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Paths of Civilization

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Umi-san said:
personally I still want the Great Hall X-pack + Garden, but we can always do those as a pair later. Similarly, we can do the Shrine + Arsenal together.
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Yeah, I really want Great Hall+Garden, I want Storehouse, I want everything.

However, I really want to get this done fast, and shaving a whole turn/2 mains+4 stats is worth quite a bit. We've got 5-7 more on the Palace even with the minimal design, 4-6 on the Census, and then likely another ~4-8 on The Law (Iron Age). That's a lot of actions we need to spend, and every little bit counts.

If you strongly support adding those in feel free to remove the delegation and vote as you believe is correct.
 
The Sandman said:
Also, putting the Palace in Redshore before it becomes a True City lets us integrate it more thoroughly into the resulting urban area, with the city actually designed to support the needs of governance first.

...unless we intend to build the Palace in Lower Valleyhome, I suppose.
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Considering that we have organized cities, I do not consider this a particularly notable point. Shift people around, break down their houses, build up the palace.

@notgreat I'm fine w/ your vote + I like the detachment that not being an active voter gives me.
 
Susano said:
That's a feature, not a bug. We want a balance of power between various faction at courts, not a king who is left alone to rule as he/she pleases.
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FYI the political factions would move with it.
VoidZero said:
Are you really sure about making a densely populated industry area with entrenched power families into a free city?

The first free city no less? Not a great example of responsible self governing, o think.
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Uh, yes, they are experienced administrators. Transitioning it to a free city would largely not change anything for them.
tryrar said:
A very large library, because we don't get any of the other benefits in the meanwhile. Remember, this is thinking in timespan of hundreds of years, because if you think if this goes in valleyhome it's going to get moved in the next couple centuries, you're smoking something really good and I want some.
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Reminder that Census will probably eat up a whole library on it's own
Umi-san said:
it has its own holy site, tho not in the city proper I guess
it has a major dock iirc, one was built in it
it's the major shipping center of our nation, though Greenriver is highly competitive
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Valleyhome's holy site is in Rainbow Trail, which is IIRC several days travel.
pbluekan said:
Where do you get those travel times to Redshore? And either way, I really doubt that some extra time on the road, likely stopping at all three major holy sites on the way, is such a hardship that it will drastically change our relations with our provinces. That week simply doesn't really matter on timescales of 15-20 years.
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See above post on logistics. I literally do this for a living, and lets just say that without the information network provided by modern technology(imagine for a moment, your phone call or email requires a runner EACH way and whenever you ask for confirmation you add another week or more to the time taken)...it'd be hell on earth.

As for the travel distances. Its been in an old update, but easiest way is for @Academia Nut to lay out:
-Admin Chief: What's the travel time from the Palace sites to the province capitals? Is it making the administration difficult?
 
veekie said:
We elected the nomad king because the Valleyhome Oligarches were afraid of one of their own would take over the place. That's one example.

They have a skewed view of things because Valleyhome isn't really well connected. They don't see the overall picture, they see the politics of a large but geographically isolated city and assume that this is the same everywhere.

Administrative centers have changed often and at little fuss historically.

The distance is a multiplier on all the issues of administration. Speaking as someone working in logistics, it's VERY easy to underestimate the sheer costs of adding even a week's travel to turnaround times of information. That's two weeks to make decisions like "How much should the grain quota this season be?"

Think about that. If the weather is shitty in Northshore, the Palace will learn about it 2 weeks after the weather turns. Then you add another week for the messages to be filtered by priority, allowing for clerk and middle managerb iases. They will then decide based on that information, and send a messenger from Valleyhome to Northshore to lower quotas for this harvest. The messenger arrives 5 weeks after the weather goes sour...oh look it's already nearly the harvest. Now the Northshore chiefs will be bitching about having to adjust tool and labor allocations on so little time.

THEN you have the messengers going to the Stallion Tribes, Stonepen, Redshore and Black River to increase quotas, and ship extra grain over to Northshore to help them tide over the bad harvest, which all have to be sorted out before anyone is short enough to starve.

THEN you factor in the transit points, where ocean ships switch to longships, and then switch to wagons. Each switch requires clerks at the transit points to record and organize what is being moved, to make sure nothing had gone missing, and to double check that nobody had taken it on their own initiative to swap out the messages or forge the documents. The increase in administrative difficulty by distance and modes of transport is exponential, no linear.

That is part of the admin issues at present. Shaving off a week of travel is shaving off at least 3 weeks of response time and overhead.
The Palace breathes information. It's the lifeblood of the administration.
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Look, the real sticking point to Redshore is it's not a True City, and making it the capital will force it to become one quickly, whether we want it to or not. So unless you want to devote the effort to get a vote going to put up an aqueduct in the next 1-2 turns while ignoring all the other problems, vote for somewhere else please. All the other benefits Redshore has are nebulous at best-and yes that also means travel time as despite what you say, in the context of 20-30 turns 1 week is fucking insignificant in the scheme of things.
 
veekie said:
FYI the political factions would move with it.

