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Paths of Civilization

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veekie said:
As in, it doesn't affect LTE, so this is half a secondary action's value per turn here.

I feel that adding a True City, taking the hit of -2 Econ and -2 LTE, is the bigger problem here. We do not suffer from low econ because it's the cheapest stat to generate, but we DO suffer significantly from lowering LTE, which has always been the actual problem with maintaining enough Economy for use. With the switch to Wealth, we don't really pend much Economy anymore, and can obtain sufficient with even one Main Expand a turn fairly often
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We can solve the LTE issue by integrating the stallions.

We are currently at 17 LTE, and when we got a new province this turn it have us +8 LTE, so that is 25 LTE to play with. Even if we lose 2-4 LTE for the city (not sure which it is; does transfering Econ get us econ expansion back? I.e. is the cost -2 Econ, -2LTE, or -2 Econ, -4LTE?), that still leaves us with more than 20, and without climate damage we aren't going to be dropping much.

As far as not depending on economy too much, you aren't wrong - but having enough econ to transform into wealth is valuable. We want to get to that point if we can, and once we do +1 econ will be as good as +1 wealth.
 
DakkaMania said:
What about the Stallion Temple?
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It takes only a Main action. We can finish it on a mid turn if we can find the Art(we can, if we had the Library, because on Turn 4 we should have 4 excess art from Mysticism overflow due to never actually SPENDING Mysticism ever) and Econ. We should have enough of both if Integrating the Stallions transfers their stats to us.
10ebbor10 said:
The Western Wall sicked one of their provinces onto us.
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Integrating provinces lowers Centralization, not the cap. Something else did that. Likely to be the problem revealed by building the roads.
 
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DakkaMania said:
What about the Stallion Temple?
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It would be REALLY nice to do the Stallion Temple and stick a library on it (instead of another library in Sacred Forest ala Veekie's plan) but I don't know if we'll have the stats or actions to do it. We'll have to see, I could totally see an option of finishing the Stallion Temple next midturn (ie, we integrate them next full turn, they had started the temple so we get an option to finish it in the midturn). Note we only really need another library before we do the Census, and we should really do the Palace first, so we have a bit of time.
 
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Umi-san said:
@Abby Normal as far as I can tell we still have dominance, unless your table was the old one?
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Ooops, good catch; i put the sheets in the wrong order in the diff checker, and got confused X-)
So yeah, we actually gained dominance in glass, so the province that got transferred to us was probably the one with their Glassworks, so yay! :)

I'll edit my earlier post, but here's the correct diff checkers:
Diff Checker (Civ Sheet)
Diff Checker (Civ Sheet BBCode)
 
veekie said:
Integrating provinces lowers Centralization, not the cap. Something else did that. Likely to be the problem revealed by building the roads.
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Source?

That seems like the complete opposite from what would be expected. Integrating provinces into the main governement means putting them under central control, which would hence increase centralization.

At the same time, the massive bureaucracy required from an ever larger empire hampers how much micromanaging you can do, thus lowering the cap.

For that reason, Integrating the Stallion Tribes seems like a terrible idea. It would further overload our already failing bureaucracy.

Edit : Cities are direct example of this happening. Putting the city in it's own free State would increase the cap, because we need less bureaucracy.
 
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veekie said:
It takes only a Main action. We can finish it on a mid turn if we can find the Art(we can, if we had the Library, because on Turn 4 we should have 4 excess art from Mysticism overflow due to never actually SPENDING Mysticism ever) and Econ. We should have enough of both if Integrating the Stallions transfers their stats to us.

Integrating provinces lowers Centralization, not the cap. Something else did that. Likely to be the problem revealed by building the roads.
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In general, yes, new provinces lower Centralization not the cap. But I fear that we are growing too big for our admin tech, so that more lands under our direct control also lower the centralization cap - or at least, it CAN lower the cap.
 
gutza1 said:
So, what's the plan for next turn?
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I'd like to integrate the stallions as our first action.

For a second action, it will depend on what is going on. We might need it for a crisis, and if so, we'll be working on that. If we aren't in crisis mode, I'd be interested in Roads, Expand Econ, Library #3, or Restoration of Order as possible second actions.
 
@Academia Nut i'm sure others have asked, but i didn't see an answer anywhere; do our advisors and king and whatnot think that the current reduction in centralization tolerance (since 4 is now gold) is likely from:
1. increased size (new provinces)
2. our new vassal?
3. Sacred forest getting even more difficult to handle
4. The tax issues
6. 'just' general administrative stress
5. some completely different thing?
 
10ebbor10 said:
Source?
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Adding new provinces lower Centralization by 1, always.

The only things we know that explicitly lower the Cap are:
-Government system change to more delegated authority forms.
-True Cities

Centralization cap going down basically is a symbol of increasing administrative difficulty.
One possible explanation is that we've actually been over cap Centralization for a while but didn't notice until we put the roads in.
Another is that centralization cap can be lowered by raw population managed stressing the administration, though the thresholds are unclear. This is reflected by the True City cap drop.

@Academia Nut
Care to clarify what caused the Centralization Cap to go down?
 
You have a hard time tracking what changes the centralization caps, but adding more provinces at this point seems to be risk lowering the cap. It's also possible that the cap has changed multiple times in the past but you didn't know where they were, and you have a two yellow warning this time.
 
