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Paths of Civilization

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veekie said:
Can I sell you on Demand Territory instead?
Another vassal is more likely to retain its' culture and make the whole value conflict costs even worse.

Whereas if we take their Hatvalley mines they're basically out of the war, because we'd have control over their strategic bronze supply
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I'm hoping to play the HK priest class against the Lowland Minor priests. Let them argue on stuff in the debates, and act as an arbiter and superpower so we can decide where we want to take our civ.

Can I sell you on refugees? We're almost certainly going to eat a Spiritual shift this turn. And our most vulnerable trait right now is CA. We need to reinforce it with a lot of refugees at this point.
 
Eh? Tax issue is bleeding us wealth points but ST or North going independent will destroy our legacy. So it's better to focus on keeping down administration workload and upgrade roads.

Please turn away from prolonged war? Or adding more management complexity with another vassal?
 
People should consider that having too much territory is one of the primary causes of our current set of problems. They should consider that twice before they decide that cessation of more territory is the thing they want from the Highlanders.
 
BungieONI said:
Can't do the Law till we have the Palace and the Census.

Oh the joys of taxes.
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Well, probably want a reserve of Stability for kicking towards the end.

Palace - 5-7 Actions. -1 Econ and Art
Census - 4-6 Actions. -2 Mysticism
The Law V2 - 4(?) Actions. -1(?) Art and Mysticism

Projected costs:
Palace - 5-7 Econ and Art. Canal refunds 1 Art and Mysticism(which becomes Art from overflow)
Census - 8-12 Mysticism. Library refunds 4-6 Mysticism.
The Law V2 - 4(?) Art and Mysticism

We don't have enough Art to finish the Palace in one turn unless we have excess art from somewhere(i.e. Festival) But if we do have the Art, we can switch to Megaproject Support and 1 turn it.

Census is a bit harder. We need enough Mysticism there that we'd be unable to generate Art for The Law. It might be worthwhile to crank out a third Library first, because that fully refunds the Mysticism cost of Census, which means that while we're building Census, the Mysticism continues to overflow into Art.

So thoughts on this?
Turn 1:
Main - Library(Art -4, Mysticism -4, refunds 3 Mysticism, 1 Econ)
Main - Integrate Stallion Tribes(Econ +?, Econ Expansion +?, Art +?(they're paying for the Temple somehow) Martial +8)
Provinces - Continue beating off the lowlanders on Offense

Turn 2
Main - Palace
Secondary - Megaproject Support
Secondary - Fire extinguishing actions, War Mission or generate more Art/Wealth depending on circumstances
Provinces - Palace x3

Turn 3
Finish Palace with Provinces, initiate Census(since provinces WILL finish the palace regardless)

With 3 Libraries the provinces will refund the entire cost of the Census allowing us to go straight into Law on turn 4
 
Hangwind said:
Can I sell you on refugees? We're almost certainly going to eat a Spiritual shift this turn. And our most vulnerable trait right now is CA. We need to reinforce it with a lot of refugees at this point.
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CA is...pretty secure though? We've taken shitloads of refugees in the past 3 turns(some Stab3 hits even), we're debating foreign practices as though they might have merit and we had just elected a foreign king somehow.

Honorable Death is the most fragile at present...which I'm not too worried about losing. Its cool but not core.
Powerofmind said:
People should consider that having too much territory is one of the primary causes of our current set of problems. They should consider that twice before they decide that cessation of more territory is the thing they want from the Highlanders.
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The thing is they'd keep coming. If we can take their Hatvalley mines then they have to stop since they can't fight anymore.

Its trading off the admin problems(which had been temporarily mitigated) in exchange for having to only defend two sides at once rather than 3.
 
So we now have religious matters piled atop our administrative issues... Then it is time. Activate Turtle Mode!

[X] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)
NO to stability loss, so the first choice is out. The last choice feels like we're bowing out of the fight so I'll take the possibility of increasing our Religious Authority over having it overwritten by the blood gods of the Lowlands.

[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
[X] [Low] Send over assistance (Transfer 1 Econ + 1 Martial)
Our wayward turtle tail. We can probably sneak in lessons on why they should follow the law in teaching them all that as well as provide Ymaryn presence with our dudes. Their warmongering ways shall be a focus another day.

[X] [High] Humiliate (+1 Prestige, completes immediately)
"Burn it all," Phygrif said after a moment. Sorry, I don't know what came over me. Where was I? Ah yes, turtle mode. "We don't have time to do this proper..." Wiser words were never...wait a minute.

[X] [RB] Remain at rest
So, the Red Banner has picked up some unsavory worshiping practices during their adventure. Some time with the forests and our temples should do them good. Why does this remind me of Darkest Dungeons...

