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Paths of Civilization

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pblur said:
Precisely. And science will always be vulnerable to 'but you can't explain X'. Because we've never been able to explain everything. Turns out the world is COMPLICATED. (I mean, who knew, right?)

But that's no reason to shut down debate. Sometimes, when you can't explain X, it's because you're just plain wrong. And you'll never figure that out if you don't listen to people arguing with you.

Just to be clear, it's quite possible that the Xoh are more advanced than our people in some ways. For instance, we have the Jungian perspective on behavior neatly enshrined in our gods. "Alien, but knowable", "Teacher, but devourer" is a hybrid of anima and shadow. We don't really know the Xoh religion at this point, but it could reasonably enshrine a more Piajetian or Freudian perspective on psychology which could be quite handy for our Shamans.
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The Lowland Minors are not the Xoh, they are the Xoh's former whipping boys. I doubt they are advanced in anything really since most of their time is spent in subsistence farming and low intensity war.
 
Just voting in parts that I'm confident in, skipping a few stuff

[X] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)

[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)

[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)

[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
 
pblur said:
Sometimes, when you can't explain X, it's because you're just plain wrong. And you'll never figure that out if you don't listen to people arguing with you.
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Note that even a loss of religious authority, or a shift toward some of the Xoh gods, wouldn't necessarily harm LoW. If the People decided that some of those gods are better, then wow! Testing everything instead of blindly attacking outsiders really worked! Let's fuse LoW with CA and become the Borg!
 
ThrawnCA said:
Note that even a loss of religious authority, or a shift toward some of the Xoh gods, wouldn't necessarily harm LoW. If the People decided that some of those gods are better, then wow! Testing everything instead of blindly attacking outsiders really worked! Let's fuse LoW with CA and become the Borg!
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Keep in mind that per word of AN LoW itself is under some small risk. This could conveniently end with our priests deciding that testing theories is stupid and blind faith is the way to go.
 
Susano said:
Oh, of course it will help. But now, I'm not sure it will be enough in the face of RA. After all, that is how this all started. The Lowland Priests are oozing RA, simply declaring "this is so and so", while our priests are contemplating, testing, giving complex answers... in matters of the faith, the former is simply more convincing, even when it is wrong. And that is more or less exactly what the Religious Authority stat tracks.

Mysticism will help, but this may be mostly a comparison of RA stats, in which case we're screwed.
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It can't be pure or even mostly RA. Otherwise whenever a secular empire conquered a theocracy of any kind the theocracy would get to impose its values. That's nonsensical.
 
DragonParadox said:
It can't be pure or even mostly RA. Otherwise whenever a secular empire conquered a theocracy of any kind the theocracy would get to impose its values. That's nonsensical.
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No, it isn't. Because a normal empire would simply use the "crack down" option. But we want to discuss things out. With the people who probably have a higher RA, i.e. exactly what this is about - the task is even called "Religious Authority".
 
[X] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)

[X] [Low] Crack down on their priests (-1 Stability, potential war with vassal, potential +1 Religious authority)
[X] [Low] Restrict right to wage war to defensive only (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Permit their use of iron tools (Allows iron tools to be traded to vassal)
[X] [Low] Send over assistance (Transfer 1 Econ + 1 Martial)

[X] [High] Demand territory (+3 Prestige, +3 Wealth, +2 Econ, +4 Econ expansion, -1 Centralization, requires further military commitment, likely requires more actions)

[X] [RB] Deploy to assist vassal against the Swamp Folk

[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival

[X] [City] No

[X] [Refugee] Bring in a bit more than usual (-1 Stab, potential further loss, +4-5 Econ)
 
Susano said:
No, it isn't. Because a normal empire would simply use the "crack down" option. But we want to discuss things out. With the people who probably have a higher RA, i.e. exactly what this is about - the task is even called "Religious Authority".
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Counter example: Rome, it conquered plenty of theocracies, it had philosophy and no inclination to religious exclusivity yet it did not change its values like the wind.
 
DragonParadox said:
Counter example: Rome, it conquered plenty of theocracies, it had philosophy and no inclination to religious exclusivity yet it did not change its values like the wind.
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And yet, the process has already begun with us. Do note, as AN has said, that this isn't about discussing the Lowland Priests in the Lowland; this is about engaging them back at home.

Academia Nut said:
Basically you're debating them in the core territories and breaking up their secular power in the lowlands.
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(if we'd crack down on them in the lowlands and debate with them)

I think this is more telling than a RL example that might not be applicable to the game...
I would say this all has come about in the first place because of our too low RA stat.
 
Susano said:
Oh, of course it will help. But now, I'm not sure it will be enough in the face of RA. After all, that is how this all started. The Lowland Priests are oozing RA, simply declaring "this is so and so", while our priests are contemplating, testing, giving complex answers... in matters of the faith, the former is simply more convincing, even when it is wrong. And that is more or less exactly what the Religious Authority stat tracks.

Mysticism will help, but this may be mostly a comparison of RA stats, in which case we're screwed.
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Eh, theology aient blind belief. Sure your average peasant will believe stuff simply because he always did, no questions asked. But priests and the more theologically inclined spend a good part of thier lives testing, proving, explain, questioning, extrapolating, concluding and debating and all other intellectually rigorous activities. Theology is inherently dependent on rigorous Academia. To close such things actually weakens it dramatically, as it becomes dogma detached from theology, and such extremely vulnerable.

Even the Inquisition vigorously debated and questioned and counter questioned the heretics and occasionally conceded up until the last second.

