Because stability now is better than stability later, if we find something.
Not really? Stability is stability, and we're not gonna be at the breaking point even with the worst possible rolls. Far better to be able to Survey now->Enforce next 2 turns rather than have no viable stability gain options after a single stability boost.

And Main Survey is virtually guaranteed to find something, especially with our new Survey tech that was added just this turn from the road increase. Honestly there's a chance of finding 2 things, which is why I'm hoping we got a forest from the WW province.
 
Not really? Stability is stability, and we're not gonna be at the breaking point even with the worst possible rolls. Far better to be able to Survey now->Enforce next 2 turns rather than have no viable stability gain options after a single stability boost.

And Main Survey is virtually guaranteed to find something, especially with our new Survey tech that was added just this turn from the road increase. Honestly there's a chance of finding 2 things, which is why I'm hoping we got a forest from the WW province.
Well in two turns this situation is going to be completely different. The issue people have with your line of thinking is "how many turns does this take to pay? 2? Yeah no. We are in crisis mode and something is going to explode before then."

Or possibly some other variation. I picked it to avoid negative stability possibilities(because our Legit + Stab <= 0 issue might still be a thing and negative stab is never good) and to sync cultures a bit with all our various peoples and provinces.

E: My issue with negative stab is that anxious people are generally stupid people, and a host of other issues as people start to feel the world coming apart.
 
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Our LTE is 17 right now, that's not that bad. It's enough to let us do basically everything. I agree with not freeing the city though. (edit: and dropping to 13 would start limiting our actions again)
17?

Well yes, the transferred province gives us more air, but I think we're going to want the room if we're going into a megaproject.

You raise a good criticism about the free city(Taxes ho!), but our Cent dropped for some reason. I think we are starting to see a case of Cent tolerance dropping because we are juggling to many flaming adzes through the King's office.

It also may give them advantage in the debates.
1) We know why the Centralization cap dropped, well sort of:
The trails needed improving, needed a lot of improving, and simply maintaining them wasn't going to be enough. They needed widening, to be made less meandering where possible, for gravel to be laid down as much as possible. As it was, even despite an enormous amount of effort being invested in the project they only managed to uncover just how deep the problems went. It did however improve many of the main trails, allowing for more contact with the furthest parts of the kingdom, which helped prompt the Western Wall to move one of their internal provinces more fully under the administration of the king - they needed to reorganize to account for their own spread anyway.
The reason for the admin strain in the past turn was that we thought our Centralization cap was higher than it really is, because the lack of transportation was masking the actual centralization level, especially compounded with a series of heroes and near-heroes who made things work out by power of personal leadership.

2) I'm not sure that changing the way things have always been done in the holy city would lend much immediate credibility to debate. Maybe if they had become a Free City earlier on, but it looks to the skeptical as admitting they're wrong though?

Wouldn't there be better synergy by giving the Lowlanders our farming tech and restricting them to defensive wars, instead of targeting slavery?
Okay, Lowlander issues:
[] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[] [Low] Crack down on their priests (-1 Stability, potential war with vassal, potential +1 Religious authority)
[] [Low] Restrict right to wage war to defensive only (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)

-What they are doing and why
--Human sacrifice in the name of executions.
---Appeasement of the public's stresses through execution spectacle
----Countered by Festival.
---Appeasement of Xohyr gods to avert disease and drought
----Countered by religious debate.
----Countered by Greater Sacred Forest
----Countered by Sacred Warding
----Countered by Black Soil

--Slavery in the name of half-exiles
---High demand for unskilled labor
----Countered by Mills
----Countered by Iron Tools
---Poor agricultural output in their region means that famine is common and that a greater number of undesirables is needed to maintain standards of living.
----Countered by Black Soil
----Countered by Iron Tools

--Attempting to send tribute in the form of slaves workers
---Lack of resource production.
----Countered by surveying and developing mines in the area.
----Countered by buying a period of peace where they can take Art Patronage.