[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
Stability YES!

[X] [City] Yes (Transfers 2 Econ + 2 Econ expansion, nulls cost of maintenance for Sacred Forest)
I want to ease the pain of our administrators. For too long we've piled matters onto them without giving them the right tools or support they need to work efficiently, such as the Census. We can keep the next true city, after appropriate infrastructure (Palace) has been built. To people who think further stressing our clerks is a good idea...*side-long glance at hammer*

[X] [Refugee] Just those who come of their own initiative (Potential stab loss, +2 Econ)
To minimize possibility of negative stability.
 
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veekie said:
Well, probably want a reserve of Stability for kicking towards the end.

Palace - 5-7 Actions. -1 Econ and Art
Census - 4-6 Actions. -2 Mysticism
The Law V2 - 4(?) Actions. -1(?) Art and Mysticism

Projected costs:
Palace - 5-7 Econ and Art. Canal refunds 1 Art and Mysticism(which becomes Art from overflow)
Census - 8-12 Mysticism. Library refunds 4-6 Mysticism.
The Law V2 - 4(?) Art and Mysticism

We don't have enough Art to finish the Palace in one turn unless we have excess art from somewhere(i.e. Festival) But if we do have the Art, we can switch to Megaproject Support and 1 turn it.

Census is a bit harder. We need enough Mysticism there that we'd be unable to generate Art for The Law. It might be worthwhile to crank out a third Library first, because that fully refunds the Mysticism cost of Census, which means that while we're building Census, the Mysticism continues to overflow into Art.

So thoughts on this?
Turn 1:
Main - Library(Art -4, Mysticism -4, refunds 3 Mysticism, 1 Econ)
Main - Integrate Stallion Tribes(Econ +?, Econ Expansion +?, Art +?(they're paying for the Temple somehow) Martial +8)
Provinces - Continue beating off the lowlanders on Offense

Turn 2
Main - Palace
Secondary - Megaproject Support
Secondary - Fire extinguishing actions, War Mission or generate more Art/Wealth depending on circumstances
Provinces - Palace x3

Turn 3
Finish Palace with Provinces, initiate Census(since provinces WILL finish the palace regardless)

With 3 Libraries the provinces will refund the entire cost of the Census allowing us to go straight into Law on turn 4
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I like the skeleton.
Don't think we are going to be able to stick to this, but I want to try.

So fucking thankful right now that the North/South split has had a sock shoved in it.
 
So, immediately after we finish protecting ourselves from an environmental crisis, we get smacked with a tax crisis and a religious crisis. How many centuries has it been since the Ymaryn actually had the chance to do something besides respond to a crisis?
 
veekie said:
The thing is they'd keep coming. If we can take their Hatvalley mines then they have to stop since they can't fight anymore.
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What I don't get is, you're arguing for the hat valley mines but you're voting to base the Red Banner out of Valleyhome, instead of relieving Hat valley and striking at the mines?
 
veekie said:
With 3 Libraries the provinces will refund the entire cost of the Census allowing us to go straight into Law on turn 4
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Where are you getting the 3rd library from? Mind, 1 library+temple is enough that we don't lose any Mysticism from the megaproject.

As to your plan... where are you getting the necessary econ and/or stability from? With even 1 True City you're coming up short, let alone 2.
 
Glassware said:
What I don't get is, you're arguing for the hat valley mines but you're voting to base the Red Banner out of Valleyhome, instead of relieving Hat valley and striking at the mines?
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Nope he's going for Hatvalley.


Godwinson said:
So, immediately after we finish protecting ourselves from an environmental crisis, we get smacked with a tax crisis and a religious crisis. How many centuries has it been since the Ymaryn actually had the chance to do something besides respond to a crisis?
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Business as usual really. The threesome that was nearly a foursome is new but, Hoooooooo boi is it exciting!

In particular there was one turn I remember where something was not on fire. Let me see...

Ahah! It was during <High Times> when Gon "The Weed Man" showed up. We literally had to be high as kites not to find a problem with something. :V

E: Anyway I got to go. See you folks in a bit.
 
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BungieONI said:
I like the skeleton.
Don't think we are going to be able to stick to this, but I want to try.

So fucking thankful right now that the North/South split has had a sock shoved in it.
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For now!
But its a skeleton.

Glassware said:
What I don't get is, you're arguing for the hat valley mines but you're voting to base the Red Banner out of Valleyhome, instead of relieving Hat valley and striking at the mines?
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I'm going for Hatvalley Red Banners. Take those mines and they'd have to buy their bronze fron us if they want to fight the Swamp Folk coming up from the south.
notgreat said:
Where are you getting the 3rd library from? Mind, 1 library+temple is enough that we don't lose any Mysticism from the megaproject.