Uh, yes, they are experienced administrators. Transitioning it to a free city would largely not change anything for them.

Reminder that Census will probably eat up a whole library on it's own

Valleyhome's holy site is in Rainbow Trail, which is IIRC several days travel.

See above post on logistics. I literally do this for a living, and lets just say that without the information network provided by modern technology(imagine for a moment, your phone call or email requires a runner EACH way and whenever you ask for confirmation you add another week or more to the time taken)...it'd be hell on earth.

As for the travel distances. Its been in an old update, but easiest way is for @Academia Nut to lay out:
-Admin Chief: What's the travel time from the Palace sites to the province capitals? Is it making the administration difficult?
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Well, this sin't real life, and I'm not sure AN has it modelled that accurately. So you're experience isn't as big of a thing as you think it is.
 
veekie said:
We elected the nomad king because the Valleyhome Oligarches were afraid of one of their own would take over the place. That's one example.

They have a skewed view of things because Valleyhome isn't really well connected. They don't see the overall picture, they see the politics of a large but geographically isolated city and assume that this is the same everywhere.

Administrative centers have changed often and at little fuss historically.

The distance is a multiplier on all the issues of administration. Speaking as someone working in logistics, it's VERY easy to underestimate the sheer costs of adding even a week's travel to turnaround times of information. That's two weeks to make decisions like "How much should the grain quota this season be?"

Think about that. If the weather is shitty in Northshore, the Palace will learn about it 2 weeks after the weather turns. Then you add another week for the messages to be filtered by priority, allowing for clerk and middle managerb iases. They will then decide based on that information, and send a messenger from Valleyhome to Northshore to lower quotas for this harvest. The messenger arrives 5 weeks after the weather goes sour...oh look it's already nearly the harvest. Now the Northshore chiefs will be bitching about having to adjust tool and labor allocations on so little time.

THEN you have the messengers going to the Stallion Tribes, Stonepen, Redshore and Black River to increase quotas, and ship extra grain over to Northshore to help them tide over the bad harvest, which all have to be sorted out before anyone is short enough to starve.

THEN you factor in the transit points, where ocean ships switch to longships, and then switch to wagons. Each switch requires clerks at the transit points to record and organize what is being moved, to make sure nothing had gone missing, and to double check that nobody had taken it on their own initiative to swap out the messages or forge the documents. The increase in administrative difficulty by distance and modes of transport is exponential, no linear.

That is part of the admin issues at present. Shaving off a week of travel is shaving off at least 3 weeks of response time and overhead.
The Palace breathes information. It's the lifeblood of the administration.
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This would all be well and good if AN hadn't said that it was a day by horse courier. A week is the time that someone with a cart would walk it.

I get your point, I really do, and it's by far the only real good reason I've seen for the switch to Redshore. But AN stated that a Redshore switch would only advantage us in the extreme long term. And that was a maybe. The delay in messages is obviously not stufficient that it would provide an immediate benefit.

Hell, Rome isn't even a port city.
 
tryrar said:
Look, the real sticking point to Redshore is it's not a True City, and making it the capital will force it to become one quickly, whether we want it to or not. So unless you want to devote the effort to get a vote going to put up an aqueduct in the next 1-2 turns while ignoring all the other problems, vote for somewhere else please. All the other benefits Redshore has are nebulous at best-and yes that also means travel time as despite what you say, in the context of 20-30 turns 1 week is fucking insignificant in the scheme of things.
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Reminder that we can build an Aqueduct there in 2 actions, and that we have a bit more time than that to build it(you need the aqueduct in about 2-3 turns after completion of the palace as people move in, and it's mostly to offset the disease risks), and Aqueducts do not compete for resources with the Census.
 
PrimalShadow said:
We are going to burn through our current art with the palace. If we lose the Mysticism->Art drip for the census, we will be sitting at functionally zero art, which means we can't use it for Proclaim Glory, nor for any of the other art-consuming actions.

Also. I'm not sure if you remember, but the last time we did The Law, it was -1 Art and Mysticism per action. So we really want to have a reserve of art by the time we start, which means NOT burning Mysticism (and therefore Art) with the census.
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We've got 10 art right now, and will get one more from overflow at the end of this turn, so next turn we'll start with 11. The current vote is, iirc, 4 annexes, or 8-10 total actions, or 6-8 remaining actions. If we continue at our current pace, thats 3-4 turns, spending 2 art and gaining 1 from the temple overflowing mysticism, more if the province take any of the actions BotB applies to again like this turn. That means by the time we finish the palace and (hopefully) start on the census, we'll be at 7-8 art, which isn't bad imo. If we have the refund, we'd be gaining +1 art/turn while doing the census, which should take 2-3 turns, 4 max if we can't even double main it each turn, so we'd have 9-12 art instead of 7-8. Mostly likely the difference would be ~2 or 3 art compared to not having the refund. Mind, its a bit of a null point, since library x2 is winning, and i voted for it in my final vote anyway, mostly due to the administrative issues and the narrative issues with the census that veekie brought up and that i think is more important than the mechanical refund issue. But i still argue that the refund isn't urgent, or even the best reason to vote for the second library.
 
pbluekan said:
This would all be well and good if AN hadn't said that it was a day by horse courier. A week is the time that someone with a cart would walk it.