The scholastic dogma of the theologians is far far more powerful than the insular and closed dogma of thier counterparts.

Only downside to it is that it's very nature breeds heresy like the plague.
 
maximillian said:
Sure your average peasant will believe stuff simply because he always did, no questions asked.
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And that is what matters. If they get converts, something on which we don't crack down, it doesn't matter what fabulously intricate theologies our priests have come up, plain and simply. I mean that is exactly what this debate is all about: The attraction of the Lowland religion is that you have priests there who simply give clear answers, who say with dogmatic certainty "this is so". It is exactly the lack of all this theological debate which is attracting converts. AN explicitly noted that in the update.
 
The ideal solution is to heavily suppress the clergy whilst engaging them in a theological battle, and only mildly suppressing the non clerical believers.
 
maximillian said:
Eh, theology aient blind belief. Sure your average peasant will believe stuff simply because he always did, no questions asked. But priests and the more theologically inclined spend a good part of thier lives testing, proving, explain, questioning, extrapolating, concluding and debating and all other intellectually rigorous activities. Theology is inherently dependent on rigorous Academia. To close such things actually weakens it dramatically, as it becomes dogma detached from theology, and such extremely vulnerable.

Even the Inquisition vigorously debated and questioned and counter questioned the heretics and occasionally conceded up until the last second.

The scholastic dogma of the theologians is far far more powerful than the insular and closed dogma of thier counterparts.

Only downside to it is that it's very nature breeds heresy like the plague.
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Our theology is not blind belief, sure. I would not be so sure abut the theology of the Lowland Minors. They have a very low surplus economy which means relatively few priests comparatively. They are also very decentralized which means the priests do not often meet and debate. The constant wars are also likely to breed conservatory and xenophobic views that are slow to change.
 
Susano said:
And that is what matters. If they get converts, something on which we don't crack down, it doesn't matter what fabulously intricate theologies our priests have come up, plain and simply. I mean that is exactly what this debate is all about: The attraction of the Lowland religion is that you have priests there who simply give clear answers, who say with dogmatic certainty "this is so". It is exactly the lack of all this theological debate which is attracting converts. AN explicitly noted that in the update.
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Intricate theology tends to appeal to the elites and notables, and if those convert the rest follow in duo time.
 
DragonParadox said:
What elites? There are a bunch of scattered villages on bad land that constantly flirt with starvation as they incessantly war with outsiders and each other. The social pyramid is likely to be rather flat out there.
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Once again, the debate is about OUR society, not about the Lowland society. We're debatting them back at home, not in the Lowlands. That's the problem: There is already an intrusion of foreign religious and cultural values happening.
 
Susano said:
Once again, the debate is about OUR society, not about the Lowland society. We're debatting them back at home, not in the Lowlands. That's the problem: There is already an intrusion of foreign religious and cultural values happening.
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Where on earth did you get that impression? These people likely have one priest per village (and remember the villages are independent), most of them can't go on month-long (or even year-long) journeys into the unknown.
 
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I reupdated the history spreadsheet for AN's changes to Econ, and, because I was feeling the itch, put together another data presentation for you guys. I also added a Turn column, which keeps track of things like midturns, admin heros, etc. to give us an even(ish) time spacing.

This is the 'net-worth' of our stat stockpile through time, color-coded by policy and with particular landmarks called out:


  • Used current stat-values instead of historical values so we don't get weird spikes when something gets cheaper (ala Iron Blooded) also because I'm lazy
  • Did not include Prestige, since it's not really a spendable stat.
 
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Academia Nut said:
Yeah. More specifically, I'm referring to the fact that they have special status within an overarching polity. Now, the HRE in general is a really bad example, but Free Cities are in no way independent, they just have more room to minister to their own needs.
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Trading a subordinate slot for +1 econ a turn looks very attractive right now. We are currently experiencing up to six stat drain right now, and only have an automatic stat gain of five.

It also solves the issue of our abysmally low centralization range. We currently only have two acceptable centralization points where we are neither close to collapsing or close to exploding. Increasing that range by 50% in the middle of a crisis would be very helpful.

Academia Nut is throwing us a bone. We should take it.
 
DragonParadox said:
Where on earth did you get that impression? These people likely have one priest per village (and remember the villages are independent), most of them can't go on month-long (or even year-long) journeys into the unknown.
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And yet they already do have converts in the RB. That is what the debate is all about, in fact.

From the update:
While this was an issue in their own territory where it was a rallying point for political issues, it actually got considerably more attention in Valleyhome where the Red Banner Company was spending a few years recovering their strength. With years of campaigning in the south and numerous brides taken in war, they had picked up a number of traits from their hosts, and the bloody minded gods from the south had followed them home. The confidence of the priests and the way the gods of the lowland seemed to speak to a warrior's life had earned many converts, and the general themes of self-sacrifice, community, and working for greater things resonated strongly with the People. While
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Also, once again, direct word of god:

Academia Nut said:
Basically you're debating them in the core territories and breaking up their secular power in the lowlands.
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(if we were to use the crackdown option)

Did you miss my last reply to you? In any case, this is about our own society!
 
@Susano So we're clear, is the point of your statements about the priests that you want to add the "crack down in the lowlands" action?
 
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DragonParadox said:
What elites? There are a bunch of scattered villages on bad land that constantly flirt with starvation as they incessantly war with outsiders and each other. The social pyramid is likely to be rather flat out there.
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The village chief, that one farmer who has the most goats, the local priest. . The richest traders in the region. Elites doesn't just mean the king and family, it just means the people who matter.
Historically it was by targeting these people that the major religions spread like wildfire.
 
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