Dragon Ball: After the End

[PoptartProdigy]

Alright, let's see how bad it got.

Huh. Much better! Maybe I should make a habit of being elsewhere immediately after posting something going wrong for you all.

@PoptartProdigy is there any reason we can't just instant transmission into Dandeers face and head butt her out (not kill just knock out?)

I mean you said it yourself she isn't going to be doing much of anything.

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Berra is no longer mid-transformation, and is in fact paying you his full attention. There's no reason you can't, but he might guess that you're about to do it once you raise your fingers to your forehead.

That is alot more smarts then I was expecting or hoped for.

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Berra's failures and mistakes are a huge part of the setup for this setting, and a lot of people have felt secure in concluding that the reason for this is that he's an utter incompetent devoid of intelligence or initiative. They get quite vocal about it, which tends to filter out into the rest of the discussion. That's more or less how socialization works, and I'm not really surprised by it. I stopped trying to let people know that the issue is somewhat more complex a long time ago, given that it has zero visible impact on the sentiment.

Of course, I am neither afflicted by this nor obliged to act like I buy it, given that I am the person who built Berra, and thus installed all of the hangups which actually led to those failures. And I'm the one who decides what he does from moment to moment.

I meant how you'd intended to phase the bonuses out entirely, but appear to have changed your mind. I assume the specificity was important?

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Huh. I actually can't remember deciding to phase out bonuses. Why would I do that? I genuinely cannot remember.

In any event, they're back in, if they were ever out.

Yeah. Speaking of which, I found Vegeta Vegeta going berserk to be both hilarious and strange - if he never learned to control Oozaru, why does he still have a tail?

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VEGETA: (With a disturbed look on his face): ...because it's one of my limbs, you nut job!

(Poptart points to the third-leftmost tag.)

There is no way this encounter would have been made easier by leaning into pacifism - it's a straight-up fight. Instead, we see it taking what should have been a huge advantage - Jaffur's brilliant spell - and twisting it into a disadvantage large enough to fuck us over massively.

You can argue that we should be leaning into pacifism for thematic reasons/because you like Batman ethics/because that's the character we're stuck with, but claiming it would be easier is nonsense.

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Nah, Gore's pretty right, here. No comment on the current mess -- that's the result of a confluence of many factors only partially under your control, and anybody claiming that a single change in voting habits would have prevented this, you may ignore -- but in terms of a general trend? Yeah, the base tends to ignore or disdain a foundational trait, and that hamstrings you ("Cognitive Dissonance.").

It's not like getting rid of it would change that, anyway. You'd just get a new trait with different restrictions. Jaffur's makes him default to excessive or lethal force when he's angry!

Wanna switch?

@PoptartProdigy do we know if Berra trained his tail after the sealing? Also, can saiyans sense and react to ki based telekinesis? How fast is it? I am trying to determine if we can feasebly grab Berra's tail on a telekinetic grip.

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You do not know if he's trained. Ki users can sense and react to TK, although it's a short window. The issue is that it's easier to break TK than a physical grip. Of course, if Berra's tail is still a vulnerability, he won't have it in him to muster even that much...

I wonder how effective Vegeta will be without his tail. Remember, Berra destroyed it.

@PoptartProdigy - this seems to be a question that Kakara would know the answer to: how effective have Saiyan warriors been in Gerenhuld's past shortly after the unexpected removal of their tails? Does it matter if they've trained their tails?

If losing his tail puts Vegeta at, say, a 10% malus, he could be somewhat discounted as a threat (though, as always, style training closes the gap).

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Losing a limb is a massively traumatic experience, and few people are at their best in the aftermath. Kakara would be (physically) fine, as we've seen, but she's trained.

 

[Cariyaga]

So when Kakara was training resistance to her tail being harmed, there was no indication given as to whether Berra had had or got similar training? I'd have thought there'd be some indication there?

@PoptartProdigy Are Dandeer's eyes closed at the moment?

 

[Andres]

Dandeer's shield doesn't cover the floor she's standing on. If we go under her, we can grab the floor she's on and rocket her into space faster than she or Berra can react.

 

[chryssalideater]

Ok look it could be much worse. Enemy seer support is now cut off and Dabdeer is currently not preparing some new form of bullshit.

