Well we still need to make a large number of scientific and technological advancements that the Greeks didn't have before we can even think about industrializing. I think 2000 years may actually be a bit too optimistic to be realistic.
Definitely.


^^
Also a giant glass jaw because the moment the library/intellectual infrastructure shuts down the whole civilization collapses like if the fearmongered Y2K had happened.

Silly people, should grow it everywhere.
If I am not mistaken something like this was one of the main downfalls and millstones of civs that died in the Bronze Age Collapse. The weight of their scribe and literate classes and admin was enough to topple them if the wrong shit broke at the wrong time.
 
Last edited:
Actually, the people cut down trees regularly. IIRC
You mean the Ymaryn? Yeah.

Basically, we're a LONG ways from the fuel demands of the pre-industrial revolution age. Right now, sustainable charcoal production is pretty easy for us. It won't always be. And then we'll have really hard choices.
 
That's completely not true at this point. It costs us more labor to produce the plant than we get out of it in free labor. That's what bad stat efficiency on production stuff means. It's an inefficient use of labor right now. (Compare mills to iron mines, which are extremely stat-positive now.)

Of course, that's before we build a dam, and on the first generation of mill technology. Almost all mills in real life were combined with a dam (or other similar structure, like a weir) to regulate the flow. Eventually, this WILL be the labor-positive thing you made it out to be. Just not yet.
Econ represents more labor per point than wealth, though, i'm pretty sure; its more expensive to build a watermill and have a dozen people work it than it is to assign a few hundred to more primitive mills, but it does save manhours/labor, because it only requires, say, 2 dozen people to produce that wealth, because wealth producers like miners are relatively elite trained professionals. So we trade ~3 dozen workers between the watermill and in mines/snail cultivation/etc for a few hundred in primitive mills

Actually, the people cut down trees regularly. IIRC
A lot of our firewood and maybe charcoal (in retrospect, don't know enough about charcoal to say if we can make it with just branches or if we need larger individual pieces of wood...) comes from dropped branches, actually, to the point that per WoG our trees are (slowly but surely) evolving towards dropping a shitload of branches, because it's rewarded by our planting and harvesting style.
 
Also a giant glass jaw because the moment the library/intellectual infrastructure shuts down the whole civilization collapses
"Bleeding edge technology is a category of technologies so new that they could have a high risk of being unreliable and lead adopters to incur greater expense in order to make use of them."

Yeah, that name wasn't random. "Be careful not to cut yourself."
Actually, the people cut down trees regularly.
And The People replant them afterwords. Most civs didn't do that.

But yeah, we need to look into dams for hydropower and will probably have to deal with coal as well, even with our charcoal supply. Industrialization hurts, and we don't have any good answer to that until we're a fair bit through it.
it should make them go "...dammit how do we do that??"
It probably does, but when faced with the cost of 10 [main]s, 20 economy, 20 mysticism, and 10 art, they go "fuck that, just go ask the Ymaryn for help."
 
Incidentally some of the derivative materials are the earliest plastics.
The other nice thing is that we have this giant area that we're not doing anything with ATM. Likely it's perfect for pine plantations. Better, if we can keep the cultivation going, pine remains the single most valuable industrial wood today.
 
It probably does, but when faced with the cost of 10 [main]s, 20 economy, 20 mysticism, and 10 art, they go "fuck that, just go ask the Ymaryn for help."
I meant in terms of the original sacred forest megaproject (which...i think only took us 3 turns with way less resources and actions, and a much smaller scale and tech level?) since the comparison was to the Pyramids wonder obsoleting the Mountain megaproject. I was also applying the same principle to fears that someone (The Khemetri) could Wonder us out of the Palace, or the Place to the Stars, or the dam, or other megaprojects that are not really based on wonder and awe. The dam probably doesn't have a wonder for it, but i could see there being a wonder upgrade for hte palace; i just couldn't see it preventing other civs from building the basic palace, just like i don't think Sacred Forest Renewal would prevent other civs from taking the original Sacred Forest if they had the traits and circumstances to do so in the first place
 
Last edited:
Actually, watermills are almost free if you can overflow. Basically, it translates wealth to econ which could overflow right back to econ, with only -1 art for cost.
 
A question, what do we actually know about the swamp people? As far as I can tell our armies just smacked into each other and started fighting. Do we know what their stated war aims are? What do we know about their culture?
 
Can you plot that on a log scale? As it is, it isn't clear that there is any sort of inflection point at the end; it just looks like the exponential took a while to get to the part of the curve where we could see it.
I don't have the data unfortunately. I was wanting that too. :D
 
A question, what do we actually know about the swamp people? As far as I can tell our armies just smacked into each other and started fighting. Do we know what their stated war aims are? What do we know about their culture?
Manifest Destiny variant near as we can tell, for war aims. Basically they have been doing incredibly well in this climate, their swamp expanding, so they think their gods are blessing them. Near as we can figure this has lead them into grabbing up as much land as they can so that if the climate suddenly shifts back they won't be shafted, so variant Manifest Destiny. Or at least that's the closest term we could find.

