describe.

High(est) Risk, High(est) Reward.

If it succeeds, we get Berra onto our side, and this battle becomes 3 (or 4, if Jaffur recovers) SSJ vs 2, and the only current Lord who is capable of acting in his proper mind is here and can deliver Judgement, as is his right under the law.

It's a much better idea than trying to Deceit our Dad (by faking IT or speed-IT), fight our Dad (remember, he has Mastered at least one style, we have not), or risk our Dad not having trained his tail.

 

[Simon_Jester]

The problem is that if it doesn't work, we get blown the hell up. Gambling on the mind control spell being weaker than Berra's unwillingness to harm us when Berra is already punching us seems... a bit risky to me.

The lower-risk, possibly lower-reward strategy of getting Jaffur to the Senzus for healing frankly appeals to me more, as does pressing the attack on Dandeer and hoping she has no further defensive capability. If we can dodge one more attack from Berra and get a Dodonpa off at Dandeer, that might end this here and now.

Again, no comment on this exact situation. It was possible to handle this some other way, but that required changes further upstream.

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Just to be clear, you're saying it would have required changes further upstream for us to get a 'planning session' vote after we'd brought Berra on-side but before confronting Dandeer?

 

[PoptartProdigy]

Just to be clear, you're saying it would have required changes further upstream for us to get a 'planning session' vote after we'd brought Berra on-side but before confronting Dandeer?

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I'm saying that if you wanted a last-minute planning session, you needed to object to the overall plan of confronting Berra ASAP after freeing Jaffur. Remember: Berra doesn't sit on realizations that he's acted against the good guy type. He tries to fix it, diving in to do so even where a more measured perspective would hesitate. He can't tolerate the idea that he's done wrong. He's otherwise quite patient, but that is his trigger, and he cannot sit on the realization that something has tripped it.

He's a deconstructed shounen protagonist, in other words. Massive hero complex. Unless physically restrained and then talked down, he was going to go straight for Dandeer no matter what. And frankly, the original plan relied on that, given that every resource the conspiracy had was adamant that with Berra on-side, there was nothing Dandeer could do to resist the level of force you were bringing. Literal psychic and magical advice all agreed that you had absolute freedom to act with impunity, and that there was absolutely no resistance she could muster. Given that assurance, everybody was of the opinion that blitzing was the best idea, since it would have this over and done with soonest.

Unfortunately, as seems increasingly-apparent, your largest source of advice regarding Dandeer's ability to resist you was compromised, your secondary source of advice was convinced that she couldn't subvert a super saiyan with no prep, and nobody anticipated that she'd gotten to Yammar at some point (Kakara is shoving the thought aside for the moment, in order to focus on the fight, but she really wants to know when and how the hell that happened).

 

[Bakkasama]

*raised eyebrows*

Really? Because I suggested a different strategy which explicitly played to our Gentle, Pacifist nature (and yes, I know those were subsumed into Protector, but that doesn't mean they aren't still part of Kakara's personality).

That said, your point 2 would help it...



Yeah, this would be a good way to help him if we chose to shonen it up. Such as waiting for him to be making an attack at us, then stopping and detransforming down to 80,00,000 (where he can see it) and hitting him with Telepathy Bullets as you describe.

High(est) Risk, High(est) Reward.

If it succeeds, we get Berra onto our side, and this battle becomes 3 (or 4, if Jaffur recovers) SSJ vs 2, and the only current Lord who is capable of acting in his proper mind is here and can deliver Judgement, as is his right under the law.

It's a much better idea than trying to Deceit our Dad (by faking IT or speed-IT), fight our Dad (remember, he has Mastered at least one style, we have not), or risk our Dad not having trained his tail.

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Also, besides what Simon said in the post above and as I pointed before, by that point he would be so much faster than us that he could grab us before we could react, ending the fight without hurting us since FPSS is not strong enough to escape GO once grabbed. That fullfills both Dandeer's orders and any subconscious unwillingness he would have of hurting us without breaking the mind control. Assuming he has enough control to stop his attack once launched.

 

[HoratioVonBecker]

nobody anticipated that she'd gotten to Yammar at some point (Kakara is shoving the thought aside for the moment, in order to focus on the fight, but she really wants to know when and how the hell that happened)

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Did you seriously make Every Darn Vegetan Moral Failing Dandeer's fault?

 

[Khettien]

Is...there a reason we shouldn't fake an instant transmission, pop a Solar Flare instead, then IT and knock out Dandeer? I mean, we've got Berra's full attention, Vegeta is busy, and Dandeer is dazed anyway - that seems like a perfect moment for Solar Flare, as none of them would be expecting it anymore.

 

[Lailoken]

The potential for the Seer to start aiding one of the other royals now really clinches this. We don't have a good counter. It looks as if we are left with attempting the rainbows and unicorns Hail Mary of leveraging Kakara's communication, pacifism, and strong family bond to try to break through to Berra.

Yeah. And if Lord Vegeta didn't train his oozaru form to get control of it, it's far from certain that his tail is trained.

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I don't believe it to be wise to bet that a first-hand survivor of a violent Super Saiyan rebellion which killed his grandfather and led to the worst experience of his life has left open such a glaring weakness. I'd be astonished if tail training wasn't a mandatory part of the royal curriculum in the same way as FPSS.

 

[PoptartProdigy]

Did you seriously make Every Darn Vegetan Moral Failing Dandeer's fault?

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*bitter laughter*

No.

 

[Gore17]

Did you seriously make Every Darn Vegetan Moral Failing Dandeer's fault?

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Where did you get that implication?

The potential for the Seer to start aiding one of the other royals now really clinches this. We don't have a good counter. It looks as if we are left with attempting the rainbows and unicorns Hail Mary of leveraging Kakara's communication, pacifism, and strong family bond to try to break through to Berra.

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That really depends on how Dandeer is communicating with the Seer. Telepathy can't reach into the Hall, but they might be using magic or an application of the Sight. So it really comes down to "can the connection be switched to one of the Super Saiyans".

If Dandeer was maintaining a connection through her control over the Seer(s), then probably not.

I don't believe it to be wise to bet that a first-hand survivor of a violent Super Saiyan rebellion which killed his grandfather and led to the worst experience of his life has left open such a glaring weakness. I'd be astonished if tail training wasn't a mandatory part of the royal curriculum in the same way as FPSS.

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It's not mandatory. We know it's not mandatory.

 

[Lailoken]

That really depends on how Dandeer is communicating with the Seer. Telepathy can't reach into the Hall, but they might be using magic or an application of the Sight. So it really comes down to "can the connection be switched to one of the Super Saiyans".

If Dandeer was maintaining a connection through her control over the Seer(s), then probably not.

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That's something I thought of right after I posted. We know that wards block ki, and that they at least can block sight. If she's getting fed by a seer there is a good chance that the call is coming from inside the house. In that case, there's a chance that somebody could find them and shut them down.