EDIT: Hey is it just me or is it a little weird we haven't tried to create new techniques for non-lethal takedowns?

 

[PoptartProdigy]

So when Kakara was training resistance to her tail being harmed, there was no indication given as to whether Berra had had or got similar training? I'd have thought there'd be some indication there?

@PoptartProdigy Are Dandeer's eyes closed at the moment?

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People don't really talk about tail training. Also, Kakara and Berra didn't speak much, the first year of the quest. Could've easily slipped under the radar.

She's kinda dazed, so it depends on the second.

 

[Cariyaga]

She's kinda dazed, so it depends on the second.

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Could Kakara form another power ball in the time-dilated time that her eyes were open?

 

[chryssalideater]

@PoptartProdigy apologies if this has already been asked, but would it be possible at some future point for Kakara to try to create techniques focused around nonlethal takedowns?

EDIT: Or incapacitating like solar flare, or tiring opponents out, or really anything that synergizes with our Pacifist trait?

 

[PoptartProdigy]

Could Kakara form another power ball in the time-dilated time that her eyes were open?

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Possibly.

@PoptartProdigy apologies if this has already been asked, but would it be possible at some future point for Kakara to try to create techniques focused around nonlethal takedowns?

EDIT: Or incapacitating like solar flare, or tiring opponents out, or really anything that synergizes with our Pacifist trait?

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She has some of those already, but yes.

 

[chryssalideater]

Hey cool maybe we should work on that so that the next time a scenario like this comes up we have a way of reliably taking down the main bad guy with out compromising our ethics

 

[Wiadi]

Dandeer's shield doesn't cover the floor she's standing on. If we go under her, we can grab the floor she's on and rocket her into space faster than she or Berra can react.

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I don't think she even has a shield any more, at this point our main obstacle to dealing with her is Berra (and the fact that taking Dandeer out may not solve our mind-controlled Saiyan situation immediately).

 

[Blonddude42]

@PoptartProdigy does Vegeta have any tail left? I'm pretty sure you only needed part/most of the tail removed to stop an Oozaru, and that tail stump should still be a weak point.

 

[ilbgar123]

Here's an idea, pretend to be about to IT (just doing the incredibly recognizable gesture shouldn't be all the much of a drain on her mental resources) and then grab his tail with Ki Telekinesis when he goes to protect Dandeer. If he's incapacitated, rip it off. If not, we'll try something else.

 

[HoratioVonBecker]

If he's incapacitated, rip it off. If not, we'll try something else.

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If he's incapacitated, why would we stop? (I mean, besides not wanting to hurt him.)

VEGETA: (With a disturbed look on his face): ...because it's one of my limbs, you nut job!

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He seemed remarkably contemptuous of Oozaru in general. I guess the question I'm really asking is why Jaffur still has a tail. (It's probably because he never tried going were-ape.)
Incidentally, I'm going to take Dandeer's comprehensive insanity as evidence that Vegeta Vegeta isn't quite as crazy as she's painted him. Like, he's obviously not a good parent or husband, but I sort of think he'll be easier to rehabilitate than she will. By a lot. Forcing him to develop the selfcontrol required for Oozaru might even solve it on its own.

 

[fictionfan]

Berra's failures and mistakes are a huge part of the setup for this setting, and a lot of people have felt secure in concluding that the reason for this is that he's an utter incompetent devoid of intelligence or initiative. They get quite vocal about it, which tends to filter out into the rest of the discussion. That's more or less how socialization works, and I'm not really surprised by it. I stopped trying to let people know that the issue is somewhat more complex a long time ago, given that it has zero visible impact on the sentiment.

Of course, I am neither afflicted by this nor obliged to act like I buy it, given that I am the person who built Berra, and thus installed all of the hangups which actually led to those failures. And I'm the one who decides what he does from moment to moment.

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I meant for someone that is being mind controlled.

 

[Lailoken]

I'm going to point this out. Please don't turn it into an excuse to order Dandelor to go run laps for no reason or something.

Now that they can't help Dandeer, there may not be much reason for the seer not to start helping one of the royals.

 

[Gore17]

I meant for someone that is being mind controlled.

