Dragon Ball: After the End

[KaintukeeBob]

Wow the character we're playing doesn't want to murder people what a pain in the ass am I right?

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To be fair, for an amoral character the entire quest would have been far simpler. Dandeer wouldn't have done anything if we'd simply executed her when she was trying to Seal Jaffur, or when we had the discussion with her in private, or if we'd simply eliminated all the scouts and the dragon and anyone who questioned us.

But then we skirt that fine line between 'hero' and 'someone heroes try to stop'.

 

[Bommelom]

Okay. Since we're working with Clan Senzu, I'm currently leaning towards trying to simply get Jaffur a senzu bean and get this back into a 3vs3 fight (due to instant transmission, it should be hard for Berra to stop us). On the other hand, that'd might lead to Berra/Vegeta getting rid of Dandelor, which is bad.

Then again, in that situation, we could probably go for massed Gokun sorcerers instead of Dandelor, since they'd probably be quite willing to kick the shit out of Dandeer once they find out she's mind controlling Berra.

Also, do we know if Apra can do Instant Transmission? If she can, we could potentially grab both Dandeer and Jaffur and get the fuck away, and since Dandeer's only Instant Transmissioner is Berra, she wouldn't be able to effectively follow us. Of course, that'd still be leaving Raditz and the rest of the Senzus to die, which I really don't want to do.

If we're just going to fight on, though, I'd try to get rid of Vegeta rather than Dandeer (in so far that Dandelor can counter Dandeer but probably won't be enough to cover a 2vs3 Super Saiyan difference), since a knocked out Dandeer won't help us in the long run.

 

[Wiadi]

If we're just going to fight on, though, I'd try to get rid of Vegeta rather than Dandeer (in so far that Dandelor can counter Dandeer but probably won't be enough to cover a 2vs3 Super Saiyan difference), since a knocked out Dandeer won't help us in the long run.

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Well, with Dandeer out of the picture, Dandelor could instead turn his efforts to neutralizing her mind control spell. Which would, after a fashion, address the 2v3 Super Saiyan issue. That said, I'm not entirely sure how we plan to reach Dandeer or Vegeta around Berra - Instant Transmission has a visible gesture that takes time to execute, and I'm not sure our speed advantage is enough to give us time for it.

Hmm. If we could somehow get a Solar Flare off on Berra, maybe that would give us the window we need? Might give Vegeta time to finish transforming though, in which case we're back to having basically the same problem.

 

[HoratioVonBecker]

That is alot more smarts then I was expecting or hoped for.

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Yeah. Speaking of which, I found Vegeta Vegeta going berserk to be both hilarious and strange - if he never learned to control Oozaru, why does he still have a tail?

Not all interactions are on-screen, plus it was shortly after this that everyone discovered that we could split Garenhuld with an errant blink. I don't think they're teasing us much...

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Huh? I don't follow.

 

[Bommelom]

Well, with Dandeer out of the picture, Dandelor could instead turn his efforts to neutralizing her mind control spell. Which would, after a fashion, address the 2v3 Super Saiyan issue. That said, I'm not entirely sure how we plan to reach Dandeer or Vegeta around Berra - Instant Transmission has a visible gesture that takes time to execute, and I'm not sure our speed advantage is enough to give us time for it.

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If we use Instant Transmission, though, he can't sense whether we're going for Dandeer or Vegeta, which means that he might prepare to protect the wrong one, and since Golden Oozaru is slower than we are, if he's protecting Vegeta we can then go for Dandeer instead. I'm also not sure if Golden Oozaru Berra can even DO anything if we Instant Transmit next to Dandeer or Vegeta in a way that he'll have to shoot through them to get at us. Non-Oozaru Berra could deal with this by using Instant Transmission himself, but I don't think Oozaru Berra is fast enough to counter our Instant Transmission with another.

..Also, just realized that you were afraid of Berra preventing us from using Instant Transmission in the first place rather than antipicating it, in which case I'm pretty sure it doesn't take longer than a punch and/or a ki blast (Goku used sucessfully Instant Transmission in his fight with Cell, who was faster than he was, for once).

So, something like this, maybe?

[] Write-in: Fight on. You can still win this.
-[] Try to get around your father and take down Vegeta before he returns to base form. If you can even the numbers, you can still salvage this.
--[] Try to Instant Transmit next to Vegeta so that he will be between you and Berra.
---[] If Berra intercepts you, try to turn it into a feint and immediately go for Dandeer instead.

Hopefully Instant Transmitting would make Berra focus on a possible attack on Dandeer rather than Vegeta, and even if not, having Vegeta as a meatshield between us should prevent Berra from simply aiming a blast where he predicts we're going to Instant Transmit.

Of course, there's the risk Berra might simply attack through Vegeta to get to us (though I don't think that's likely), and I'm also afraid that adding a contingency about going for Dandeer might make the initial attack on Vegeta less likely to succeed in the first place due to Kakara's attention being split.

