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Paths of Civilization

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How to deal with foreign gods?
[X] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)

How to deal with the lowlanders? (Pick as many as you like)
[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Crack down on their priests (-1 Stability, potential war with vassal, potential +1 Religious authority)
[] [Low] Restrict right to wage war to defensive only (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
[X] [Low] Permit their use of iron tools (Allows iron tools to be traded to vassal)
[X] [Low] Send over assistance (Transfer 1 Econ + 1 Martial)

War Goals for Highlanders
[X] [High] Extra tribute (+2 Prestige, +2 Wealth, probably completes this turn)

Deploy the Red Banner
[] [RB] Remain at rest
[] [RB] Deploy north to guard against nomads
[] [RB] Deploy against Highlanders from Valleyhome
[] [RB] Deploy against Highlanders from Hatvalley
[X] [RB] Deploy to assist vassal against the Swamp Folk

Trouble's brewing, how to prepare?
[] [React] Main Expand Econ
[X] [React] Main Build Mills
[] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
[] [React] Main Expand Forests
[] [React] Main Survey

You're having trouble with the management of cities, make Sacred Forest a Free City?
[] [City] Yes (Transfers 2 Econ + 2 Econ expansion, nulls cost of maintenance for Sacred Forest)
[X] [City] No
Lets burst Sacred Forest from True City by getting too much Econ

Everyone else isn't coping with the weather well
[X] [Refugee] Just those who come of their own initiative (Potential stab loss, +2 Econ)
 
2xMachina said:
Lets burst Sacred Forest from True City by getting too much Econ
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Um...is that really desirable? We need True Cities to preserve Econ slots. Without them, we have to spend more actions on mills, or boats, or even expansion (problematic ATM).
Adhoc vote count started by ThrawnCA on Jul 7, 2017 at 7:48 AM, finished with 69696 posts and 61 votes.
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ThrawnCA said:
Didn't vote for it myself. That's just my guess at others' reasoning.
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Hmm. My two cents in the reasoning.

There isn't any limit to those actions, so they might just figure they'd get all the options and deal with the lowlands once and for all? It's a fair assumption that all the gifts and demands will balance themselves out.
 
ThrawnCA said:
Um...is that really desirable? We need True Cities to preserve Econ slots. Without them, we have to spend more actions on mills, or boats, or even expansion (problematic ATM).
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Well, here's the actions that actually use two Econ (and so make having a second True City useful):
[Main] Walls
[Main] Expand Forest
[Main] More Boats
[Main/Secondary] Plant Poppies

That's not too bad; we COULD just make some LTE to compensate. Also, it will actually move Boats and Forest to LTE neutral, since both of them currently expand LTE.

Not sure I want this plan, but it's not unworkable.
 
ThrawnCA said:
Um...is that really desirable? We need True Cities to preserve Econ slots. Without them, we have to spend more actions on mills, or boats, or even expansion (problematic ATM).
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Hmm, I don't want them to mess up our Centralization tolerance.
Sure, yes, we could do with more Econ savings, but... Not sure it is worth the management problems.

Rather, I don't want to Free City it. But gen'ing more LTE is good, and bursts True City.

BTW, what's LTE? :p
 
2xMachina said:
Hmm, I don't want them to mess up our Centralization tolerance.
Sure, yes, we could do with more Econ savings, but... Not sure it is worth the management problems.

Rather, I don't want to Free City it. But gen'ing more LTE is good, and bursts True City.

BTW, what's LTE? :p
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Long Term Econ; it's Econ + Econ slots. So long as we have enough True Cities, any econ-spending action recycles into econ slots, and expand Econ recycles it back to Econ. This is the mechanical key to building Tall in this system.

LTE is the total number of slots in that cycle. If it's too big, true cities fall apart and break the cycle, making you lose LTE on high Econ actions. If it's too small (and there are more aqueducts than current true cities) the true cities form again and rebuild the cycle.
 
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I must say, I doubt popping a city will come without cost. Most likely, we'll loose prestige or something like that.
 
[X] [RA] Stamp down on all of this (-2 Stability, +2 Religious Authority)

- never ever compromise your beliefs!
 
I figure we have fairly good odds of winning that discussion.

We have had Mysticism overflow for in-game, decades, if not a century already. We have maxed out Love of Wisdom, Libraries and all kinds of advanced sciences for the era.