As to your plan... where are you getting the necessary econ and/or stability from? With even 1 True City you're coming up short, let alone 2.
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If we were slowboating the Census, then yes, Temple covers it. But we have to rush due to Taxes, so we need 3 libraries to refund 2 spent Mysticism per turn so that TEMPLE can make Art. That and spending 12 Mysticism in one turn to refund 12 the next is kind of cool...

Econ currently is going to be coming from Megaproject Support policy taking Expand Econ(its factored in there) and the Canal Econ payout for building Libraries and Palaces.

We'd probably need a Mid Turn Expand somewhere in the middle to cover for unexpecteds however.

And of course, taking the HK mines would help. Not essential, but very helpful
 
SpeckofStardust said:
Veekie rushing the taxes is not a smart idea.
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*back for a second*

He does not mean rushing the taxes themselves, he knows that is stupid, what he means is rushing to get to unlocking The Law, which is how we actually deal with them or even interact with them beyond them sucking away our wealth.

E: See where he says "Rush due to the taxes".

*gone again*
 
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SpeckofStardust said:
Veekie rushing the taxes is not a smart idea.
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NOT rushing isn't an option anymore. We'd go bankrupt really fast if we don't.

We can maintain this drain for 3 turns safely, then we have 1-3 turns after that where we are increasingly less able to build the necessary projects to end it anymore. We need to have the Palace and Census finished in 4 turns tops to even see how bad the law reform will hurt us. We also need that third library done before census to pay for it

Thats why pump up on Stability for now and brace for acceleration.
 
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veekie said:
NOT rushing isn't an option anymore. We'd go bankrupt really fast if we don't.

We can maintain this drain for 3 turns safely, then we have 1-3 turns after that where we are increasingly less able to build the necessary projects to end it anymore. We need to have the Palace and Census finished in 4 turns tops
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The Census should not be rushed period.
 
Academia Nut said:
War Goals for Highlanders
[] [High] Humiliate (+1 Prestige, completes immediately)
[] [High] Extra tribute (+2 Prestige, +2 Wealth, probably completes this turn)
[] [High] Demand territory (+3 Prestige, +3 Wealth, +2 Econ, +4 Econ expansion, -1 Centralization, requires further military commitment, likely requires more actions)
[] [High] Subjugate (+5 Prestige, +5 Wealth, gain new vassal, unlikely to complete this turn)
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I honestly don't understand why people would want to vote for either the second or third option, as they're shittier versions or both option 1 and option 4.

It's not worth continuing the war for the rest of the turn (and even then, only probably completes it this turn), just for 1 prestige and 1 wealth when we are currently fighting other conflicts. Thus as I mentioned, it just seems to be a worse version of option 1 as if you finish the war right now you can deploy the army elsewhere. Whether that's the lowlands vassal incase they declare war giving us safety, whether that's against the nomads as they've returned once more, or against the enemies of our lowland vassal so they can acquire actual territory and deny it to others which will both help them economically, but also militarily given how the lowlands wages war. All of those options are better than 1 prestige and 1 wealth, particularly given it's not assured the High Kingdom war would finish.

Then there's the third option; why we do want to administer territory when we've been warned that's what we shouldn't really be doing given how we're struggling and how people have indicated we should integrate the Stallion Tribes? It doesn't make sense going for it given how difficult it would be to conquer it, how we would struggle to manage it, and how it just creates an actual problem in the High Kingdom wanting it back thus meaning we'd have future war problems from them.

Like above, it would just be better to go full bore given the difference in military actions to vassalize them compared to taking territory shouldn't be that great given in this option they wouldn't lose any territory. This is notable given in real life, and when not considering SV players, vassalization was a thing that was accepted and as Academia Nut previously mentioned; he believed we would have just submitted to that Nomad Heroic Hoard rather than fighting. This would give us the benefit of not actually having to manage the territory so we can pursue other things, Academia Nut has mentioned we can slowly take the various options like the lowlands over time so we don't need to change them outright immediately, our traits mean that they'd be unlikely to rebel if we don't actually cause it ourselves, their military threats are limited due to us surrounding them, and as Rwylllna stated the most likely part of our Kingdom to secede and start a cascade would be Hatriver thus the High Kingdom help us here too.
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by pblur on Jul 7, 2017 at 5:38 AM, finished with 69640 posts and 51 votes.
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On a side note, why do people think that taking more refugees will strengthen Cosmopolitan acceptance. We have love of Wisdom, which means we look at things logically, or at least try to. Things that work are done again, things that don't work are abandonned.

If refugees keep causing problems (see: Stability Loss), then Love of Wisdom will tell us to get rid of them.
 
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