I get your point, I really do, and it's by far the only real good reason I've seen for the switch to Redshore. But AN stated that a Redshore switch would only advantage us in the extreme long term. And that was a maybe. The delay in messages is obviously not stufficient that it would provide an immediate benefit.

Hell, Rome isn't even a port city.
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The issue is that we're running a Palace Economy, which makes the cart-time the important one...and bolded for something AN had never said.
 
veekie said:
Reminder that we can build an Aqueduct there in 2 actions, and that we have a bit more time than that to build it(you need the aqueduct in about 2-3 turns after completion of the palace as people move in, and it's mostly to offset the disease risks), and Aqueducts do not compete for resources with the Census.
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It's still actions we have to do while other things go on. Really, as we keep telling you it's just not worth the hassle for a fucking 1 week travel time difference.
 
veekie said:
Yes, but compare them with the whole rest of the country being pissed because it's so hard to reach the capital.
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The rest of the country will not be as pissed nor in as good a position to make trouble during a time of administrative instability, mostly because "the rest of the country" can't enact coherent destabilizing plans like Free City Valleyhome could.
 
veekie said:
FYI the political factions would move with it.

Uh, yes, they are experienced administrators. Transitioning it to a free city would largely not change anything for them.

Reminder that Census will probably eat up a whole library on it's own

Valleyhome's holy site is in Rainbow Trail, which is IIRC several days travel.

See above post on logistics. I literally do this for a living, and lets just say that without the information network provided by modern technology(imagine for a moment, your phone call or email requires a runner EACH way and whenever you ask for confirmation you add another week or more to the time taken)...it'd be hell on earth.

As for the travel distances. Its been in an old update, but easiest way is for @Academia Nut to lay out:
-Admin Chief: What's the travel time from the Palace sites to the province capitals? Is it making the administration difficult?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Hmm. @Academia Nut what kind of information tech do we have? What do we have to do to get more?
Adhoc vote count started by Concho117 on Jul 9, 2017 at 9:10 PM, finished with 72091 posts and 96 votes.
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veekie said:
Yes, but compare them with the whole rest of the country being pissed because it's so hard to reach the capital.
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It isn't hard to reach! I get your logistics post, but we stopped hearing any mention of that difficulty being s true issue ages past.

And again, it's a day by horse courier over the best roads in the kingdom.

It is not hard to reach. At all.
 
veekie said:
Reminder that we can build an Aqueduct there in 2 actions, and that we have a bit more time than that to build it(you need the aqueduct in about 2-3 turns after completion of the palace as people move in, and it's mostly to offset the disease risks), and Aqueducts do not compete for resources with the Census.
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It costs 4 actions/2 mains and 8 econ to build.

That's a hefty cost, roughly equivalent to 3 additional annexes.
 
pbluekan said:
This would all be well and good if AN hadn't said that it was a day by horse courier. A week is the time that someone with a cart would walk it.

I get your point, I really do, and it's by far the only real good reason I've seen for the switch to Redshore. But AN stated that a Redshore switch would only advantage us in the extreme long term. And that was a maybe. The delay in messages is obviously not stufficient that it would provide an immediate benefit.

Hell, Rome isn't even a port city.
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Admittedly, it also wasn't separate from its associated port city by a mountain range.

But yeah, long term we're going to need canals and dams to tie the country together. Maybe with admin improvements we can get actions that can only be used within a given province, which we could use for local infrastructure?
 
veekie said:
The issue is that we're running a Palace Economy, which makes the cart-time the important one...and bolded for something AN had never said.
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Umm, yes he said it would probably be an advantage i n the extreme long term, which implies it's not much of an advantage in the shorter term. Yes he didn't specifically state it's worse in the short term(beyond obviously needing an aqueduct), but you get the implication if there's a shorter term benefit, it's not much of one.
 
veekie said:
Valleyhome's holy site is in Rainbow Trail, which is IIRC several days travel.
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your use of "it" combined with the mention of Redshore confused me.

veekie said:
in 2 actions
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in 2 main actions, w/ the cost.

veekie said:
Uh, yes, they are experienced administrators. Transitioning it to a free city would largely not change anything for them.
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Other than remove close oversight + add a cent cap.
 
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@Academia Nut

What are the travel times from the provincial capitals to/from Valleyhome?
Is the delay in messaging between Redshore and Valleyhome a major factor in our administrative woes?
 
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