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I'm not sure why anyone thought that.

 

[ilbgar123]

If he's incapacitated, why would we stop? (I mean, besides not wanting to hurt him.)

He seemed remarkably contemptuous of Oozaru in general. I guess the question I'm really asking is why Jaffur still has a tail. (It's probably because he never tried going were-ape.)
Incidentally, I'm going to take Dandeer's comprehensive insanity as evidence that Vegeta Vegeta isn't quite as crazy as she's painted him. Like, he's obviously not a good parent or husband, but I sort of think he'll be easier to rehabilitate than she will. By a lot. Forcing him to develop the selfcontrol required for Oozaru might even solve it on its own.

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For much the same reason Jaffur hesitated to kill his mother. While ripping off a limb is less extreme than trying to kill him, it's still traumatic and we have a much better relationship with him than Jaffur and Dandeer, which is likely to work against us if we don't go in specifically intending to disable him, even if in an extreme fashion.

 

[HoratioVonBecker]

For much the same reason Jaffur hesitated to kill his mother. While ripping off a limb is less extreme than trying to kill him, it's still traumatic and we have a much better relationship with him than Jaffur and Dandeer, which is likely to work against us if we don't go in specifically intending to disable him, even if in an extreme fashion.

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I think that if we're willing to go for the tail-grab, we're probably just as willing to keep holding it as to rip it off. (Which is to say, not very comfortable with either one.) Upside: It's less icky. Downside: It's extra concentration.

[] Destroy our Power Ball. (Advantage: Probably very cheap, and will force Dad to detransform. Semi-free turn!)
[] TK-Grab Dad's Tail. (More permanent solution - if it works.)

 

[Lailoken]

I think that if we're willing to go for the tail-grab, we're probably just as willing to keep holding it as to rip it off. (Which is to say, not very comfortable with either one.) Upside: It's less icky. Downside: It's extra concentration.

[] Destroy our Power Ball. (Advantage: Probably very cheap, and will force Dad to detransform. Semi-free turn!)
[] TK-Grab Dad's Tail. (More permanent solution - if it works.)

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Monkeyball is already destroyed. Trained apes can maintain the transformation indefinitely without it.

 

[Bommelom]

I still think going for Vegeta is the the best option. Raising our hands to use Instant Transmission is going to give Berra a hint to what we will do, but he won't actually know which one we're going for. However, since his orders are to protect Dandeer and we just tried to take her out he is more likely to try to protect her than Vegeta.

Grabbing Dad's tail on the other hand, requires us to concentrate on that which would allow Vegeta to beat the shit out of us. It would be useful if we had numerical advantage (in terms of fighters who actually matter), but, well, we don't.

 

[Versharl]

Non-obvious opinion: Pacifism is a straight buff.

Not on it's own, but compare this to any of the other saiyan traits we could have picked up. Imagine if, instead of dealing with a protector trait, we had to deal with Goku's Battle Lust, or kid Trunk's immaturity (for his age, considering we're still kids but compare to same age kid trunks), or Vegeta's supreme arrogance / complexes, or Gotenks' arrogance / refusal to be serious, or Mirai Trunk's... well, maybe not M. Trunks as much, his might be better for our purposes, but even he had his moments in cell arc. If you think our options are constricted because we'd rather imprison and seal then kill (when we have sorcerers actually capable of doing that, mind), imagine if we had to let our enemies go and train to beat us, or if we just let them power up, or if we spent all our fights jobbing.

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Ah yes, the fallacy of relative privation. I'm not allowed to complain about a character trait I don't like because there are worse traits. Got it.

 

[ilbgar123]

Well, if you have no choices without downsides, you're going to choose the one with the most benefit relative to it's cost, right?

 

[Simon_Jester]

Yeah. Speaking of which, I found Vegeta Vegeta going berserk to be both hilarious and strange - if he never learned to control Oozaru, why does he still have a tail?

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Because Garenhulder Exiles don't amputate their tails. Lord Vegeta just went through his life carefully avoiding looking at the full moon, I guess.

