- Location
- Canada
My bad that was a separate group.
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
Putting down Temples at key transport nexus relative to Sacred Forest helps a lot if we had the roads to bridge them.
Tar, pitch, and other resins are the real benefits.Or, since we don't actually use charcoal for water purification or gundpowder... we don't actually need pines?
10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
- Location
- Present
The big thing we need to do to get the industrial age is to get Division of Labor and standardized products. Once you get that, you can start justifying expensive fixed infastructure for the purposes of mass production. In order to do that, we need to get a mass produced, standardized item that requires many people with distinct tasks to produce.
Ships would be a good example. Venetia had a massive industrial operation with it's Arsenal as early as 1300.
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Right having caught up changing my vote.
[X] [Alchemy] Full support (Main Study Alchemy, Stallions very pleased)
[X] [WC] Send some artisans to help develop it (-2 Art, -1 Centralization, +3 Wealth next turn)
[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
This would be the fourth time we'd have improved our festivals. Hopefully finishing this chain and giving us something nice from it. Or just a better chain. I'm quite happy with new trails. I just feel this is one of the necessary administrative tasks that need to be done, that get ignored because you old spirits keep chasing the shiny shiny.
[X] [Alchemy] Full support (Main Study Alchemy, Stallions very pleased)
[X] [WC] Send some artisans to help develop it (-2 Art, -1 Centralization, +3 Wealth next turn)
[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
This would be the fourth time we'd have improved our festivals. Hopefully finishing this chain and giving us something nice from it. Or just a better chain. I'm quite happy with new trails. I just feel this is one of the necessary administrative tasks that need to be done, that get ignored because you old spirits keep chasing the shiny shiny.
[X] [Alchemy] Full support (Main Study Alchemy, Stallions very pleased)
[X] [WC] Send many experts to work at the problem (-3 Art, -2 Centralization, +2 Wealth, +2 Wealth next turn)
[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
@Drahcir raises a good point; if we max out the festivals here and get something interesting that could be really useful.
Then again, it will probably just be another megaproject or something.
[X] [WC] Send many experts to work at the problem (-3 Art, -2 Centralization, +2 Wealth, +2 Wealth next turn)
[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
@Drahcir raises a good point; if we max out the festivals here and get something interesting that could be really useful.
Then again, it will probably just be another megaproject or something.
You mean Venice.
So, basically, we'll want to add the Arsenal annex and start on that Grand Dockyard project. Will probably required a couple of expansion of forest, though.
- Location
- Orlando, Florida
I think industrialization will only occur if we find a large coal deposit and suffer from a shortage of labor. In addition, we need to discover advanced scientific and mathematical principles such as calculus, thermodynamics, Newtonian physics, etc. We'll also need some advanced metal working techniques. There's a reason why the Greeks did not industrialize.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Ehhh, coal will probably be necessary, our charcoal reserves are incredibly useful as a replacement fuel up to a certain cutoff point.
There are plans floating around to get to the pre-industrial era and sidehop coal by doing hydropower and other options for the thermal and mechanical energy requirements to industrialize.
The shortage of labor thing is a given though and a bit trickier. We are sorta setup to not run out of labor.
But this is all rather far in the future.
Incidentally some of the derivative materials are the earliest plastics.
We may not run out of labor but the fact is that we have the most expensive labor force in the world since we don't use slaves.
Reminder that there is a very simple reason why the Greeks had no reason to industrialize.
Slaves were cheap unskilled labor. Why spend all that expensive, skilled labor(reminder they had Arete, aka Best of the Best, so everything had a Wealth cost) doing something you could throw a slave at for no more expense than their food? Consider as well that they were using bronze as their metal of choice, which was relatively labor unintensive to make, the difficulty was in extraction...throw more slaves at it. We're using iron, which requires MASSIVE amounts of elite skilled labor to refine and forge.
