Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
We've lost Sacred War and Nobility in Humility. Everything else was absorbed into other traits or evolved.
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
DocMatoi
Theoretical Lover of Girls
- Location
- within 2 hours of the White House
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Nobility in humility, back when we went ham on the nomads
iirc, sacred war was only ever a LoO trait
The GM pretty explicitly said it is unlikely for us to lose it. Personally I think Symphony is the most at risk.
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pblur
Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn
- Location
- Lawrence's Wagon
Well, we never really had Sacred War; it was a CA trait (or older equivalent).
And yet stamping them out without a debate is going against the idea of Love of Wisdom.
pblur
Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn
- Location
- Lawrence's Wagon
So far, we've lost traits by acting like we didn't believe them. You're recommending we act like we don't believe this trait in order to protect it.
I don't think it works that way.
- Location
- Sydney
[x] [RA] Stamp down on all of this (-2 Stability, +2 Religious Authority)
[x] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[x] [Low] Crack down on their priests (-1 Stability, potential war with vassal, potential +1 Religious authority)
[x] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[x] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
[x] [High] Extra tribute (+2 Prestige, +2 Wealth, probably completes this turn)
[ ] [High] Demand territory (+3 Prestige, +3 Wealth, +2 Econ, +4 Econ expansion, -1 Centralization, requires further military commitment, likely requires more actions)
[x] [RB] Remain at rest
[x] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
[x] [Refugee] Just those who come of their own initiative (Potential stab loss, +2 Econ)
[x] [City] No
[x] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[x] [Low] Crack down on their priests (-1 Stability, potential war with vassal, potential +1 Religious authority)
[x] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[x] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
[x] [High] Extra tribute (+2 Prestige, +2 Wealth, probably completes this turn)
[ ] [High] Demand territory (+3 Prestige, +3 Wealth, +2 Econ, +4 Econ expansion, -1 Centralization, requires further military commitment, likely requires more actions)
[x] [RB] Remain at rest
[x] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
[x] [Refugee] Just those who come of their own initiative (Potential stab loss, +2 Econ)
[x] [City] No
God no. Do people even math???
- Location
- Canada
Time for strategic voting.
[X] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)
[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
[X] [High] Demand territory (+3 Prestige, +3 Wealth, +2 Econ, +4 Econ expansion, -1 Centralization, requires further military commitment, likely requires more actions)
[X] [RB] Deploy against Highlanders from Hatvalley
[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
[X] [City] No
[X] [Refugee] Just those who come of their own initiative (Potential stab loss, +2 Econ)
[X] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)
[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
[X] [High] Demand territory (+3 Prestige, +3 Wealth, +2 Econ, +4 Econ expansion, -1 Centralization, requires further military commitment, likely requires more actions)
[X] [RB] Deploy against Highlanders from Hatvalley
[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
[X] [City] No
[X] [Refugee] Just those who come of their own initiative (Potential stab loss, +2 Econ)
Hyacinthium
Writing about sad cannibals as we speak.
- Location
- Bedroom
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Certainty and faith can be strong qualities of their own. There is a reason our priests are bending to it. Rather than wanting to do away with it we should aim to unblind it. Of course, that is breaching one of the problems of faith in the religious sense. If it's so easily shaken then it wasn't truly faith now was it? Stubbornness and brick wall like attitudes... I've always considered blind faith to be something quite separate. It often comes off as flimsy justification.
Either way, such determination and resolute manner is admirable even to an agnostic like me. The only bad things about it are what this unshakeable faith is being dedicated to, but even then there are ways to shift and reinterpret the gods and practices of our new populace.
Narratively speaking the proclamation of our people beating climate change is great evidence/points in our favor. I'm not sure the stab loss would... well.
But I'm glad that this event is happening. It seems like it'll evolve our priests, and coinciding with our new law megaproject focus, I forsee lawyers or lawyer like people showing up. ALL HAIL THE GREAT SV LAWYER ROLE PLAY
Either way, such determination and resolute manner is admirable even to an agnostic like me. The only bad things about it are what this unshakeable faith is being dedicated to, but even then there are ways to shift and reinterpret the gods and practices of our new populace.
Narratively speaking the proclamation of our people beating climate change is great evidence/points in our favor. I'm not sure the stab loss would... well.
But I'm glad that this event is happening. It seems like it'll evolve our priests, and coinciding with our new law megaproject focus, I forsee lawyers or lawyer like people showing up. ALL HAIL THE GREAT SV LAWYER ROLE PLAY
- Location
- Simi Valley, CA, United States
[X] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)
[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
[X] [Low] Send over assistance (Transfer 1 Econ + 1 Martial)
[X] [High] Extra tribute (+2 Prestige, +2 Wealth, probably completes this turn)
[X] [RB] Remain at rest
[X] [City] Yes (Transfers 2 Econ + 2 Econ expansion, nulls cost of maintenance for Sacred Forest)
[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
[X] [Refugee] Just those who come of theirown initiative (Potential stab loss, +2 Econ)
[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
[X] [Low] Send over assistance (Transfer 1 Econ + 1 Martial)
[X] [High] Extra tribute (+2 Prestige, +2 Wealth, probably completes this turn)
[X] [RB] Remain at rest
[X] [City] Yes (Transfers 2 Econ + 2 Econ expansion, nulls cost of maintenance for Sacred Forest)
[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
[X] [Refugee] Just those who come of theirown initiative (Potential stab loss, +2 Econ)
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- Location
- United Kingdom
[X] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)
[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
[X] [High] Extra tribute (+2 Prestige, +2 Wealth, probably completes this turn)
[X] [RB] Remain at rest
[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
[X] [City] No
[X] [Refugee] Let everyone know that your environment is stable (-3 Stab, potential further loss, +9-11 Econ, ???)