The whole using Vegeta as a possible meatshield might also be unnecessary detail in the first place and prevent Kakara from flying if that's the most efficient way of getting Vegeta, though I don't think that's likely either.

We could also just try to do a feint (pretend to attack Vegeta, then go for Dandeer) in the first place, but then I'm afraid that Berra might see through it.

 

[Lailoken]

What do I try? It was such a simple plan. It would have been so easy...



Let's take yet another shot at being smart about this: one of the Super Saiyans needs to go down this round before Vegeta recovers. Ideally, it would be Yammar, because there's a chance that Vegeta's little episode of madness shook him free, but somebody needs to be put out of the fight right now.

 

[Gore17]

And once again Kakaras pacifistic BS makes things far far harder then it has to be.

Honestly I have no idea why I'm still reading this beyond wanting to see Dandelor finally fucking die.

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I don't agree with @Nix's Warden's tone but I do echo his sentiment about Kakara's pacifism. At this point, Kakara is endangering the entirety of Exile society due to her unwillingness to kill a mass-murdering psychopath who's currently casting an unknown spell which will do who knows what. It seems to me that Kakara would rather let Dandeer cast this spell, which might cause another wave of mind control that would let her get away with murdering thousands, than kill her. My point is that the fact that Kakara doesn't want to kill her opponents is admirable but that she refuses to do so is immensely selfish and pig-headed. I respect that this is the result of character development throughout the story and I know at this point things aren't going to change due to the trait-system but it's one of the things I find most annoying about her as a character.

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Or we could, you know, work with pacifism, rather then try and fight it constantly, and thus causing problems?

Remember our first encounter with the scouts?

Pacifist would not be nearly as much a problem if we all got into the habit of playing to it.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

Or we could, you know, work with pacifism, rather then try and fight it constantly, and thus causing problems?

Remember our first encounter with the scouts?

Pacifist would not be nearly as much a problem if we all got into the habit of playing to it.

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There is no way this encounter would have been made easier by leaning into pacifism - it's a straight-up fight. Instead, we see it taking what should have been a huge advantage - Jaffur's brilliant spell - and twisting it into a disadvantage large enough to fuck us over massively.

You can argue that we should be leaning into pacifism for thematic reasons/because you like Batman ethics/because that's the character we're stuck with, but claiming it would be easier is nonsense.

 

[Cariyaga]

There is no way this encounter would have been made easier by leaning into pacifism - it's a straight-up fight. Instead, we see it taking what should have been a huge advantage - Jaffur's brilliant spell - and twisting it into a disadvantage large enough to fuck us over massively.

You can argue that we should be leaning into pacifism for thematic reasons/because you like Batman ethics/because that's the character we're stuck with, but claiming it would be easier is nonsense.

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We could have leaned into it by mind-diving Berra instead, and it's quite possible that would have made things substantially easier.

 

[Yorick's Skull]

I hope we go for a semi-lethal direct Distraction/Attack on Dandeer.

Crush limbs+throat instead of tearing off her head.

We have Dandelor to Stabilize her fof RETRIBUTION purposes.

If one questons his motivation to do the above.
The dude has lived with his hate long enough to imagine fates worse than dead.

We would be a Seer boosted SSJ with support going straight for her. We might be able to rocket through.

I would hate to lose our trait, but her preparations are bringing her dangerously close to a Dad vs her choice.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

We could have leaned into it by mind-diving Berra instead, and it's quite possible that would have made things substantially easier.

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...You want to go on a mind-dive with the master mind controlling Mind Sorcerer on the field? That would be insanely risky, to the degree that I don't really think you can claim it's likely it would have made things easier.

(Beyond the obvious caveat that this plan failed, so any other plan with a chance to succeed is in hindsight better.)

 

[Lailoken]

All these plans are too complicated. Remember that this is a character which the thread has already decided can't be trusted to yell and punch at the same time.

 

[Cariyaga]

...Now that Dandeer's silenced from her assistance, is there any reason we can't power ball her again?

 

[Deathbybunnies]

...Now that Dandeer's silenced from her assistance, is there any reason we can't power ball her again?

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I'm pretty sure she has her eyes closed from the last one.

 

[Bakkasama]

Ok then, let's set objectives.

The situation: Vegeta is still out for 1 round. Berra is GO between us and Dandeer. Apra is slowly pushing back Yammar, Jaffur is unconscious and Dandeer can't cast spells or receive seer warning because the Senzu are signal jamming. Dandelor is doing something.

From where I am standing, we have 2 combatants in Apra and us. The enemy has 2 and will have 3 after this round. So unless we want to be overwhelmed the round after next, we have three options:

1) Take down one of their fighters in one round so that we are at two vs two.
2) Take Jaffur to be healed so that we are at 3 vs 3 the following round.
3) Beat Dandeer in 1 round.