That's a big reason we hit watermills so quickly. It's actually cheaper for our people to spend a lot of skilled labor designing and constructing a rotary gear mechanism compared to doing all that work by hand, because everyone has to be compensated fairly.
We have a vast demand for labor near constantly, our forestry eats up a huge amount of semiskilled labor, the clerks drain another pool of full skilled labor, all that to keep the administration going.
THAT is why we'd industrialize relatively quickly. Our labor is expensive, so labor saving efficiencies are very highly valued.
We'd probably switch heavily to watermills anywhere we can get running water, and water driven water pumps(waterwheel turned archimedean screw is a good way to fill cisterns for massive housing complexes, like the palace), etc.
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BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Mostly, I think, because the steam engine is one of the first effective engines. It's kinda funny actually how humans are still reliant on Heat Engines based on the steam engine.
Ya. But it's a consistent force and if gutza is talking about a sudden shortfall in labor, we aren't set up to be vulnerable to that with our consistent force.
Really though my opinion is that we are well on the way with our recent inventions of the water wheel.
And what veekie said. Kinda forgot about that big picture.
I'm reminded that the trait fusion I really want to see, though it isn't possible yet, is Best of the Best + Love of Wisdom.
Call it Bleeding Edge Technology, and have it add a mysticism cost to a whole bunch of actions in return for extra study actions in addition to the wealth cost for art we've already got.
Call it Bleeding Edge Technology, and have it add a mysticism cost to a whole bunch of actions in return for extra study actions in addition to the wealth cost for art we've already got.
pblur
Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn
- Location
- Lawrence's Wagon
Some nice infographs I ran across today from real life.
First, a provocative (rather than strictly informative) one:
World GDP over the last two millenia. If anyone doubted that industrialization was a BIG DEAL, this is the graph for you.
Zooming in to a more useful scale:
The US is good at producing wealth. Who knew?
Also, Asia is only beginning it's rise at this point. China and India have a LOT of growth potential.
Finally, turns out adopting Coal is really good for forests (because, you know, people aren't chopping them down quite so much.)
First, a provocative (rather than strictly informative) one:
World GDP over the last two millenia. If anyone doubted that industrialization was a BIG DEAL, this is the graph for you.
Zooming in to a more useful scale:
The US is good at producing wealth. Who knew?
Also, Asia is only beginning it's rise at this point. China and India have a LOT of growth potential.
Finally, turns out adopting Coal is really good for forests (because, you know, people aren't chopping them down quite so much.)
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Holy moly. That'd turn us into something like the civs with Creative in Master of Orion 2.
I.e broken as fuck.
^^
Also a giant glass jaw because the moment the library/intellectual infrastructure shuts down the whole civilization collapses like if the fearmongered Y2K had happened.
Also a giant glass jaw because the moment the library/intellectual infrastructure shuts down the whole civilization collapses like if the fearmongered Y2K had happened.
Silly people, should grow it everywhere.
maximillian
Civilised Sheep
- Location
- Ranch
pblur
Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn
- Location
- Lawrence's Wagon
That's completely not true at this point. It costs us more labor to produce the plant than we get out of it in free labor. That's what bad stat efficiency on production stuff means. It's an inefficient use of labor right now. (Compare mills to iron mines, which are extremely stat-positive now.)
Of course, that's before we build a dam, and on the first generation of mill technology. Almost all mills in real life were combined with a dam (or other similar structure, like a weir) to regulate the flow. Eventually, this WILL be the labor-positive thing you made it out to be. Just not yet.
Quest
The Great One
- Location
- Everywhere
Actually, the people cut down trees regularly. IIRC
Abby Normal
High Clerk of the Ymaryn
- Pronouns
- He/Him
...So we should influence subordinate on them sooner rather than later, and maybe be more cautious about always giving them authority to build mines? Like we're currently doing?