It does not help that they seem to have inherited some things from the Xoh and are in general a martial culture from their time as a vassal to them.

E: As to culture we got a sample way back when we first heard of them, which I don't remember when that was sadly.
 
Last edited:
They were the Xoh's ninja clans, and they had a decent deal with Xoh so they probably had a decent amount of cultural interchange.
 
A question, what do we actually know about the swamp people? As far as I can tell our armies just smacked into each other and started fighting. Do we know what their stated war aims are? What do we know about their culture?

They are a normal bronze age culture which means that if they reasonably believe they can take something (be it land wealth or slaves) from another civ then they will try to do just that. They do not need a better reason to fight. The Ymaryn are the odd ones for doing so.
 
Last edited:
Econ represents more labor per point than wealth, though, i'm pretty sure; its more expensive to build a watermill and have a dozen people work it than it is to assign a few hundred to more primitive mills, but it does save manhours/labor, because it only requires, say, 2 dozen people to produce that wealth, because wealth producers like miners are relatively elite trained professionals. So we trade ~3 dozen workers between the watermill and in mines/snail cultivation/etc for a few hundred in primitive mills

Well, let's break it down. I'll work with Mains, because Secondaries often have costs/benefits which are rounded off and ignored.
[Main] Build Mills -3 Wealth, -1 Art, +3 Econ
We spend 3 Wealth of fancy stuff (probably metal bearings, carefully shaped wood, etc.) and 1 Art of artisan labor to save 3 Econ worth of labor.


Suppose you generate that wealth and art via a Vineyard. If you spend a 'main action' of the government's directable labor force on preparing a Vineyard, and 1 Econ of labor to run it, you can get 1 Wealth of wine that you can trade for the fancy stuff you need, and attract 1 Art of artisan labor. If you double that, you'll get close to the cost of building a mill (+1 Art, -1 Wealth, but you can convert between those without too much effort.)

So to build a mill, you have to spend roughly three 'main actions' of government work force to do the logistics, etc. on building two vineyards and a mill, and devote two Econ of labor to running the vineyards, for a net profit of freeing up one Econ of labor.

I think three main actions of government work force is a lot more labor than 1 Econ (which can be created by half a secondary action). It's not possible to do an exact equivalency of course, so this is an estimate, not certainty.
 
Last edited:
The big thing we need to do to get the industrial age is to get Division of Labor and standardized products. Once you get that, you can start justifying expensive fixed infastructure for the purposes of mass production. In order to do that, we need to get a mass produced, standardized item that requires many people with distinct tasks to produce.

Ships would be a good example. Venetia had a massive industrial operation with it's Arsenal as early as 1300.

I think industrialization will only occur if we find a large coal deposit and suffer from a shortage of labor. In addition, we need to discover advanced scientific and mathematical principles such as calculus, thermodynamics, Newtonian physics, etc. We'll also need some advanced metal working techniques. There's a reason why the Greeks did not industrialize.


We are unlikely to have a labor shortage, but we have very high labor costs, which amounts to the same. The closest thing we have to cheap, unskilled labor are the half exiles, and even those get a minimum standard of living.

So there is definitely room for improvement via mechanization. The mills are just the first step but odds are we get more as human strength proves more and more insufficient to demand.

Division of labor is a bit trickier, but while ships are indeed a good project, chariots are fantastic as well. As are the civilian variants, the wagon and carriage.

Those are all small (compared to ships), expensive and in high demand across the known world.

Even if chariots become obsolete, the civilian market will keep using them for millenia. And division of labor works very well with them.

Added bonus is that Ymaryn Chariots are inherently funny to me. (Ymaryn= People= Volk; Chariots = Wagons = Wagen). Just don't manipulate data on how much hay the horses will need!


Ehhh, coal will probably be necessary, our charcoal reserves are incredibly useful as a replacement fuel up to a certain cutoff point.

There are plans floating around to get to the pre-industrial era and sidehop coal by doing hydropower and other options for the thermal and mechanical energy requirements to industrialize.

The shortage of labor thing is a given though and a bit trickier. We are sorta setup to not run out of labor.

But this is all rather far in the future.

Ancient Greece had a cultural problem with industrialization or using their science practically. The ideal life for a nobleman (whom also are the philosophers) is to life a life of leisure financed by their families properties and not something as vulgar as labor or trade.

Making labor saving devices would only cause the slaves and workers to get lazy, so why bother?

The Ymaryns outlook is the complete opposite.
 
[X] [Alchemy] Full support (Main Study Alchemy, Stallions very pleased)
[X] [WC] Send many experts to work at the problem (-3 Art, -2 Centralization, +2 Wealth, +2 Wealth next turn)
[X] [React] Main New Trails
 
Back
Top