Now, considering how previous rounds went we might want 1 or 2. That said, Dandeer's shield is down and she is in no position to cast or receive forewarning BUT stopping Dandeer would probably do nothing for the mind controlled saiyans unlessshe dies. If she doesn't, they will likely try to save her and we won't have changed much other than getting rid of a timer for the fight. Unless we are planning for a hostage negotiation.

@PoptartProdigy do we know if Berra trained his tail after the sealing? Also, can saiyans sense and react to ki based telekinesis? How fast is it? I am trying to determine if we can feasebly grab Berra's tail on a telekinetic grip.

Though even if it works, either him or Vegeta will likely cut it...

 

[Gore17]

There is no way this encounter would have been made easier by leaning into pacifism - it's a straight-up fight. Instead, we see it taking what should have been a huge advantage - Jaffur's brilliant spell - and twisting it into a disadvantage large enough to fuck us over massively.

You can argue that we should be leaning into pacifism for thematic reasons/because you like Batman ethics/because that's the character we're stuck with, but claiming it would be easier is nonsense.

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Easier then what we've been dealing with ignoring? Absolutely.

People keep treating it as something to plan around, or an obstacle they need to beat, rather then working with it.

But then, everyone is going to ignore this. It's not like I have a track record of being right and ignored, right? And not like we haven't repeatedly punished for going against Kakara's characterisation, right?

 

[Bakkasama]

Please, let's not start an 'I told you so' competition or complain about characterisation or perceived competence of the characters. It is not productive and a way to get nowhere fast.

Can we focus on what we need and how to get it instead? We have to strip Dandeer's defenses. We dealt somewhat with the seer (until Dandeer thinks of a way to seal the extra noise and manages to gather her concentration or thinks about ordering the GO to blast the Senzu) and she can't concentrate into spells at the moment so we don't have the timer we had at the begining of the fight when she was already mid casting. Her magic shield is also down. That means that if we deal with her bodyguards, that should be it but that since they have shown they can think, they can still protect her if unconcious. That would only make it so she can't add more complications and we still would have to either beat the mind controled ones or stall until Dandelor finds a solution.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

Easier then what we've been dealing with ignoring? Absolutely.

People keep treating it as something to plan around, or an obstacle they need to beat, rather then working with it.

But then, everyone is going to ignore this. It's not like I have a track record of being right and ignored, right? And not like we haven't repeatedly punished for going against Kakara's characterisation, right?

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It is explicitly an obstacle. It's entire function is to restrict what we can do - it offers no benefits (beyond arguably characterisation if you like Batman ethics) and opens no doors. It is especially unhelpful in situations like this one where the enemy is extremely dangerous and would be difficult to hold alive - even in this very update where we made no votes regarding lethality it has once again fucked us over*. It's a restriction on the character we're playing which can be interesting, but in practice like all restrictions it is often intensely irritating.

I have not noticed your voting track record being particularly stellar, but I admit I wasn't really keeping track beyond you generally voting for things no one else does.

I typed up a long whiny rant, and deleted it, because that's not really fair. But these last few updates have sapped my enthusiasm more than things going wrong in a quest usually do for several reasons**, so I think I'm just gonna bail on this for a bit.

*For fuck's sake Jaffur, couldn't you have just knocked the bitch out and decided later?
**Though funnily enough not the fact that the villain uses mind control, which seems particularly contentious.

 

[Terrabrand]

- it offers no benefits

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Social benefits. Like. I'm reasonably sure Gohan likes us as much as he does for being a pacifist and stuff.

Also, it was an inbuilt trait of Kakara, and we've been seeing what some of Jaffur's in built problems are recently. Like, maybe it would have been possible to eliminate painlessly if people had voted in such ways, but I really don't agree with the idea that it's all downside, no updside.

 

[Cariyaga]

I'm really not sure why people would read a story about a pacifist saiyan if not for the PACIFIST saiyan. Like, that's why I read this (excellent writing aside) -- it's what hooked me and drew me in.

 

[HoratioVonBecker]

But then, everyone is going to ignore this. It's not like I have a track record of being right and ignored, right? And not like we haven't repeatedly punished for going against Kakara's characterisation, right?

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Hey - coming from my catching-up binge here, I only think it's caused issues once. Of course, I apparently have a different view of Kakara's mindset than Poptart does.

Social benefits. Like. I'm reasonably sure Gohan likes us as much as he does for being a pacifist and stuff.

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It may also have made Dazarel's sealing easier, and it's certainly been critical to getting the Scouts on-side. Which has in turn given knowledge of spaceship construction, and that's only a side benefit.
Oh! And there was the Ki Overcharge thing, which was probably easier to extract from Taro because he wasn't worried we were about to kill him.