Ooh, sweet
Hmm, while lasers are not feasible, on the general subject of optics, maybe Place to teh Stars (or wonder thereof) with sapphire lenses for observing the stars more closely??? Though i'm still not sure how wonder-blocking would work for a lot of wonders...like yeah, the Mountain/Pyramids are for prestige and "wonder", and the Olympics would make the Games rather less important, but "we should figure out how the stars change" doesn't seem like it could be locked out because someone else did it better... same with our wonder, honestly; "holy shit they have a managed climate and aren't hurt by this stuff" shouldn't make people go "guess we can't do anything about managing our forests to protect them from blight, its just half assing what the Ymaryn did!", it should make them go "...dammit how do we do that??"
...So what you're saying is we need a Trelli trade post and more trade missions and maybe a few war missions if they don't pony up their cats?
We're in need of at least a few influence subordinate uses, which is a pretty good way to drain diplo; personally i want at least 3 main actions: 1 or two collectively to the northern subordinates, 1 to the lowlands vassal, and 1 to hatvalley, which is explicitly the most able to succeed and the third most culturally distinct after the vassal and heaven hawks.Um...we now have a +2 drip per turn, plus bandwagon support for ROADS
We can pretty much accumulate Diplomacy faster than we can deal with all the excess Martial from integrations. Not to mention the pre-Palace admin woes.
And Diplomacy overflow is Art, which will help build the Palace faster.
Integrating them givesthem access to stuff like iron, so when we integrate them i'd like to have done an influence subordinate first, or maybe at the same time.
Yeah, this is why Influence Subordinate is an amazing thing to gain, and honestly probably the best thing to come out of getting the lowlands vassal.
Well for one, we've had warnings that having so many mines under semi-private control increases succession risk (think back to Rulwyna II's thoughts on the Ymaryn breaking up, for example), and in general that sounds a lot like a button. We should know by now that blindly pushing buttons is bad, given how willing our neighbors areto give us examples
That was before the terminology was finalized; check around those updates for an analysis from me or veekie, i'm almost certain that was basically 1 Expand Econ action a turn in effect.
The "maximum stability" for all those actions is when we can *take* the action, not how high it can go. So the limit on how high stab can be after RO is "equal to the legitimacy after the penalty"...which is legit -1, but without that penalty it would be the same figure.
AN has also said that making them a periphery means they get access to stuff like iron, so i want us to influence them at least once to make sure they're loyal before that, preferably at the same time. And as others said, Terrify is narratively pretty terrible, honestly, especially since the way we got it explicitly stressed our values by WoG...
"Closed loop" just sounds like "a button to mash", and that means we should be wary of it, same as teh lowlanders should have been wary of Pioneering Spirit, self-raiding, and Restoration of order
If i remember right, after the major refugee wave at the start of teh climate issues, @Academia Nut said that the ??? just hadn't kicked in yet but we'd be seeing it soon...i dont know if i/we just missed that happening in a later update, or if AN forgot in the midst of the dozens of other things he has to keep track of for updates, but i dont remember seeing it for sure...
I think the main is just there to show the stats and effects if we had a target for it, same as how all the periphery state actions are still listed even with no targets.
Well, choosing to give full authority to the mine isn't 100% right, since decreasing centralization is dangerous right now and we've been told in the past that semi-private mines can be a focal point for succession, and that Hatvalley is already rich enough to be thinking about succeeding if they stop needing our army, or we stop helping them, so...
Most of those are about hte periphery and subordinates though, i think, which means we need influence subordinates, not festivals that i dont think apply to peripheries.
I mean...when we hit four normal festivals, the action got *worse* so i wouldn't count on it... Imagine if festivals doubled in price again?[X] [Alchemy] Full support (Main Study Alchemy, Stallions very pleased)
[X] [WC] Send many experts to work at the problem (-3 Art, -2 Centralization, +2 Wealth, +2 Wealth next turn)
[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
@Drahcir raises a good point; if we max out the festivals here and get something interesting that could be really useful.
Then again, it will probably just be another megaproject or something.