Academia Nut said:
You have a hard time tracking what changes the centralization caps, but adding more provinces at this point seems to be risk lowering the cap. It's also possible that the cap has changed multiple times in the past but you didn't know where they were, and you have a two yellow warning this time.
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Oh...so aligning with the most recent events, the roads revealed a whole bunch of messes including thinking the cap was higher.

Still, that shifts away from trying to permanently solve the highlanders. I'm changing vote to cash pinata them. We'd take their tin mines on the rematch.
 
3 centralization max cap and 1 centralization min cap seems like Dwarf Fortress levels of FUN!

Either we need to build the palace before integrating the Stallions, or we need to make the Sacred Forest into a Free City.
 
Academia Nut said:
You have a hard time tracking what changes the centralization caps, but adding more provinces at this point seems to be risk lowering the cap. It's also possible that the cap has changed multiple times in the past but you didn't know where they were, and you have a two yellow warning this time.
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How badly stressed does the admin advisor think the system would be if we, for example, didn't make Sacred Forest a True City, and build Main Trails one more time before adding new provinces?
 
Rakuhn said:
3 centralization max cap and 1 centralization min cap seems like Dwarf Fortress levels of FUN!

Either we need to build the palace before integrating the Stallions, or we need to make the Sacred Forest into a Free City.
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Naw, we have just barely enough room to Integrate the Stallions here even if they lower the cap again(since Centralization 3 is considered high enough to ignore most environmental woes already), as we need the resources from them to build the palace quickly and reliably enough and we really need to get their temple site under our control.
 
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Academia Nut said:
It might crash? Maybe? Don't know.
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Good to know...
[X] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)
[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
[X] [Low] Send over assistance (Transfer 1 Econ + 1 Martial)
[X] [High] Extra tribute (+2 Prestige, +2 Wealth, probably completes this turn)
[X] [RB] Deploy against Highlanders from Hatvalley
[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
[X] [City] No
[X] [Refugee] Bring in a bit more than usual (-1 Stab, potential further loss, +4-5 Econ)
 
veekie said:
Naw, we have just barely enough room to Integrate the Stallions here even if they lower the cap again(since Centralization 3 is considered high enough to ignore most environmental woes already), as we need the resources from them to build the palace quickly enough and we really need to get their temple site under our control.
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We do, but we would have a lot more wiggle room if we made Sacred Forest a Free City. True, we couldn't build another library there if we did, but it seems wasteful to have two libraries there. If we build a Stallion temple, we can stick a library there instead. And since we only really want a library before we do the census we have a couple to a few turns to do that anyway.
 
[X] [City] Yes (Transfers 2 Econ + 2 Econ expansion, nulls cost of maintenance for Sacred Forest)

Yeah lets offload this unnecessary bueracracy.
 
veekie said:
Naw, we have just barely enough room to Integrate the Stallions here even if they lower the cap again(since Centralization 3 is considered high enough to ignore most environmental woes already), as we need the resources from them to build the palace quickly enough and we really need to get their temple site under our control.
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Or we could make a Free Ciry and not have to walk yet another knife's edge when we are facing a three-front war, potential civilization collapse, potential vassal rebellion (lowland minors), relihious tensions, and a tax crisis.

I think there is agreement that the subordinate slot is a non factor. I also think that there isnt any fear of them increasing the chances of collapse. That leaves us with paying 2-4 LTE for a 25% increase to our centralization cap (50% increase to non-stressed range) and +1 econ a turn.

It is a great deal.
 
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I think we need to prioritize the Palace and the Census (maybe even The Law(Iron Age)) before we expand any further.
Adhoc vote count started by gutza1 on Jul 7, 2017 at 1:23 PM, finished with 69840 posts and 79 votes.
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Dieb said:
We do, but we would have a lot more wiggle room if we made Sacred Forest a Free City. True, we couldn't build another library there if we did, but it seems wasteful to have two libraries there. If we build a Stallion temple, we can stick a library there instead. And since we only really want a library before we do the census we have a couple to a few turns to do that anyway.
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Now would, however, be a very bad time to discover the problems of Free Cities(IRL they were pretty big sources of political and cultural strain because they create a big exception to all the rules and are their own microcosm of practices, leading to divergence in beliefs). Theres a reason why while they were very profitable, few lords liked them beyond the taxes they gave.

I'd probably want to at least do the Palace first before we Free it, though my preference is after the Law reform(which may enable the Free City to take actions), that's probably excessive. Seriously, you don't want to make Free Cities while you're losing your grip on overall authority. It only accelerates the problem even if it relieves the strain in the short term. You make them while you're stable, and that lets you make sure that the city's free administration follows the rules when they start.

Two libraries in one city isn't that redundant though. it just means each library specializes in a different field.
 
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veekie said:
Now would, however, be a very bad time to discover the problems of Free Cities(IRL they were pretty big sources of political and cultural strain because they create a big exception to all the rules and are their own microcosm of practices, leading to divergence in beliefs). Theres a reason why while they were very profitable, few lords liked them beyond the taxes they gave.

I'd probably want to at least do the Palace first before we Free it, though my preference is after the Law reform(which may enable the Free City to take actions), that's probably excessive. Seriously, you don't want to make Free Cities while you're losing your grip on overall authority. It only accelerates the problem even if it relieves the strain in the short term.

Two libraries in one city isn't that redundant though. it just means each library specializes in a different field.
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It's redundant when we only have one other library in our entire civilization. And while it could be nice to do it after the Palace or the Law reform, I just don't think we can afford to wait right now. Hopefully we'll get the Palace, Census, and the Law reform quite soon, but in the meantime we need the centralization wiggle room.
 
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