 

[Cariyaga]

Hey - coming from my catching-up binge here, I only think it's caused issues once. Of course, I apparently have a different view of Kakara's mindset than Poptart does.

It may also have made Dazarel's sealing easier, and it's certainly been critical to getting the Scouts on-side. Which has in turn given knowledge of spaceship construction, and that's only a side benefit.
Oh! And there was the Ki Overcharge thing, which was probably easier to extract from Taro because he wasn't worried we were about to kill him.

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For reference, the pacifist trait that informs Kakara's mindset:

Protector [Foundational Trait]: Meerak forced you to confront the question of what kind of person you really are. It was a painful year, figuring out the answer, but now you have it. You have your powers so that you can keep people safe. Everybody. Even those who don't want to be. People who are working to hurt others need to be stopped, but that doesn't mean you need to sink to their level. At the end of the day, the wicked need to be stopped, but you aren't them -- and you won't become them. That might mean that you need to talk them down, or it might mean that you need to fight. So be it. But no matter what, you know one thing about yourself: Thou shalt not kill. You gain heavy vote weighting against the use of lethal force on sapient beings, and will never default to it of your own will, even against Hated Enemies. The use of lethal force will never be presented as a default option; the players must write such options in if they want them. However, Kakara now gains a moderate bonus on all checks made in service of actions taken to protect the lives or safety of others. You no longer encounter barriers or penalties to combat skill training. This trait may, still, be developed further. There are no exceptions to this trait. Kakara will never think killing is morally right, or that anybody deserves death, even if that is written in. The players can make Kakara kill somebody. They cannot make her think it was the right thing to do.

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[Terrabrand]

For reference, the pacifist trait that informs Kakara's mindset:

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That actually reminds me- our evolving of pacifist has given us a defacto bonus to combat ski!l training, since if we had simply sat on gentle or whatever it started as we'd still suffer penalties and barriers to combat skill training.

 

[KaintukeeBob]

I wonder how effective Vegeta will be without his tail. Remember, Berra destroyed it.

@PoptartProdigy - this seems to be a question that Kakara would know the answer to: how effective have Saiyan warriors been in Gerenhuld's past shortly after the unexpected removal of their tails? Does it matter if they've trained their tails?

If losing his tail puts Vegeta at, say, a 10% malus, he could be somewhat discounted as a threat (though, as always, style training closes the gap).

 

[QTesseract]

And once again Kakaras pacifistic BS makes things far far harder then it has to be.

Honestly I have no idea why I'm still reading this beyond wanting to see Dandelor finally fucking die.

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I don't agree with @Nix's Warden's tone but I do echo his sentiment about Kakara's pacifism. At this point, Kakara is endangering the entirety of Exile society due to her unwillingness to kill a mass-murdering psychopath who's currently casting an unknown spell which will do who knows what. It seems to me that Kakara would rather let Dandeer cast this spell, which might cause another wave of mind control that would let her get away with murdering thousands, than kill her. My point is that the fact that Kakara doesn't want to kill her opponents is admirable but that she refuses to do so is immensely selfish and pig-headed. I respect that this is the result of character development throughout the story and I know at this point things aren't going to change due to the trait-system but it's one of the things I find most annoying about her as a character.

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It is explicitly an obstacle. It's entire function is to restrict what we can do - it offers no benefits (beyond arguably characterisation if you like Batman ethics) and opens no doors. It is especially unhelpful in situations like this one where the enemy is extremely dangerous and would be difficult to hold alive - even in this very update where we made no votes regarding lethality it has once again fucked us over*. It's a restriction on the character we're playing which can be interesting, but in practice like all restrictions it is often intensely irritating.

Click to shrink...

There is no way this encounter would have been made easier by leaning into pacifism - it's a straight-up fight. Instead, we see it taking what should have been a huge advantage - Jaffur's brilliant spell - and twisting it into a disadvantage large enough to fuck us over massively.

You can argue that we should be leaning into pacifism for thematic reasons/because you like Batman ethics/because that's the character we're stuck with, but claiming it would be easier is nonsense.

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Non-obvious opinion: Pacifism is a straight buff.

Not on it's own, but compare this to any of the other saiyan traits we could have picked up. Imagine if, instead of dealing with a protector trait, we had to deal with Goku's Battle Lust, or kid Trunk's immaturity (for his age, considering we're still kids but compare to same age kid trunks), or Vegeta's supreme arrogance / complexes, or Gotenks' arrogance / refusal to be serious, or Mirai Trunk's... well, maybe not M. Trunks as much, his might be better for our purposes, but even he had his moments in cell arc. If you think our options are constricted because we'd rather imprison and seal then kill (when we have sorcerers actually capable of doing that, mind), imagine if we had to let our enemies go and train to beat us, or if we just let them power up, or if we spent all our fights jobbing.