Berra's failures and mistakes are a huge part of the setup for this setting, and a lot of people have felt secure in concluding that the reason for this is that he's an utter incompetent devoid of intelligence or initiative. They get quite vocal about it, which tends to filter out into the rest of the discussion. That's more or less how socialization works, and I'm not really surprised by it. I stopped trying to let people know that the issue is somewhat more complex a long time ago, given that it has zero visible impact on the sentiment.

Of course, I am neither afflicted by this nor obliged to act like I buy it, given that I am the person who built Berra, and thus installed all of the hangups which actually led to those failures. And I'm the one who decides what he does from moment to moment.

Click to shrink...

My take is that Berra's very intelligent about adopting tactics that fulfill his goals, so I am entirely unsurprised by him being cunning on the tactical front. But he's very vulnerable to being tricked or drawn into a bad position strategically because of his deep-seated desire to be the good guy, to confront bad guys, and to undo his past mistakes. Dandeer very convincingly played the victim, and that proved a very effective way to manipulate Berra.

VEGETA: (With a disturbed look on his face): ...because it's one of my limbs, you nut job!

(Poptart points to the third-leftmost tag.)

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I mean, the old school saiyans would talk about amputating their tails if said tails became too much of a weakness in battle, so it wouldn't be entirely surprising. But that's was in the context of that era's power levels, where a saiyan isn't so overpoweringly strong that he can just roflstomp all probable opposition. And that was in the old saiyan culture which is way way different from even the truly ghastly mentality of someone like Lord Vegeta.

Nah, Gore's pretty right, here. No comment on the current mess -- that's the result of a confluence of many factors only partially under your control, and anybody claiming that a single change in voting habits would have prevented this, you may ignore -- but in terms of a general trend? Yeah, the base tends to ignore or disdain a foundational trait, and that hamstrings you ("Cognitive Dissonance.").

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Not gonna lie, it's a bit tricky to make effective use of pacifist traits when we get dropped in the middle of a battle due to the NPCs Leeeroy Jeeenkins-ing Dandeer and then standing around monologuing while she slaps down mind control spells on them or triggers pre-existing mind control.

This fight might still be going this poorly if we'd gotten a "so wait, how do we approach this" post where Kakara and the other royals huddle and plan their moves in the middle of the post that became Turnabout. Then again, it would have given us a better chance to leverage our real skills to best advantage.

You do not know if he's trained. Ki users can sense and react to TK, although it's a short window. The issue is that it's easier to break TK than a physical grip. Of course, if Berra's tail is still a vulnerability, he won't have it in him to muster even that much...

Losing a limb is a massively traumatic experience, and few people are at their best in the aftermath. Kakara would be (physically) fine, as we've seen, but she's trained.

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Yeah. And if Lord Vegeta didn't train his oozaru form to get control of it, it's far from certain that his tail is trained.

 

[Terrabrand]

Ah yes, the fallacy of relative privation. I'm not allowed to complain about a character trait I don't like because there are worse traits. Got it.

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Newsflash, perfect people are rare. (Just ask the expert, Perfect Cell )

 

[Simon_Jester]

Hm.

I feel partly responsible for this development because "Attack Under Jamming" was my plan.

I'd like everyone to take a key take-away lesson:

Poptart is NOT joking about the risk of getting distracted by trying too many things at once in a fight, and they crack down on that HARD.

Poptart, and I'm not saying this was a wrong choice, basically adjudicated that our "IT to zap Dandeer" gambit failed because we waited, to get in contact with the slowpoke normal saiyans. That gave Berra time to finish transforming and turn around.

In addition to this, my current perception is that course of action that involves us communicating with external allies or coordinating with them, due to the speed disadvantage, is likely to get us tripped up this way. By the time we finish explaining what we want, Berra gets another big nasty shot in.

...

Also, arguably the hesitation here wasn't just Kakara's fault, it was the sheer mismatch between both positions.

Like, if Jaffur didn't default to lethal force, he wouldn't have felt that sudden surge of conflict about attacking his own mother so strongly, because he wouldn't be killing her, which wouldn't have triggered our innate resistance to killing in the first place AND wouldn't have triggered his own innate hesitations as hard.

Newsflash, perfect people are rare. (Just ask the expert, Perfect Cell )

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Nonsense. Either you're perfect, or you're not Vegeta.