--Offensive war against other polities
---Longstanding grudges require resolution.
----Countered by not being defeated for a full generation(3 main turns).
---Indefensible territory makes preemptive strike the best defense
----Countered by conquering up to the river lines to the east and west.
----Countered by breaking neighbors as a threat.
---Lowland mode of war directly translates geographical holdings into military power. The more land the more HP you have and the less military power your rivals can mobilize
----Countered by building tall and hard.
---Low quality territory makes for poor productivity
----Countered by surveying and developing mines in the area.
----Countered by buying a period of peace where they can take Art Patronage.
----Countered by Mills
----Countered by Black Soil
----Countered by Iron Tools

As such, we cannot push back against the right to offensive war without triggering a potential war. As far as their perspective goes, this is suicide.

@veekie you devil you! So sorely are we pressed for actions and you would pick the military option which explicitly states will require more actions! What fiendish pit of hell were you born from that you would espouse such thoughts!
AN mentioned that there is a chance that if we commit the Red Banner through the Hathatyn valley, that the war ends this turn. This is because the hills there are the Red Banner's strongest terrain and puts them in position to threaten the Highlander capital.
Why do people want to do Festival instead of Survey? Seriously, It makes no sense to me unless you think we need that Stability now instead of getting twice as much over the next two turns.
Which...we do? We need Stability buffer to absorb the Difficult Questions of legal reform and to suppress the religious conflicts.

Also worth noting that The Law megaproject eats Art and Mysticism. The reform probably eats the same.
Did we not just expand our forest?
Missed that!
 
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No one else seems to have considered that a Free City might move us closer to another legacy? And I am OK with our priests being more independent.
The pattern was: One of Each(Three) -> One of Each(Five) -> One of Each(???)

Extending the pattern says that the next step is seven. Free City only brings us to Six.
Free city gives +1 LTE per turn.
...it does not?
Free City will pay for it's own upkeep, but since we don't spend Econ, we cannot refund the Econ.

At present the SOLE purpose of Free City is to raise the Centralization cap. I believe the Iron Age Law Reform might make it able to take actions though.
Well in two turns this situation is going to be completely different. The issue people have with your line of thinking is "how many turns does this take to pay? 2? Yeah no. We are in crisis mode and something is going to explode before then."

Or possibly some other variation. I picked it to avoid negative stability possibilities(because our Legit + Stab <= 0 issue might still be a thing and negative stab is never good) and to sync cultures a bit with all our various peoples and provinces.

E: My issue with negative stab is that anxious people are generally stupid people, and a host of other issues as people start to feel the world coming apart.
Same here. We're going to be eating multiple stability hits because...Tax reform is coming.

Can anyone tell me with a straight face that they expect us to pass that without a stability hit?
 
[X] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)
Show the favor our gods send us
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
[X] [Low] Permit their use of iron tools (Allows iron tools to be traded to vassal)
 
We could've gone through the previous tax reform painlessly if people didn't purposely pick the hardest options.
 
Same here. We're going to be eating multiple stability hits because...Tax reform is coming.

Can anyone tell me with a straight face that they expect us to pass that without a stability hit?
If they can I'm calling them the New Host of TAXOGORGON...

*looks at 10ebbor10*

*reaches for the flamer*

*sees more*

Oh Crow... They're multiplying...

*backs away, clutching flamer*
 
We might,as long as people refrain from implementing a VAT and capital gains tax with notional interest deduction.
At the same time the easiest options also cause the worst problems in the long run. If we want to be able to choose we need to at least be able to pay for 2-3 stability hits from deliberate pain and accidental mistakes.

Assuming we won't make mistakes is...unlikely
 
At the same time the easiest options also cause the worst problems in the long run. If we want to be able to choose we need to at least be able to pay for 2-3 stability hits from deliberate pain and accidental mistakes.

Assuming we won't make mistakes is...unlikely
Plus status quo options make it worse *points to communal land management, leadership assigned*.
 
Well in two turns this situation is going to be completely different. The issue people have with your line of thinking is "how many turns does this take to pay? 2? Yeah no. We are in crisis mode and something is going to explode before then."
It becomes equivalent next turn when we take a secondary Enforce, giving us the same Stability as a Festival. Then it opens up the opportunity for another Enforce the turn after, or more roads if we would prefer that instead.

Also, this tax/unity crisis is going to be rather long-lasting, taking at least 6 turns to resolve at an absolute minimum. A minor immediate loss is easily worth it if it'll give significant pay off in 2 turns.
 