[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
[X] [High] Extra tribute (+2 Prestige, +2 Wealth, probably completes this turn)
[X] [RB] Remain at rest
[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
[X] [City] No
[X] [Refugee] Let everyone know that your environment is stable (-3 Stab, potential further loss, +9-11 Econ, ???)
maximillian
Civilised Sheep
- Location
- Ranch
Win or lose, it will greatly enhance our notions of theology, and possibly open us to philosophy . So far our religion has been primarily ritualistic, with. Very little and extremely slow growth in philosophy.
Win or lose, it will open the path.
Win or lose, it will open the path.
DocMatoi
Theoretical Lover of Girls
- Location
- within 2 hours of the White House
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Love of Wisdom IS philosophy. That's literally what "Philo Sophy" mean: Love of Wisdom. We already have the stuff.
maximillian
Civilised Sheep
- Location
- Ranch
Faith can move mountains, but that kind of faith can only be begotten by advanced ideology. Pantheism never was such.
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maximillian
Civilised Sheep
- Location
- Ranch
All our love of wisdom trait revolves around is ritual and ritualistic material sciences. Esoteric, impractical and exestential thinking are unknown to us. We have proto primitive scientific theory. Not philosophy or related fields, not even close.
Edit: we have the begging of it, as shown with the ritualistic and theological significance of Alchemy, but only the bare bones of the begening.
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I find it amusing that at this point, we, the government, are paying for the taxes.
Usually, it is the other way around.
Heh, quite. We can trade Tin freely, which gives us a lot of bargaining power over tin dependent polities.
Speaking of gold and silver, now that we've eaten most major sources for them aside from the Metalworkers, when the other states convert to currency they might be a wee bit stuck.
Main reason not to pop Sacred Forest yet is that we want to have three libraries up before we start the Census, and we can't build a library there if it stops being a True City(though AN had mentioned that unless sacked, libraries already built should remain)
That's why I'm chewing on the Highlander lands. We're going to need Stability a sight more than Econ, since we can generate it in the mid turn, worst case, by taking Expand Econ.
Actually, to model religious debate, look to the Pilgrimage quality. AN had already described the values here that determine the 'weight' of our religion and culture:
-Prestige - Success is the ultimate determinant of cultural weight. Being a rich and powerful state is a very strong argument against religious certainty. This is what Rome used, as long as they were successful, any rival faiths simply got absorbed as subcults or fringe beliefs. Nobody wants to rock a winning boat.
-Religious Authority - The ability of a religious authority to overrule secular authority gives a lot of 'empty' weight to an argument. This basically says "The King listens to me, so you should too.". This is what Popes wielded, though it's weaker when put to the test, it determines starting positions.
-Mysticism - The ability of a culture to defend it's point of view. Here we have sheer quantity, it doesn't matter that they are winning some arguments when our priests are in more places. This is what the christian and buddhist missionaries used. It doesn't matter that they do not address the arguments of rival faiths, but they can afford to put far more believers on the ground to spread their beliefs.
Noting that these are not primary source Xohyr priests, but secondary source ones who imitated their overlords to gain favor. Less that they have high Religious Authority and more that they are leaning on the authority of the past.
Finally, the arguments are overblown because:
Traits being pushed:
-Self Sacrifice - This seems like a Honorable Death evolution. Picking it up is not necessarily a bad thing.
-Community - This resonates with Symphony. A fusion may be in the cards here, considering a very mature and constantly invoked trait meeting a newer trait tends to just swallow it whole.
-Working for Greater Good - This is a Greater Good evolution or fork. We specifically rejected the element of sacrificing people.
Overall? Religious debate is the most likely to EVOLVE or FUSE traits, not lose traits. By putting the foreign faiths under scrutiny and examination(Love of Wisdom), we may take the good parts and incorporate it into our own culture(Cosmopolitan Acceptance). Symphony and Love of Wisdom are directly evoked there, so they is unlikely to be lost.
Bolded is not necessarily true. We only got that with Sacred Warding, and we know for a fact that the Xohyr never allowed their vassals to build any significant infrastructure.
Reminder that the human sacrifice was discarded immediately without a second thought in the update itself.
[X] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)
[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
[X] [Low] Send over assistance (Transfer 1 Econ + 1 Martial)
[X] [High] Extra tribute (+2 Prestige, +2 Wealth, probably completes this turn)
[X] [RB] Deploy against Highlanders from Hatvalley
[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
[X] [City] No
[X] [Refugee] Bring in a bit more than usual (-1 Stab, potential further loss, +4-5 Econ)
[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
[X] [Low] Send over assistance (Transfer 1 Econ + 1 Martial)
[X] [High] Extra tribute (+2 Prestige, +2 Wealth, probably completes this turn)
[X] [RB] Deploy against Highlanders from Hatvalley
[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
[X] [City] No
[X] [Refugee] Bring in a bit more than usual (-1 Stab, potential further loss, +4-5 Econ)
It was also costing us stability. And like you mention, the LTE damage was serious too.
Probably from gaining a new province via transfer.
We can mostly afford it in we get the Econ->Wealth pipeline back up. And I think we should do that ASAP; Econ is a lot cheaper than wealth to produce.
Honestly, I would not be opposed to double expand-econ next turn, assuming we have the LTE to afford hitting cap.
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Also +1 econ per turn.
Which is...a rounding error more or less on our level, since it doesn't change LTE and the refugees continue to drip.