As AN noted, if it was something we already know, we stomp them flat. Their only recourse is to appeal to blind faith. And that stands on sandy foundations.

We beat the climate. We got Iron. We have never had a civil war. We are the King of the Hill. We are rich beyond the dreams of avarice by the lowlands standards.

The gods don't just favour us.

They fucking adore us.

The only thing we lack is a clear wargod.

We still bitchslapped everyone that ever picked a fight with us.


So clearly, we are doing something right.
 
10ebbor10 said:
I must say, I doubt popping a city will come without cost. Most likely, we'll loose prestige or something like that.
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We had WoG on it; we lose some Econ and Econ slots. I didn't mention it here, because it's roughly inline with the 'breaking the cycle' effect and I was trying to be concise. ;)
 
[X] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
[X] [Low] Send over assistance (Transfer 1 Econ + 1 Martial)
[X] [High] Extra tribute (+2 Prestige, +2 Wealth, probably completes this turn)
[X] [RB] Remain at rest
[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
[X] [City] Yes (Transfers 2 Econ + 2 Econ expansion, nulls cost of maintenance for Sacred Forest)
[X] [Refugee] Just those who come of their own initiative (Potential stab loss, +2 Econ)
Adhoc vote count started by gutza1 on Jul 7, 2017 at 8:42 AM, finished with 69710 posts and 63 votes.
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Adhoc vote count started by gutza1 on Jul 7, 2017 at 8:42 AM, finished with 69710 posts and 63 votes.
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The problem with the religious debate is that we most likely beat them in mysticism...

...but changes are they have us beat in religious authority.
 
Susano said:
The problem with the religious debate is that we most likely beat them in mysticism...

...but changes are they have us beat in religious authority.
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Per AN, both our maxed Mysticism and ungodly Prestige will help us in these debates. Which makes sense, since 'So... where's YOUR fabulous temple again?' is an effective argument.
 
pblur said:
'So... where's YOUR fabulous temple again?' is an effective argument.
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Of course, in an ideal world, it wouldn't be. It's not proper proof of anything except our wealth and industry and having lots of metal. But that's OK, because it's only an argument to be used as a counter to their unjustified assertions. If they do actually debate properly, seeking to prove what they claim, we have word of AN that our priests flatten them.
Adhoc vote count started by ThrawnCA on Jul 7, 2017 at 8:50 AM, finished with 69714 posts and 63 votes.
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ThrawnCA said:
Au contraire; we obtained Love of Wisdom in the first place by testing the Sacred Warding, of all things. Losing that would have been horrifying. But in a fair test, the truth won.
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Precisely. And science will always be vulnerable to 'but you can't explain X'. Because we've never been able to explain everything. Turns out the world is COMPLICATED. (I mean, who knew, right?)

But that's no reason to shut down debate. Sometimes, when you can't explain X, it's because you're just plain wrong. And you'll never figure that out if you don't listen to people arguing with you.

Just to be clear, it's quite possible that the Xoh are more advanced than our people in some ways. For instance, we have the Jungian perspective on behavior neatly enshrined in our gods. "Alien, but knowable", "Teacher, but devourer" is a hybrid of anima and shadow. We don't really know the Xoh religion at this point, but it could reasonably enshrine a more Piajetian or Freudian perspective on psychology which could be quite handy for our Shamans.
 
@veekie If we're going to pick a serious fight with the HK, wouldn't it be worth pulling on their Econ a bit harder via refugees? Might speed up our military efforts.

I know you want to preserve Stability, but right now we're looking at a Wealth drain, so more Econ is helpful. The Palace needs Econ too.
 
pblur said:
Per AN, both our maxed Mysticism and ungodly Prestige will help us in these debates. Which makes sense, since 'So... where's YOUR fabulous temple again?' is an effective argument.
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Oh, of course it will help. But now, I'm not sure it will be enough in the face of RA. After all, that is how this all started. The Lowland Priests are oozing RA, simply declaring "this is so and so", while our priests are contemplating, testing, giving complex answers... in matters of the faith, the former is simply more convincing, even when it is wrong. And that is more or less exactly what the Religious Authority stat tracks.

Mysticism will help, but this may be mostly a comparison of RA stats, in which case we're screwed.
 
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