[X] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)
[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
[X] [Low] Send over assistance (Transfer 1 Econ + 1 Martial)
[X] [High] Subjugate (+5 Prestige, +5 Wealth, gain new vassal, unlikely to complete this turn)
[X] [RB] Deploy against Highlanders from Valleyhome
[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
[X] [Refugee] Let everyone know that your environment is stable (-3 Stab, potential further loss, +9-11 Econ, ???)
[X] [City] Yes (Transfers 2 Econ + 2 Econ expansion, nulls cost of maintenance for Sacred Forest)

My current vote. Gives us a bit of a cushion, lets us begin to stomp on the various fires. I'm really hoping that the True City vote lets us have a higher Cent cap.
 
It becomes equivalent next turn when we take a secondary Enforce, giving us the same Stability as a Festival. Then it opens up the opportunity for another Enforce the turn after, or more roads if we would prefer that instead.

Also, this tax/unity crisis is going to be rather long-lasting, taking at least 6 turns to resolve at an absolute minimum. A minor immediate loss is easily worth it if it'll give significant pay off in 2 turns.
You kinda missed the main thrust of my point. I do not want to risk negative stability now so I am taking the festival now.

Also that requires having the spare actions to take enforces, which I doubt.
 
Note that the update itself just said the roads are still FAR from adequate. We made headway but things are still shit.

Going to need Centralization space for that. I'd push for another Double Main if we didn't need the Law more.

If we are still at war next turn then I'd suggest
Main Law
Main Integrate Stallions(which helps pay for rushing Law right after with a Double Main Law or megaproject support)
 
[X] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)
[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
[X] [High] Demand territory (+3 Prestige, +3 Wealth, +2 Econ, +4 Econ expansion, -1 Centralization, requires further military commitment, likely requires more actions)
[X] [RB] Deploy against Highlanders from Hatvalley
[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
[X] [City] No
[X] [Refugee] Just those who come of their own initiative (Potential stab loss, +2 Econ)

Plus status quo options make it worse *points to communal land management, leadership assigned*.
Last time we had Greater Good which rewarded going against the status quo. This time we'd be spending even more stability than last time.
 
My current vote. Gives us a bit of a cushion, lets us begin to stomp on the various fires. I'm really hoping that the True City vote lets us have a higher Cent cap.
Getting a Free City will give us +1 Centralization cap and remove the 1 econ/turn cost. And cause who knows what other effects later on down the line.

We don't have that. We need to get (one or possibly both) of the Palace and Census first before we can unlock that megaproject.
 
[X] [High] Subjugate (+5 Prestige, +5 Wealth, gain new vassal, unlikely to complete this turn)

Can I sell you on Demand Territory instead?
Another vassal is more likely to retain its' culture and make the whole value conflict costs even worse.

Whereas if we take their Hatvalley mines they're basically out of the war, because we'd have control over their strategic bronze supply
 
You know, with positive Stability and the option for a reactive festival, we could fire the superweapon and take a -3 refugee hit. Why? Because we have enemies on all sides, and this would take a nice bite out of all of them. Plus, if we run out of Wealth, we cannibalise Econ, so more of that is nice.

And I'm curious about the ???. Tech/social advancement? Chance of immediately evolving CA? Disruption of enemy plans?
Adhoc vote count started by ThrawnCA on Jul 7, 2017 at 5:03 AM, finished with 69623 posts and 50 votes.
 
Note that the update itself just said the roads are still FAR from adequate. We made headway but things are still shit.

Going to need Centralization space for that. I'd push for another Double Main if we didn't need the Law more.

If we are still at war next turn then I'd suggest
Main Law
Main Integrate Stallions(which helps pay for rushing Law right after with a Double Main Law or megaproject support)
Can't do the Law till we have the Palace and the Census I think.

Oh the joys of taxes.

You know, with positive Stability and the option for a reactive festival, we could fire the superweapon and take a -3 refugee hit. Why? Because we have enemies on all sides, and this would take a nice bite out of all of them. Plus, if we run out of Wealth, we cannibalise Econ, so more of that is nice.

And I'm curious about the ???. Tech/social advancement? Chance of immediately evolving CA? Disruption of enemy plans?
All of the above. At the same time. With fire and cookies. And flaming cookies :V
 
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